Anonymous wrote:What's wrong with a logical atheist^^ the posters point is way more scientific and logical . What is a goofier religion than an atheist with some dumb opinion on what he feels is moral or good? Some atheist people have violence and power in the good column and if they can kill you then I guess they are the ones who are right.

Explain the logical connection between the premise "When we die, there is no afterlife and no supreme being," to "There are no morals"?

What's wrong with a logical atheist^^ the posters point is way more scientific and logical . What is a goofier religion than an atheist with some dumb opinion on what he feels is moral or good? Some atheist people have violence and power in the good column and if they can kill you then I guess they are the ones who are right.

Anonymous wrote:No, they don't. Nobody has souls. We are all just animals and will soon be dead. There are no morals. There is no reason to be good. I try to get as much fun and pleasure out of this freaky thing that feels like existance but is not while I can.

It's funny. I know a lot of atheists and agnostics and none of them believe there are no morals or no reason to be good. Those two things don't require a supreme being.

Sometimes I wonder if there is someone on here who is not an atheist but who is trying to make atheists look bad.

How anyone can deny that all of us, everybody, including children are first and foremost self-centered and concerned is hilarious. Self centered nature is original sin and we are all guilty.

An allegory for Christianity is this

You die, you go to a courtroom , God is the judge. The prosecuting attorney is seasoned.. He's a pro and very well prepared . "Your honor, here sits (you/me)... He has broken your commandments and as you know.. Breaking the commandments leads to a sentence of spiritual death and punishment. I am going to play every instance of the defendants life where he/she has broken commandments and sinned. A video screen comes up., you look at your attorney, he's filing his nails and not worried . You're like Oooh crap! After 2 years of watching each sin you have committed, the prosecutor (satan) wraps up his case with.. "And as you can see your honor , the defendent is guilty of sin beyond count and measure and as the bible says she shall surely be put to death !" And he sits down with a self satisfied look on his face. You look at your attorney and go "what are you going to do?" He says " don't worry" you say " easy for you to say .. I'm the one in jeopardy!"

Your attorney stands up and says "permission to approach the bench" God says.. "Permission granted." Your attorney walks up.. Leans into God and says in a low voice .. " Dad. This defendent knows me and loves me. I died and already paid the price for her." God says " case dismissed!" Defendent.. All is forgiven and forgotten enter the kingdom of heaven with your brothers and sisters in Me.

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Anonymous wrote:Of course atheists have souls. Every single person on this planet was created in love and has sacred worth. Some of the "Christians" posting on this thread need to spend a little more time praying/thinking/meditating on the way Jesus chose to live His life and a lot less time deciding who is and who is not worthy of God's love.

Nice thoughts, but how could you possibly know that? Looking around us, it's pretty obvious that some people have been born into terrible pain and are treated as if they are worthless, through absolutely no fault of their own. This is not the work of a benevolent creator -- at least not one who spreads his benevolence around very much.

Why not just say you value human life and think people should treat each other with compassion?

Not that poster but I feel similarly. Probably the best way to describe my beliefs is pantheism. The universe and everything in it is sacred. Earth, people, everything. Of course many many people are treated very badly. So is the earth. I can't change that unfortunately. I can only work in my sphere of influence to try and make things better.

Are you saying that you believe a supreme being created the universe and put humans here to try to make things better for his creatures, instead of God having some kind of benevolent control over his creation?

Anonymous wrote:Numbers have nothing to do with anything. Just because more people may currently be not choosing to be with God in heaven doesnt make it fine. Christianity is about defeating sin and death.

Numbers mean a lot to the churches losing them. Some of those people may firmly believe in God, but just don't want to hear the prejudiced message that some of God
s children are unacceptable to God the way He made them. The Catholic Doctrine says regular church attendance is necessary, but the bible doesn't ("Keep the Sabbath holy" is open to interpretation)

Anonymous wrote:Most people make up what they believe mostly by how they feel or what makes them comfortable. Logically, the odds of what makes them comfortable being the actual order of existance is highly unlikely . The bible May or may not be true, but since it is so compelling to outlast 2000 years of fads, PC, philosophy, kingdoms and all human spiritual experimentation and still be the number 1 selling book year after year..... It is logically more likely to be true, especially since so much of it is contrary to our nature and indicts our character .

There is very little logic in what you say. There are books older than the Bible and the reason they are not as well known by the masses is that they didn't have the huge PR campaign that the BIble has had for centuries -- by that I mean the Catholic Church enforcing it's brand of religion, presenting the Bible as written by God, Then the reformation and the printing printing press that made the Bible (and pretty much only the bible, for a while) available to the masses. The Bible may be "best selling" but very few read it. It' a common gift to give for confirmation, weddings, etc. Also, don't forget all those bibles in hotel rooms. Lots of people have several Bibles on their shelves, but who knows if they have cracked any of them.

Also, in many ways the Bible has not outlasted fads -- it's changed with the times. There are so many different editions and different interpretations of it, sometimes it's hard to recognize that people are referring to the same book. Your logic sounds like something heard in Sunday school and then not thought much about -- something a minister would say to try to make a case for the Bible - and something people accept because it comes from an authoritative voice.

Many would disagree with the Bible being "contrary to our nature," saying that it's wisdom is timeless. And there is no evidence that it's contrary to our nature -- humans are complex - there is much in the Bible that is good and much that is horrible, reflecting humans at a point in time, over 2,000 years ago when life was different in many ways - when few people were literate, life was much shorter and we knew little about science.

Please think about these kind of things before you make another statement about the Bible.

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Anonymous wrote:^^ Christ said " what is good? No one is good except the father ."

Christians do not believe they are good. They believe they are forgiven and saved by grace.

My children are good.

I don't need a god to tell me that I'm wrong in thinking that.

My children are good and kind and loving.

BS. Children are self centered . When is the last time they gave their brand new toys to a poor kid?

What in the hell ever happened to Matthew 19:14?

Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

My daughter gives away her items to her brother, who's younger, and to the thrift shop in our 'hood. My son always writes me cards in school, telling me how much he loves me.

-One of the atheists signing off

But she is not giving her Brand New presents away to other kids so she's self centered , at least according to pp.

FWIW, I do think that God wants us to be kind and good to each other and that includes being charitable to others less fortunate. And charity is not just about money there are lots of other ways to give of yourself. Remember - we are all "less fortunate" in one way or another. It's not just about handing over $$$$ and new toys.

I think what I've highlighted in bold says more about you than about my 10 yo daughter. Just b/c something is new and shiny doesn't mean it has more value. The act of giving is just as important as the item that's being donated.

But you're putting a price on that.

nice job, Christian

Again, if you're so religious and driven by God to do good, you'd know your bible more -

Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

12 years of Catholic school taught me something.

- Atheist signing off again

My post is the one that you bolded, and I think that you either misunderstood or I didn't explain my thoughts well. It was not my intent to put a price on anything actually. Would you want every gift that you receive to be second hand, used. Would you expect your youngest child to never, ever receive anything brand new and just be happy with your oldest child's hand me downs? Of course not.

I have given away used items that had more meaning and more value to a person than any similar new item would. It is quite possible to do that. It is also possible to give away things just to get rid of them. Ex: I recently took a car load of stuff that I no longer wanted to Goodwill. It was better to do that than it would have been to just toss those items into the trash. Someone will hopefully get some use out of them and I have less clutter. Win-win. My family participated in a yard sale recently and one of the things I was selling were children's shoes. I probably had 20 pairs of them set out, many barely worn. It was early in the morning, the sale had just begun and we had already sold a pair for 4 bucks, woohoo! Then a man came up and explained that he was collecting shoes to send to orphans in another country. We gave him the rest of those shoes.

Numbers have nothing to do with anything. Just because more people may currently be not choosing to be with God in heaven doesnt make it fine. Christianity is about defeating sin and death.

Anonymous wrote:
I think most religious groups are getting away from doctrine. Unfortunately MANY of them are moving toward a really terrifying conservative, highly judgmental brand of religion. Not so many moving toward more liberal practices. (Some do, like Episcopalians, but they are less than 1% of the American population and decline in numbers every year).

Everything religion offers is something humans need. But humans can meet those needs elsewhere. Religious ritual or non-religious ritual. Religious moral code or non-religious moral code. Religious sense of community or non-religious community. Religious prayer or non-religious meditation. And so on. I don't find comfort in religious practices, but many people do. I just wish they could find their comfort without tearing others down (or worse).

The conservatives' numbers are dropping too, especially among young people who are much more accepting of gays and minorities and don't want to be associated with an organization that is prejudiced and limiting.

No, they don't. Nobody has souls. We are all just animals and will soon be dead. There are no morals. There is no reason to be good. I try to get as much fun and pleasure out of this freaky thing that feels like existance but is not while I can.

Most people make up what they believe mostly by how they feel or what makes them comfortable. Logically, the odds of what makes them comfortable being the actual order of existance is highly unlikely . The bible May or may not be true, but since it is so compelling to outlast 2000 years of fads, PC, philosophy, kingdoms and all human spiritual experimentation and still be the number 1 selling book year after year..... It is logically more likely to be true, especially since so much of it is contrary to our nature and indicts our character .

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course atheists have souls. Every single person on this planet was created in love and has sacred worth. Some of the "Christians" posting on this thread need to spend a little more time praying/thinking/meditating on the way Jesus chose to live His life and a lot less time deciding who is and who is not worthy of God's love.

Nice thoughts, but how could you possibly know that? Looking around us, it's pretty obvious that some people have been born into terrible pain and are treated as if they are worthless, through absolutely no fault of their own. This is not the work of a benevolent creator -- at least not one who spreads his benevolence around very much.

Why not just say you value human life and think people should treat each other with compassion?

Not that poster but I feel similarly. Probably the best way to describe my beliefs is pantheism. The universe and everything in it is sacred. Earth, people, everything. Of course many many people are treated very badly. So is the earth. I can't change that unfortunately. I can only work in my sphere of influence to try and make things better.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^ Christ said " what is good? No one is good except the father ."

Christians do not believe they are good. They believe they are forgiven and saved by grace.

My children are good.

I don't need a god to tell me that I'm wrong in thinking that.

My children are good and kind and loving.

BS. Children are self centered . When is the last time they gave their brand new toys to a poor kid?

What in the hell ever happened to Matthew 19:14?

Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

My daughter gives away her items to her brother, who's younger, and to the thrift shop in our 'hood. My son always writes me cards in school, telling me how much he loves me.

-One of the atheists signing off

But she is not giving her Brand New presents away to other kids so she's self centered , at least according to pp.

FWIW, I do think that God wants us to be kind and good to each other and that includes being charitable to others less fortunate. And charity is not just about money there are lots of other ways to give of yourself. Remember - we are all "less fortunate" in one way or another. It's not just about handing over $$$$ and new toys.

I think what I've highlighted in bold says more about you than about my 10 yo daughter. Just b/c something is new and shiny doesn't mean it has more value. The act of giving is just as important as the item that's being donated.

But you're putting a price on that.

nice job, Christian

Again, if you're so religious and driven by God to do good, you'd know your bible more -

Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

12 years of Catholic school taught me something.

- Atheist signing off again

Anonymous wrote:Of course atheists have souls. Every single person on this planet was created in love and has sacred worth. Some of the "Christians" posting on this thread need to spend a little more time praying/thinking/meditating on the way Jesus chose to live His life and a lot less time deciding who is and who is not worthy of God's love.

Nice thoughts, but how could you possibly know that? Looking around us, it's pretty obvious that some people have been born into terrible pain and are treated as if they are worthless, through absolutely no fault of their own. This is not the work of a benevolent creator -- at least not one who spreads his benevolence around very much.

Why not just say you value human life and think people should treat each other with compassion?