Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

My feeling about all this - especially for all the "just figure out what is wrong with your marriage" types: just spit it out: you don't want to fuck us any longer. Don't play games - be an adult, own up and admit what you want/don't want and face the consequences. Sounds an awful lot like what they preach about cheaters, doesn't it?

I agree. I am the DW who believes that sex is an act of caring, love and fulfilling the basic needs of your partner. I also think that people who do not WANT to have sex with their spouses are not attracted to them. This is different from people who CANNOT have sex with their spouses - that can be due to medical or circumstantial reasons.

Sex is a pleasurable, comforting and relaxing activity. Even the plain vanilla kind. It is a great way to strengthen the marital bond.

People may live in a pleasant sexless marriage for companionship and security, but it is like having a roommate you get along with. In such a marriage if cheating has not occurred it is mainly from inertia and lack of opportunity. It certainly is not a testament to any great romantic love within marriage.

I just think you guys are both completely right.

Anonymous wrote:

My feeling about all this - especially for all the "just figure out what is wrong with your marriage" types: just spit it out: you don't want to fuck us any longer. Don't play games - be an adult, own up and admit what you want/don't want and face the consequences. Sounds an awful lot like what they preach about cheaters, doesn't it?

I agree. I am the DW who believes that sex is an act of caring, love and fulfilling the basic needs of your partner. I also think that people who do not WANT to have sex with their spouses are not attracted to them. This is different from people who CANNOT have sex with their spouses - that can be due to medical or circumstantial reasons.

Sex is a pleasurable, comforting and relaxing activity. Even the plain vanilla kind. It is a great way to strengthen the marital bond.

People may live in a pleasant sexless marriage for companionship and security, but it is like having a roommate you get along with. In such a marriage if cheating has not occurred it is mainly from inertia and lack of opportunity. It certainly is not a testament to any great romantic love within marriage.

Before I had our DC (7 months ago) I made sure to have sex at least every other day: my husband'a libido is high and, yes, I did it out of a sense of obligation. Since I was cleared to have sex since the baby, we've averaged about once a week (maybe a little less). Only one of those times was I really "into it."

I do consider myself very sexual (and in fact find myself checking out strange men) but am not, at this moment, very attracted to my husband. I feel tired (of course!) and taken for granted, and feel constantly annoyed by my husbands lack of follow through/ willingness to do things around the house/ general ability to do things. It's hard to get horny when I just feel pissed off all the time.

Frankly, I would love to fuck a stranger - I'm sure he would too. But as married people - people who made a commitment to each other - we are slogging through and must work together to get to a better place, sexually and otherwise.

Anonymous wrote:Re: having sex when you don't want to. But the point is, if you are in a loving marriage, you should very rarely 'not want to.' No, I don't mean your libido is set at a constant go-go-go, but wanting to have sex with your spouse doesn't have to mean 'want to because I will expire from hormonal overload if I don't get laid.' It can also mean 'wanting to because having sex makes my partner happy and making him/her happy makes me happy' (or 'physical closeness to my partner makes me happy').

That's what I don't get about people who say they don't want to have sex with a spouse - even if your libido isn't raging, don't you get pleasure from making a loved one happy? (If you don't love/like your spouse, you have other problems in the marriage than just lack of sex).

To use an example from my own marriage (which has so far lasted 15+ years). Sometimes DH wants it and I give the 'go ahead' because even if my libido isn't raring to go, I enjoy giving him pleasure - it makes me happy and feel good. And sometimes it's the other way around.

Honestly, sex isn't always just about your pleasure, it's about enjoying your partner's pleasure too.

You're absolutely right. But there seems to be a vicious cycle of resentment in marriages like this. Some women (in this thread and others like it) have said their husbands are all over them the second they walk in the door. Its pushy, they get defensive, and eventually they're dreading the advances before they even get home. Shooting down the guy before he even tries.

Now I'm a DH and the higher libido partner. We talked about it again a month or so ago, we both promised to try harder to meet each others' needs, we had sex three times in 1 week, then it stopped and its been another 3+ weeks now with her period due any day (period = no sex). I've tried (again) to give the emotional support she wants, physical touching outside the bedroom and not just to initiate sex, and also four obvious attempts to initiate sex that were all rejected for a variety of reasons. So now I feel angry, resentful, and fighting an internal struggle to give extra effort to do the little things that are important to her. Obviously, throwing up my hands and ignoring her needs will not get me laid tonight. But I just don't have the emotional stamina to try again with a high probability of failure. In short, shooting us both down hours before I'll get home- not unlike the LD woman who dreads her husband's advances before she walks in the door.

Death by a thousand cuts.

And I don't have the energy to hope for anything better. At least not right now. I'm depressed and broken.

What kind of person neglects the needs of of their spouse? I will tell you what happened in my marriage. When my kids were little, I did all the night wakeups and feedings, and the vast majority of the infant care. My DH was well-rested and got 8 hours of sleep per night and never helped out around the house. I worked two jobs, did all the house stuff and never slept more than two hours in a row for a year because my babies both had colic and reflux, but my husband "needs his sleep more than I do." Yeah, I didn't feel much like having a lot of sex with him, because I was tired during those years. He was frustrated with it and I offered solutions that included him taking over some of the work so that I could be more rested and therefore have energy for sex. He would do it for a day or two, get his "reward" and then go back to having me do everything.

The truth of the matter is that I can't do everything. I run out of energy, and if he wasn't willing to do his share, then I was not willing to get absolutely no sleep so that I could "meet his emotional needs" for more sex. Now that our kids are sleep better, we have more sex again. I like sex! but if DH had tried to blame me for pushing him away, I would have eviscerated him. His lazy ass not helping enough was the reason he wasn't getting any, not me. And he knew it because I would tell him explicitly. He just didn't want to change, and that's on him.

Re: having sex when you don't want to. But the point is, if you are in a loving marriage, you should very rarely 'not want to.' No, I don't mean your libido is set at a constant go-go-go, but wanting to have sex with your spouse doesn't have to mean 'want to because I will expire from hormonal overload if I don't get laid.' It can also mean 'wanting to because having sex makes my partner happy and making him/her happy makes me happy' (or 'physical closeness to my partner makes me happy').

That's what I don't get about people who say they don't want to have sex with a spouse - even if your libido isn't raging, don't you get pleasure from making a loved one happy? (If you don't love/like your spouse, you have other problems in the marriage than just lack of sex).

To use an example from my own marriage (which has so far lasted 15+ years). Sometimes DH wants it and I give the 'go ahead' because even if my libido isn't raring to go, I enjoy giving him pleasure - it makes me happy and feel good. And sometimes it's the other way around.

Honestly, sex isn't always just about your pleasure, it's about enjoying your partner's pleasure too.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a DW and in my long marriage, we have been in situations of drastic uneven libidos (both sides) at times. However, I believe that the needs of the higher libido spouse trumps that of the non-sexual spouse, at any given period, in a marriage. Why? Because I consider sex a basic need of human beings. I would rather fulfill my spouse's need for sex than let him go without, and vice versa.

For me it is an act of caring and love. The same as wiping the drool off your spouse's chin when you are aged and old.

At the very least you need to be able to have frank discussions about it. This is as much a marital issue that needs to be solved TOGETHER, as figuring out your budget, or kid's schooling option. Seriously.

I completely and totally disagree with this. What you are saying is basically that people should have sex, even if they don't want to, because they owe it to someone to have sex. It's not at all the same as wiping away drool when you're old. If you are okay with having sex when you don't want to in order to keep your husband happy, that's great for you, but please do not assume that all of us would be okay with that situation. I know that I would absolutely not be.

I am not PP, but I agree completely. I wish someone had put this to me so plainly years ago. Though I'm not sure I would have listened.

I withheld from my husband for decades. Not entirely, just a little here and there. I didn't even realize I was doing it. My libido was much lower than his and I controlled every aspect of our sex life. I felt a lot like you. Why should I be coerced into having sex when I'm not in the mood? What about my needs? For privacy, respect, sleep, whatever. The best argument I told myself was that having sex out of "pity" would be dishonest and disrespectful to my husband. Seriously. My arguments sounded good to me at the time, and meanwhile, I was slowly killing my husband's self esteem and frankly, his love for himself and for me. It took an affair and lots of therapy for me to realize this. I would never justify cheating, and I don't blame myself for my husband choosing this path. But I very much blame myself for failing to see how important sex was to him and my role in eroding our relationship. Death by a thousand cuts is just as deadly to a marriage. If you have the power to help your spouse feel loved and appreciated, why would you withhold that?

And to add, through therapy I realized my own twisted take on intimacy, obligation, commitment, control, etc. It's been really freeing to discover my own physical needs for the first time. That they don't need to be tied to anything else. It's been great. And we've both become much more loving as a couple.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a DW and in my long marriage, we have been in situations of drastic uneven libidos (both sides) at times. However, I believe that the needs of the higher libido spouse trumps that of the non-sexual spouse, at any given period, in a marriage. Why? Because I consider sex a basic need of human beings. I would rather fulfill my spouse's need for sex than let him go without, and vice versa.

For me it is an act of caring and love. The same as wiping the drool off your spouse's chin when you are aged and old.

At the very least you need to be able to have frank discussions about it. This is as much a marital issue that needs to be solved TOGETHER, as figuring out your budget, or kid's schooling option. Seriously.

I completely and totally disagree with this. What you are saying is basically that people should have sex, even if they don't want to, because they owe it to someone to have sex. It's not at all the same as wiping away drool when you're old. If you are okay with having sex when you don't want to in order to keep your husband happy, that's great for you, but please do not assume that all of us would be okay with that situation. I know that I would absolutely not be.

I am not PP, but I agree completely. I wish someone had put this to me so plainly years ago. Though I'm not sure I would have listened.

I withheld from my husband for decades. Not entirely, just a little here and there. I didn't even realize I was doing it. My libido was much lower than his and I controlled every aspect of our sex life. I felt a lot like you. Why should I be coerced into having sex when I'm not in the mood? What about my needs? For privacy, respect, sleep, whatever. The best argument I told myself was that having sex out of "pity" would be dishonest and disrespectful to my husband. Seriously. My arguments sounded good to me at the time, and meanwhile, I was slowly killing my husband's self esteem and frankly, his love for himself and for me. It took an affair and lots of therapy for me to realize this. I would never justify cheating, and I don't blame myself for my husband choosing this path. But I very much blame myself for failing to see how important sex was to him and my role in eroding our relationship. Death by a thousand cuts is just as deadly to a marriage. If you have the power to help your spouse feel loved and appreciated, why would you withhold that?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Divorce is a more honest, respectful solution than cheating and blaming your spouse for it.

PP here. Respectfully disagree that divorce is the better way in all occasions. I also have an AP and our relationship allows sanity for me without getting divorced.

You are being dishonest with yourself and living a lie. Give your wife the respect she deserves and all the knowledge you hold, including the lengths you've gone to get the affection you seek. She may divorce you, or she may decide to work on the marriage. Confronted with this decision several years ago, I chose the latter and we're a happier family now. Your wife deserves to be a part of this conversation. You are fooling yourself if you think you've really tried to express your needs. Cheating is the ultimate form of passive aggression, and cheaters, by definition, are not good communicators. My DH would be the first to admit this, though we've both become much better at truly hearing and honoring each other through this. You've chosen the most cowardly avenue possible and continue to justify your behavior to yourself. If and when your wife and kids discover your affair, you won't be able to use your logic to escape their disillusionment in the man you've chosen to be. Statistically, cheaters rarely imagine the damage they inflict on others. They truly believe they are preserving their marriages by getting some on the side. This is not a new or enlightened argument. Just a really selfish and cowardly one.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was responding to specific posts, on any of the however many threads that are active about this topic right now, that specifically say that people (usually wives) should have sex more often than they want to and put their partner's need to have sex over their desire not to do that. I cannot get past the coercive nature of this. I have been in this situation, and I often felt pressured or coerced. I do not ever want to feel that way again. There are also specific posts saying that sex is a thing that is "owed" - not that sex is a crucial part of a healthy marriage, but that it is a thing that is owed in a particular quantity, and that a spouse who is unwilling to provide the sex in the quantity required is being selfish. I cannot get past the manipulation there either. There are other ways to frame these ideas than the language of coercion and manipulation. Posters on this topic on DCUM today have chosen the language of coercion and manipulation willfully and repeatedly. I don't know if any of them are you or not.

I have 2 points/questions to make about this post:

1) You are saying however often the wife wants sex, regardless of how infrequent, that is it and anything beyond that level is pressure/coercion. What if the the couple (wisely) began having sex before marriage, established a mutually compatible frequency, which continues on into marriage and several years beyond. Then, many years down the road, perhaps after a few kids, the wife now decides that's just too much sex and suddenly she only "wants it" 1/10 as often. Is this reduction OK? Can I make a similar 90% reduction in how I meet one of your important needs?

2) Does this "only as often as I want it" extend to other needs too? For example, let's say that you (like many women) want to share details about your day with me.. pretty much every single day. But I (deep down) only want to "hear about your day" at most once per month. So are you cool with me putting on headphones each time you approach, except for the 1X per month when I really want to hear about it?

I'm the PP. My point, which I have apparently been making unsuccessfully, is that sex is different than the other things you describe. I am not saying that it's not emotionally manipulative to withhold sex (though in most cases it seems like it's not "withholding" in a spiteful way but simply not being interested in it at all). What I'm saying is that coercing another person to have sex in other contexts is actually criminal. It would be great if every marriage involved two people who really enjoyed having sex with each other and did it regularly, such that lukewarm sex was rare and everyone was having their needs met. In the absence of that, I admit that I prioritize "not being sexually coercive or manipulative" over "not being emotionally coercive or manipulative." I understand that people do not agree with that, but since I'm not married to them, I don't actually care about that all that much, because at the end of the day, how any individual feels about sex is only really relevant to them and the person they're having sex with.

If I feel my needs aren't being met, then as a responsible adult, I owe it to both of us to clearly communicate my need.
If you then want to perceive my efforts to communicate as "coercion" or "manipulation" well then I think you have an unnecessarily defensive view of normal communication in a relationship.
Regardless, you are of course free to continue ignoring my needs.
But don't be surprised if I (eventually) stop meeting YOUR needs, and I go elsewhere to have my needs met.
The above is true for sex or any other marital need.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let me revise: I just said I thought I was a "good catch," and I guess I mostly do think that on an objective level. But I feel so utterly unattractive usually, knowing that the person who sees the most of me on a daily basis doesn't want to touch me with a ten-foot pole. It can really be a mind fuck over time.

DW here. I was there for years. The rejection and resultant feeling of unattractiveness is just awful. I am so sorry. After 8 years of it, I told DH that I was not going to continue in the relationship the way it was and I was going to start seeing a therapist to figure out what I wanted. He was very upset but after a couple of days offered to go to couples therapy. We have an amazing therapist and I am seeing my own therapist and I am struggling royally with all of they resentment and anger that has built up over the years. To his credit DH is trying what is probably his best but I don't know if I can get over how neglectful he was of my feelings and sexual needs. Sorry to share my sob story but just wanted to say that I can imagine how you are feeling and that I am so sorry.

You put up with it for 8 years?!

it was not TOTALLY sexless for the whole time, probably more like 6 of those years were technically sexless or almost borderline. the emotional withdrawal started 8 years ago.