Anonymous
12/16/2014 13:32
Subject: Why do so many educated professionals look down on teachers?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:In private school parents are the customers and treated as such. Why should public school be any different?
Because you don't pay for it. You sort of do through taxes, but if you leave they don't lose money because you "took your business elsewhere."
..that would be charters where parents are allowed to take their vouchers and leave crappy schools.
Anonymous
12/16/2014 13:29
Subject: Why do so many educated professionals look down on teachers?
Anonymous wrote:In private school parents are the customers and treated as such. Why should public school be any different?
Because you don't pay for it. You sort of do through taxes, but if you leave they don't lose money because you "took your business elsewhere."
Anonymous
12/16/2014 13:28
Subject: Why do so many educated professionals look down on teachers?
Anonymous wrote:When I looked at private schools vs. public, I was struck by the number of former lawyers now teaching in independent schools. These teachers are fabulous at teaching English and presenting a polished, professional outlook and interesting discussion for their students.
There were a number of teachers and nurses in my law school classes.
Anonymous
12/16/2014 13:22
Subject: Why do so many educated professionals look down on teachers?
In private school parents are the customers and treated as such. Why should public school be any different?
Anonymous
12/16/2014 08:35
Subject: Re:Why do so many educated professionals look down on teachers?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote: This is what happens when business people get too involved in education. Teachers do not have "customers."
I think this comment gets to the nub of the conflict. Many teachers seem to feel their profession is a calling, almost like the priesthood, where they should be lauded for their sacrifices and honored for the education that got them the teaching position. But many parents and policy makers now expect more - they want the teachers who are most successful at educating students. Perhaps it's also a function of the fact that, unlike the past, there are now more people who want to be teachers than there are teacher jobs, so those doing the hiring can afford to be picky. Speaking as a parent who wants good teachers for my children, I have no vendetta against teachers generally, nor do I want to wage war on teachers. But I get frustrated when I encounter less effective teachers, and I get even more frustrated when I hear stories about how hard it is for schools to remove those ineffective teachers. In short, teacher should consider themselves to have "customers" now.
I see what you're saying, but no, teachers don't have customers. They have students. (And the students have parents.)
Anonymous
12/16/2014 08:32
Subject: Re:Why do so many educated professionals look down on teachers?
Anonymous wrote: This is what happens when business people get too involved in education. Teachers do not have "customers."
I think this comment gets to the nub of the conflict. Many teachers seem to feel their profession is a calling, almost like the priesthood, where they should be lauded for their sacrifices and honored for the education that got them the teaching position. But many parents and policy makers now expect more - they want the teachers who are most successful at educating students. Perhaps it's also a function of the fact that, unlike the past, there are now more people who want to be teachers than there are teacher jobs, so those doing the hiring can afford to be picky. Speaking as a parent who wants good teachers for my children, I have no vendetta against teachers generally, nor do I want to wage war on teachers. But I get frustrated when I encounter less effective teachers, and I get even more frustrated when I hear stories about how hard it is for schools to remove those ineffective teachers. In short, teacher should consider themselves to have "customers" now.
Anonymous
12/16/2014 06:53
Subject: Re:Why do so many educated professionals look down on teachers?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:A public school can't hire a teacher who is not highly qualified for the position. They have to be certified for the area they are teaching. Do you want to know where the teacher went to college/grad school?
Every MD has to pass the boards, do you research the doctors you choose to go to? Look at their schooling? ask around about their reputation? I wish we could do that with teachers. I have no idea how to make it work, but if parents could vote with their feet, a lot of bad teachers would find they didn't have any customers.
I don't care too much where my doc went to school. I do ask for recommendations from people I know. You can ask around about different teachers. It doesn't mean that you get the teacher that you want. It's a good life lesson for your kids. You can't always get what you want. This is what happens when business people get too involved in education. Teachers do not have "customers."
Anonymous
12/15/2014 23:42
Subject: Re:Why do so many educated professionals look down on teachers?
Anonymous wrote:I think this is exactly right.
Anonymous wrote:One of the unintentional consequences of increasing opportunities for women in the 70s meant that the teaching force declined in quality. Bright female college graduates used to be mostly limited to teaching, but now they go to law school, medical school etc. instead. Not justifying a return to the sexist division of labor of the 1950s, but now the teaching profession needs to work harder to attract top quality applicants.
+1
I was just about to post something similar. A generation or two back had many bright teachers. Out of my peers from HS, I'd say easily 80% of the people who went into teaching were the bottom half of the class. A handful of bright "public service" folks. And then one person had a successful career and then became a teacher later in life.
My second kid is in K this year at a "top" VA elementary school and I cringe every time the teacher uses poor grammar. "Larla is really reading good now." ACK!!!!
Anonymous
12/15/2014 22:42
Subject: Why do so many educated professionals look down on teachers?
When I looked at private schools vs. public, I was struck by the number of former lawyers now teaching in independent schools. These teachers are fabulous at teaching English and presenting a polished, professional outlook and interesting discussion for their students.
Anonymous
12/15/2014 22:40
Subject: Why do so many educated professionals look down on teachers?
Anonymous wrote:MD former teacher here. I'm currently a pediatric oncologist and let me tell you there is absolutely no way in hell anyone (including insurers) are hassling me about patient outcomes. I am trusted to do the best I can to save my patients' lives.
When I was a teacher, I wasn't given this deference. It was so, so different and if you don't get it, you really do not understand what a sad, messed up state our education system is in right now.
Everyone wants to innovate. Even doctors. But you have to implement and that's where the respect goes out the window. We don't respect teachers like our medical treaters. It suckss.
Hospitals are paid more for better outcomes. Medicine is moving online. It's coming.
Soon, all of us will find our jobs threatened by AI.
Anonymous
12/15/2014 22:25
Subject: Re:Why do so many educated professionals look down on teachers?
Anonymous wrote:A public school can't hire a teacher who is not highly qualified for the position. They have to be certified for the area they are teaching. Do you want to know where the teacher went to college/grad school?
Every MD has to pass the boards, do you research the doctors you choose to go to? Look at their schooling? ask around about their reputation? I wish we could do that with teachers. I have no idea how to make it work, but if parents could vote with their feet, a lot of bad teachers would find they didn't have any customers.
Anonymous
12/15/2014 21:22
Subject: Re:Why do so many educated professionals look down on teachers?
A public school can't hire a teacher who is not highly qualified for the position. They have to be certified for the area they are teaching. Do you want to know where the teacher went to college/grad school?
Anonymous
12/15/2014 21:17
Subject: Why do so many educated professionals look down on teachers?
One issue is that you are assigned a teacher for your child with little to no ability to select the professional you would like to have fill this role. I'm not sure about others, but I don't really know that much about my DC's teacher's qualifications and there isn't much point into putting the time and effort into finding out since I don't have a say about which class my DC is in.
Anonymous
12/15/2014 21:06
Subject: Why do so many educated professionals look down on teachers?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Could you elaborate?
Sure. I'm a big advocate of the "Finnish model." Since it performs well, the education "reformers" (reform isn't a bad thing, but a certain type of "reform" dominates the debate) sing praises to Finland, including Arne Duncan. For example the film Waiting for Superman praises the success of Finland but then trashes teachers unions and teacher education as useless, and says the TFA approach is better. In Finland, teachers are unionized, have master's degrees in education and there's no charter schools and no emphasis on "teaching to the test."
Oh can we please drop the comparison to the Finnish model? You are comparing apples to oranges. They have not nearly the socio-economic nor social diversity and baggage that complicates our system. Put their teachers in our classrooms and I doubt they'd be able to make much of a difference
Anonymous
12/15/2014 20:55
Subject: Why do so many educated professionals look down on teachers?
Anonymous wrote: I do think teachers overall do not get enough respect and most deserve it. It's a lot of hours for mediocre pay and difficult parents and kids. However, even the most snooty parents I have encountered, have great respect for the truly talented/outstanding teachers.
The problem is the bad ones give the profession a bad name. I have encountered teachers who can't write coherent paragraphs and who make every grammatical mistake in the book. The standards for education programs are too low and there are too many classes that are too easy.
I have encountered people with PhDs, MDs, and JDs who can't write coherent paragraphs in standard American English. When I encountered them, I did not conclude, "The standards for doctoral/medical/law programs are too low and there are too many classes that are too easy."