I consider myself an apatheist. I don't know if there is a God, and I don't care. I think many people think that atheists are actively rejecting God and trying to get other people to do the same. I think many people think that agnostics are people that don't want to come out to the harsher interpretation of atheist.

I find that many believers are people that would rather rely on tradition than think for themselves. They like the community of their organized religion, and don't care to take it any further. For me, there is room for everyone until they try to legislate their belief systems, then I do have to get up off the couch.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

We're more efficient at treating each other more compassionately too -- consider the end of slavery, the advent of minority rights, advances in medical science. We humans are a strange species, but overall, we are getting better, not worse

You are making your claims based upon a very small sample. Not a good approach.

No, it's based on a book by cognitive psychologist, Steven pinker. The better angels of our nature

Interesting, I wonder how he squares this with his previous book "The Blank Slate" where he argues that in the nature versus nurture contest, nature wins. The nature part of the equation is in our DNA, which changes very slowly. Our DNA is essentially what it was 100,000 years ago.

If he is arguing that changing social, and governmental structure, and the increased flow of information due to technology is forcing not to act on their base instincts, I can buy that. People haven't really changed they are just being forced by circumstances to behave better.

Yes, that's basically his premise, that the "better angels" of our nature are winning out over our baser instincts (which still exist), because of advanced social policies, etc.

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous] [/quote]

Perhaps the problem was that you were praying for your faith to strengthen --- what were you actually DOING to strengthen your faith? You were just waiting and hoping for something to strike you, to rejuvenate your faith? I don't think that's how it works at all. A relationship with God and Christ is just that -- a relationship. If I told my DS that I wasn't sure how I felt about him any more and that I was going to sit around and wait for him to impress me so that my love and faith in him would be restored -- and he'd better get to work on it -- what do you think would happen?[/quote]

NP here:

You clarified that you meant DH above instead of DS, but I believe you more accurately reflect the situation in your first statement. Let me reframe the situation for you. Your DS is lost and you know if he doesn't find you, he will fall into a lake of fire. You hear him calling, "Mommy, where are you? I don't see you anywhere. I can't find you." And you keep quiet and say to yourself, "If he really wanted to find me he'd look harder and work for it more."

As a parent, I don't care how much of a pain in my rear my child is being, I will come when called even when there isn't a real danger and the child is just scared. Yet, God is supposed to love us more than we love our kids? And we're supposed to be able to call upon Him with more trust than our kids have when they call on us? And when many, many people call on God and beg Him to do anything to let us know He's there, we get nothing? I don't want to hear that God [i]is[/i] screaming out to those people and they just can't hear because of lack of faith or sin or whatever. It's GOD! If He really wanted to, He could put a burning bush out there or blind people in a vision like with St Paul. There's precedent. So, if people genuinely seek and do not find, then I have to think that either nothing is there or nothing is there that wants to answer. And from there, I think if God is there and doesn't want to answer, how is that love? We are supposed to be little children in comparison to God. Who puts the burden on their child to instigate and maintain a relationship with them? [/quote]

Point well made, thanks. You effectively handled the "you're not doing it right" argument but there's still the "God works in mysterious ways" argument.

In an attempt to give the benefit of the doubt to well-meaning Christians who use these arguments to comfort and influence doubters, it could be that they have had an experience that they interpreted as God/Jesus entering their heart and thus assume (and hope) that it's available to anyone who really wants it.

Let's say that what they don't realize is that this kind of "transcendent" experience is common among humans and unassociated with a particular religion or with religion at all. It can happen - or not- to many kinds of people under many kinds of circumstances.

Let's say, again looking for a compassionate explanation for this behavior, that what they also don't realize is that such an assurance that God will enter your heart if you really want it is not at all comforting to someone who has tried but has not had that experience. Instead it can make them feel worse -- inadequate or hopeless, unloved and doomed.

So, I ask well-meaning believers to consider all of this before you decide to assist people who have not found what you think you have. In your attempt to save their eternal soul, you may be making their life here on earth miserable. Maybe you can take heart in thinking that a truly loving God will provide them a last minute revelation before they die.

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous] [/quote]

Perhaps the problem was that you were praying for your faith to strengthen --- what were you actually DOING to strengthen your faith? You were just waiting and hoping for something to strike you, to rejuvenate your faith? I don't think that's how it works at all. A relationship with God and Christ is just that -- a relationship. If I told my DS that I wasn't sure how I felt about him any more and that I was going to sit around and wait for him to impress me so that my love and faith in him would be restored -- and he'd better get to work on it -- what do you think would happen?[/quote]

NP here:

You clarified that you meant DH above instead of DS, but I believe you more accurately reflect the situation in your first statement. Let me reframe the situation for you. Your DS is lost and you know if he doesn't find you, he will fall into a lake of fire. You hear him calling, "Mommy, where are you? I don't see you anywhere. I can't find you." And you keep quiet and say to yourself, "If he really wanted to find me he'd look harder and work for it more."

As a parent, I don't care how much of a pain in my rear my child is being, I will come when called even when there isn't a real danger and the child is just scared. Yet, God is supposed to love us more than we love our kids? And we're supposed to be able to call upon Him with more trust than our kids have when they call on us? And when many, many people call on God and beg Him to do anything to let us know He's there, we get nothing? I don't want to hear that God [i]is[/i] screaming out to those people and they just can't hear because of lack of faith or sin or whatever. It's GOD! If He really wanted to, He could put a burning bush out there or blind people in a vision like with St Paul. There's precedent. So, if people genuinely seek and do not find, then I have to think that either nothing is there or nothing is there that wants to answer. And from there, I think if God is there and doesn't want to answer, how is that love? We are supposed to be little children in comparison to God. Who puts the burden on their child to instigate and maintain a relationship with them?

Anonymous wrote:But I do understand your other points.

Thanks -- I think what you're saying is this is not the way you see life. And I'm sure that's true of some, perhaps many, religious people.

I know it's not the case for a lot of people - and that's it's very clearly taught in some Christian denominations that this life is secondary to eternal life with Jesus in Heavan and that our earthly existence is really all about making yourself worthy for eternity.

But I do understand your other points.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Atheists don't think they know everything about the world, they just don't believe in God

My point is that we really don't know how the universe works or was created. All are theories have wholes in them. We are not knowledgeable enough to prove the existence or non-existence of God. Both those that believe there is a God and those that don't are operation from a believe system that cannot be proven.

Atheists are quite aware of that. I find that people are confused about atheists -- even smart, educated people like physicists. I suspect they were told that atheists claim to "know" things they couldn't possibly know, because it's easier to laugh them off that way. There's not much difference between atheists and agnostics, as for as I can see -- and not one that matters much -- both do not believe in god. It seems to be more of a comfort level thing. "Agnostic" is a softer-sounding term, for sure.

NP. I've always thought agnostics were those who were atheist but didn't have the nerve to claim the title.

I think that's the case with some people. For others, the term atheist seems inappropriate and harsh - in part because that's how the media portrays it - "angry atheists" or people who believe in nothing or who believe life is meaningless or people who think they know everything (like the physicist above).

That will change as more people who don't believe in God call themselves atheists and others can see that they are not weirdos. Of course some atheists are angry, but so are a lot of other people, about a lot of other things! And atheists believe in a lot of things -- just not god -- and they tend to think life is more meaningful that religious people, because atheists think this is the only life we have and are grateful for it.

I have to disagree with this part. I think life is an amazing gift that God has given to all of us. I value it in and of itself, not as a waystation to heaven. It's the first think I thank God for every day I open my eyes.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Atheists don't think they know everything about the world, they just don't believe in God

My point is that we really don't know how the universe works or was created. All are theories have wholes in them. We are not knowledgeable enough to prove the existence or non-existence of God. Both those that believe there is a God and those that don't are operation from a believe system that cannot be proven.

Atheists are quite aware of that. I find that people are confused about atheists -- even smart, educated people like physicists. I suspect they were told that atheists claim to "know" things they couldn't possibly know, because it's easier to laugh them off that way. There's not much difference between atheists and agnostics, as for as I can see -- and not one that matters much -- both do not believe in god. It seems to be more of a comfort level thing. "Agnostic" is a softer-sounding term, for sure.

NP. I've always thought agnostics were those who were atheist but didn't have the nerve to claim the title.

I think that's the case with some people. For others, the term atheist seems inappropriate and harsh - in part because that's how the media portrays it - "angry atheists" or people who believe in nothing or who believe life is meaningless or people who think they know everything (like the physicist above).

That will change as more people who don't believe in God call themselves atheists and others can see that they are not weirdos. Of course some atheists are angry, but so are a lot of other people, about a lot of other things! And atheists believe in a lot of things -- just not god -- and they tend to think life is more meaningful that religious people, because atheists think this is the only life we have and are grateful for it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Atheists don't think they know everything about the world, they just don't believe in God

My point is that we really don't know how the universe works or was created. All are theories have wholes in them. We are not knowledgeable enough to prove the existence or non-existence of God. Both those that believe there is a God and those that don't are operation from a believe system that cannot be proven.

Atheists are quite aware of that. I find that people are confused about atheists -- even smart, educated people like physicists. I suspect they were told that atheists claim to "know" things they couldn't possibly know, because it's easier to laugh them off that way. There's not much difference between atheists and agnostics, as for as I can see -- and not one that matters much -- both do not believe in god. It seems to be more of a comfort level thing. "Agnostic" is a softer-sounding term, for sure.

NP. I've always thought agnostics were those who were atheist but didn't have the nerve to claim the title.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Atheists don't think they know everything about the world, they just don't believe in God

My point is that we really don't know how the universe works or was created. All are theories have wholes in them. We are not knowledgeable enough to prove the existence or non-existence of God. Both those that believe there is a God and those that don't are operation from a believe system that cannot be proven.

Atheists are quite aware of that. I find that people are confused about atheists -- even smart, educated people like physicists. I suspect they were told that atheists claim to "know" things they couldn't possibly know, because it's easier to laugh them off that way. There's not much difference between atheists and agnostics, as for as I can see -- and not one that matters much -- both do not believe in god. It seems to be more of a comfort level thing. "Agnostic" is a softer-sounding term, for sure.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Atheists don't think they know everything about the world, they just don't believe in God

My point is that we really don't know how the universe works or was created. All are theories have wholes in them. We are not knowledgeable enough to prove the existence or non-existence of God. Both those that believe there is a God and those that don't are operation from a believe system that cannot be proven.

That's not an accurate assessment. Despite the limitations of our scientific knowledge, we know a whole lot about our world and the universe. Our scientific knowledge is ever expanding as we continue to push ahead with our research and conduct rigorous experimentation to validate/invalidate our theories. The same is not true of the belief in God. The domain of God is ever decreasing as time goes on. What men used to attribute to God, we now attribute to physical laws of science. Those who still believe are now far more fluid and interpretive about the nature of God, rather than the more rigid and deterministic view of God that was held for centuries. This position shift was out of necessity since our expanding knowledge about the world so directly contradicted the so called evidence that people used to argue for the existence of God. To put science on equal footing as creationism or belief in God with the logic that neither offers a complete explanation is to ignore the vast evidence that science is correct versus how little evidence remains that God exists.

Anonymous wrote:

Atheists don't think they know everything about the world, they just don't believe in God

My point is that we really don't know how the universe works or was created. All are theories have wholes in them. We are not knowledgeable enough to prove the existence or non-existence of God. Both those that believe there is a God and those that don't are operation from a believe system that cannot be proven.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

We're more efficient at treating each other more compassionately too -- consider the end of slavery, the advent of minority rights, advances in medical science. We humans are a strange species, but overall, we are getting better, not worse

You are making your claims based upon a very small sample. Not a good approach.

No, it's based on a book by cognitive psychologist, Steven pinker. The better angels of our nature

Interesting, I wonder how he squares this with his previous book "The Blank Slate" where he argues that in the nature versus nurture contest, nature wins. The nature part of the equation is in our DNA, which changes very slowly. Our DNA is essentially what it was 100,000 years ago.

If he is arguing that changing social, and governmental structure, and the increased flow of information due to technology is forcing not to act on their base instincts, I can buy that. People haven't really changed they are just being forced by circumstances to behave better.

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]To the OP, that empty feeling you have is the spirit God gave you that was made for a relationship with him. Please don't listen to all on this board who say it gets better with time. That feeling is a deadened spirit that atrophies without God. It might feel OK, but it is not OK. True freedom comes through the forgiveness of Christ and a relationship with him. I can tell you this from personal experience, of 40 years ignoring the things of God, and then the immense joy, peace and contentment, as well as sense of purpose, that God filled me with when I put my trust in Christ. I suspect you have "come to terms with the possibility" that you're an atheist because you have some questions about God that you find intractable. They are not intractable, but they appear so to an unbelieving heart. I have prayed that you will be able to find a kind and loving Christian person who will talk to you patiently about your thoughts and that God will help you with them. Jesus said all we need is faith the size of a mustard seed (meaning really small) to find him, which means you can even pray with just the slightest hope of their being a God if you are open to him revealing himself to you, and he will. God calls all of us to himself. Some ignore the call, and some heed it. Those who heed it will find how great he is. Please ask one of these people before you come to any more terms with disbelief. God bless.[/quote]

Not OP but I can tell you that I spent probably a good 4 years praying for my faith to strengthen, to not become an agnostic or atheist. And going to church well past the poInt of believing hoping for something to strike me and rejuvenate my faith. But all that praying did nothing as any belief I had slipped away bit by bit until I could no longer go to church without feeling like a complete hypocrite. And then I pretty much came to a sense of peace at being an agnostic who leans toward atheism, a state I've been in these last 15 or so years. Oh and when my kids were born I went back to church for a few years just in case, but nope, nothing there. [/quote]

Perhaps the problem was that you were praying for your faith to strengthen --- what were you actually DOING to strengthen your faith? You were just waiting and hoping for something to strike you, to rejuvenate your faith? I don't think that's how it works at all. A relationship with God and Christ is just that -- a relationship. If I told my DS that I wasn't sure how I felt about him any more and that I was going to sit around and wait for him to impress me so that my love and faith in him would be restored -- and he'd better get to work on it -- what do you think would happen?[/quote]

Sorry, meant DH, not DS![/quote]

So you're saying that prayer doesn't work?

Anonymous wrote:I have issues with all the major religions that I have studied, but I could never be an atheist, agnostic yes. I am a physicist. I have been around too long and seen too many experts be wrong to think we really know much about the universe. It takes a lot of hubris to think you know all there is to know about any subject, let alone the creation of the universe. We can't even agree on how many dimensions there are.

I don't know what it takes to have a happy and fulfilling life, but I suspect there are more religious people that feel that way than none religious.

I know many people that attend Christian churches, that are non-believers, because they believe that the teaching of Christ are a good model for how to live your live.

I know too many wealthy people to think that materialism is the answer. I think giving is part of the answer to a happy and fulfilling life.

Atheists don't think they know everything about the world, they just don't believe in God