Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:How do you think we were created? Do you believe that everything that happens is random and jut a matter of chance? And finally, how do you cope? especially when there is so much injustice done, how do you rationalize that?

OP here. I believe that human beings evolved over millions of years from less complex organisms to what we are today. I do believe a that life is very random. I work a lot with statistics and numbers so I see this often in my professional life. Maybe it's biased my personal life as well but I doubt it. I think a lot of people aren't comfortable with randomness and the idea that there is someone controlling everything and looking out for them is incredibly reassuring. Is that reality though? I would argue no, it's not.

How do I cope? Injustice, sad to say, is a part of life but so is successful, beauty, love, friendship, etc. You've got to take the good with the bad. I'm very fortunate in that I have a lot of love from family and friends that's helped me in times past when things have been hard.

Thank you OP for answering. I also love science and statistics, who knew? The problem comes when one tries to take the scientific method and apply it to things it wasn't meant for, like philosophy or religion. In Islam we accept divine revelation as a source of proof as well because we believe in the truthfulness of the Messenger (saws) to deliver the message of God.

Even if you don't believe in divine revelation, the Qur'an itself commands humans to ponder over Creation and to reflect over it, and to let that guide them to Allah. It even provides arguments against atheists. For example, in Surat Toor and other places. There is another place where Allah offers 4 possibilities for the provenance of Creation - will update the answer if I find it.

Lastly, if you apply Bayes Rule to find the probability that everything came into being just on its own and try to find the posterior probability of every single coincidence and complexity and start multiplying them together, you have a vanishing probability of everything just happening on its own. You can make it as small as you like when you keep adding events to the chain. This is a probabilistic proof so it doesn't count as an absolute proof.

"We cannot prove to an atheist the existence of Allah. In fact we cannot prove the existence of Allah to anyone. We can at most find evidence to support our claims, but in the end it comes to "belief".

An analogy occurs in mathematics, where people ask, can we prove all the correct statements? The answer is no and it is proven by Godel's incomplete theorem. That an axiomatic system capable of arithmetic is either complete or consistent. In plain words there are always statements that are true but we cannot prove. To believe in Allah is to take as an axiom the existence and uniqueness of Allah. It is the basis upon which we do rational reasoning, and we do not do reasoning on that, if you already chose your axiom. But then of course different people choose different axioms. An atheist's axioms are by definition different. Therefore the Qur'an itself is a miracle, but only if you believe so."

Now going back to the Injustice question, I guess I didn't phrase it correctly. What I wanted to know was how do you accept the inequalities, injustices in this world if you do not believe in a Higher Being? For instance, as a Muslim, I believe in Allah, and because of that belief, I also believe in divine judgment and divine justice. I believe that we will each have our day in court, where all of our deeds will be measured. Everybody will be rewarded for every atom of good and every atom of evil they have done. So when I see an evil person, who has an amazing life in spite of all the evil they ar doing, and it looks to the outside world that they are getting away with it, I am comforted in knowing that there is divine Justice and one day they will have to respond to those deeds. So, what I'm trying to understand is for someone who doesn't believe in that, how do you rationalize, explain to yourself why bad things happen to good people, and why good things happen to bad people? Do you just believe that it's still all random, and life is just unfair? Thank you

Anonymous wrote:I have a question for the respectful atheist, however I am an atheist as well, so all are invited to answer.

Why do I resist telling my religious family members that I am an atheist? I never took my children to church, so that's a big hint. But we live far away from them, so it's hardly ever come up.

Why am I afraid of upsetting them, when they have no problem sending me religious books and talking to my now grown up children about religion?

Because you are not so sure of your believes? If you are confident that you found the truth and the path of life in atheism, you will be shouting about it. Stating your believes not going to upset anyone, as long as you not going to push your agenda on them. Being afraid to state your believe is immature.

Are you offended or upset about receiving those books? Just politely ask them not to send it to you. If your kids are grown up, they can choose for themselve if they want to talk to their relatives about religion or not, dont get in the middle.

Anonymous wrote:I have a question for the respectful atheist, however I am an atheist as well, so all are invited to answer.

Why do I resist telling my religious family members that I am an atheist? I never took my children to church, so that's a big hint. But we live far away from them, so it's hardly ever come up.

Why am I afraid of upsetting them, when they have no problem sending me religious books and talking to my now grown up children about religion?

Maybe it will change slowly over time, in small steps. That's what I find -- and sometimes I'm caught by surprise and fumble and regret it afterwards. Perhaps you are used to being "religious" to your family -- it's the way you related to them. You're less used to being non-religious. Now that it's on your mind, try to be aware of openings to mention your changed beliefs -- for instance, if someone says something assuming you're religious, try to remember to say things like "I'm really not religious anymore" in an off-handed way. If you're not fast enough on your feet -- there's always the next time!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an atheist who celebrates in December with a tree and gifts, traditional family foods, etc., I understand why Christians might prefer the rest of us celebrate these traditions with some name other than Christmas but you can't deny there is a cultural holiday in the U.S. that gets called Christmas and that even many jewish people celebrate as a holiday for children. I don't think it's correct to call those people inconsistent.

Or just accept that in the face of the complexities of life we are all inconsistent about some things.

It's not a religious holiday to me. Thus, no inconsistency.

I think it is similar to showing up at a gay wedding reception and just dancing and drinking the night away while denying that they are legally married and talking the other 364 days/ Year about how much homosexuality is wrong

Perfect analogy? No. But that is similar to why it feels wrong to those of us who have faith in a way

I've celebrated Christmas as a believer and a non-believer and it feels the same to me -- lots of colored lights and decorations, seasonal music and special foods, time set aside for family. I even go to midnight mass - there's something so special about going out so late at night for a once-a-year event. It didn't occur to me that people who believe that Christ was born then would resent others participating in the season, so much of which is not belief-based.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The Bible says "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." So my question is, I know you're certain that there's no One out there, but if you're wrong, have you truly thought about what an eternity in Hell will be like?

I know this is why many don't believe, but that is why Christ said, "Repent, and believe the Gospel." (Mark 1:15)

Thank you for answering this. I ask this sincerely.

Not the OP, but also an atheist. I was brought up in a church, and the god I learned about there was forgiving and loving. If I am wrong, I don't actually believe I am going to hell. I think that if there was a god, the one I'd want there to be would be forgiving and judge me based on my morality and good works, not faith or lack of faith.

So I think I'll be fine, whether I believe or not.

This is actually a very Catholic thought process

Episcopalian, too.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an atheist who celebrates in December with a tree and gifts, traditional family foods, etc., I understand why Christians might prefer the rest of us celebrate these traditions with some name other than Christmas but you can't deny there is a cultural holiday in the U.S. that gets called Christmas and that even many jewish people celebrate as a holiday for children. I don't think it's correct to call those people inconsistent.

Or just accept that in the face of the complexities of life we are all inconsistent about some things.

It's not a religious holiday to me. Thus, no inconsistency.

I think it is similar to showing up at a gay wedding reception and just dancing and drinking the night away while denying that they are legally married and talking the other 364 days/ Year about how much homosexuality is wrong

Perfect analogy? No. But that is similar to why it feels wrong to those of us who have faith in a way

If you left out the 364 days of propagandizing and just spoke of one whose own religious beliefs do not include gay marriage, but who respects a friend and wishes to celebrate a happy occasion despite their differences, then I think the analogy would be much closer.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an atheist who celebrates in December with a tree and gifts, traditional family foods, etc., I understand why Christians might prefer the rest of us celebrate these traditions with some name other than Christmas but you can't deny there is a cultural holiday in the U.S. that gets called Christmas and that even many jewish people celebrate as a holiday for children. I don't think it's correct to call those people inconsistent.

Or just accept that in the face of the complexities of life we are all inconsistent about some things.

It's not a religious holiday to me. Thus, no inconsistency.

I think it is similar to showing up at a gay wedding reception and just dancing and drinking the night away while denying that they are legally married and talking the other 364 days/ Year about how much homosexuality is wrong

Perfect analogy? No. But that is similar to why it feels wrong to those of us who have faith in a way

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The Bible says "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." So my question is, I know you're certain that there's no One out there, but if you're wrong, have you truly thought about what an eternity in Hell will be like?

I know this is why many don't believe, but that is why Christ said, "Repent, and believe the Gospel." (Mark 1:15)

Thank you for answering this. I ask this sincerely.

Not the OP, but also an atheist. I was brought up in a church, and the god I learned about there was forgiving and loving. If I am wrong, I don't actually believe I am going to hell. I think that if there was a god, the one I'd want there to be would be forgiving and judge me based on my morality and good works, not faith or lack of faith.

So I think I'll be fine, whether I believe or not.

This is actually a very Catholic thought process

I have a question for the respectful atheist, however I am an atheist as well, so all are invited to answer.

Why do I resist telling my religious family members that I am an atheist? I never took my children to church, so that's a big hint. But we live far away from them, so it's hardly ever come up.

Why am I afraid of upsetting them, when they have no problem sending me religious books and talking to my now grown up children about religion?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an atheist who celebrates in December with a tree and gifts, traditional family foods, etc., I understand why Christians might prefer the rest of us celebrate these traditions with some name other than Christmas but you can't deny there is a cultural holiday in the U.S. that gets called Christmas and that even many jewish people celebrate as a holiday for children. I don't think it's correct to call those people inconsistent.

Or just accept that in the face of the complexities of life we are all inconsistent about some things.

It's not a religious holiday to me. Thus, no inconsistency.

17:40 again. I apologize if my defense of inconsistency appeared to indicate that I was validating the charge that it's inconsistent for an atheist to join in the season of peace on earth and good will toward men (and women too).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an atheist who celebrates in December with a tree and gifts, traditional family foods, etc., I understand why Christians might prefer the rest of us celebrate these traditions with some name other than Christmas but you can't deny there is a cultural holiday in the U.S. that gets called Christmas and that even many jewish people celebrate as a holiday for children. I don't think it's correct to call those people inconsistent.

Or just accept that in the face of the complexities of life we are all inconsistent about some things.

It's not a religious holiday to me. Thus, no inconsistency.

Anonymous wrote:As an atheist who celebrates in December with a tree and gifts, traditional family foods, etc., I understand why Christians might prefer the rest of us celebrate these traditions with some name other than Christmas but you can't deny there is a cultural holiday in the U.S. that gets called Christmas and that even many jewish people celebrate as a holiday for children. I don't think it's correct to call those people inconsistent.

Or just accept that in the face of the complexities of life we are all inconsistent about some things.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I assume you're consistent and don't celebrate Christmas, right?

I assume you're consistent and celebrate Christmas in late summer/early fall, right? And not the co-opted Pagan solstice celebration in December?

As an atheist who celebrates in December with a tree and gifts, traditional family foods, etc., I understand why Christians might prefer the rest of us celebrate these traditions with some name other than Christmas but you can't deny there is a cultural holiday in the U.S. that gets called Christmas and that even many jewish people celebrate as a holiday for children. I don't think it's correct to call those people inconsistent.

Anonymous wrote:I assume you're consistent and don't celebrate Christmas, right?

I assume you're consistent and celebrate Christmas in late summer/early fall, right? And not the co-opted Pagan solstice celebration in December?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you mock religious people? If someone makes an offhand comment about going to church (say on a Sunday afternoon, mentioning they just came from there), do you sneer? If so, why?

I'm another atheist and I would never do that. I have been mocked by religious people but very rarely. I don't expect most people to mock me if I tell them I am not religious.

Out of respect and love, I listen happily to the sermon at your wedding and observe all the rules at a funeral. It's not difficult to be a good person in those ways.

+1. Another atheist here, agreeing that there is nothing about either believing or not believing that should interfere with ordinary civility.

Another atheist -- I would never sneer. That's just bad manners.