FruminousBandersnatch
Post 09/27/2014 21:26     Subject: Is Dark Matter Where the Seven Heavens Lie?
Anonymous wrote:
FruminousBandersnatch wrote:

Well people who are devout believe in the unseen world of angels and souls, and these entities also do not collide. Just makes sense that it could be where heaven is. It just makes it more awesome that science is finally beginning to prove all this.


You're looking at this backwards from a scientific perspective. You are assuming that heaven/etc. exists and then trying to say, "See - all this new stuff they're finding out could be where heaven is."

Science, on the other hand, looks at the evidence and draws conclusion from the evidence. There is no scientific evidence that heaven exists. There is no supernatural requirement associated with the theories around dark matter or any other cosmological theories.


I think that should have been evident from the title of my thread. This thread assumes heaven exists. It is a topic that only people of faith would understand, not atheists. So I ask again- why are you here to discuss where heaven exists, if you can not even accept that heaven even exists in the first place? We are going in circles with atheists on a thread that discusses a religious concept and its connection to science. If dark matter interests you, start a topic in off-topic. This thread assumes heaven does exist because people of faith believe that. Its not up for debate here.


I have no argument with you about whether Heaven exists. (I disagree with you, but there's no point in arguing it because neither of us could prove the point to the other's satisfaction. I would also point out that the initial post in this thread is somewhat theologically uncertain about the nature of the "Seven Heavens" vs. the paradise of the other Abrahamic religions, and it doesn't even reference places like Valhalla, the Happy Hunting Grounds, etc.)

My point is that you are trying to conflate the physical realm with the spiritual, supernatural realm. There is no evidence to imply that there is anything supernatural or spiritual about dark matter, and by trying to tie the location of Heaven (or the Seven Heavens or Valhalla or the afterlife-paradise of your choice) to large clumps of dark matter, and then postulating that immaterial, supernatural, immortal soul, upon death, streaks through a wormhole (something theoretically possible, but never observed) to $paradise$ is simply silly.

Let's consider some of the questions raised by your hypothesis.

If Heaven is out there in some massive clump of dark matter, why would God create Earth so far away? Seems kinda inconvenient. Is God's monitoring of Earth and occasional interactions with people subject to physical limitations like the speed of light? Is prayer subject to those delays? Or does prayer operate via ansible? If God, the angels, and all of the souls are massless and immaterial, what provides the mass of dark matter?

Is there one large, stable wormhole sitting out there (if so, why haven't we noticed its physical effects because each end of a wormhole is a black hole, with all of the gravitational effects that implies), or is a new wormhole created for each soul (again, we might've noticed that, even if the wormholes were small because of the showers of particles that would be created when the wormhole closed).

Perhaps we didn't notice them because the wormholes themselves are so far from Earth. How fast does an immaterial soul travel when it leaves the body to head for the wormhole? Should we postulate that the soul travels at light speed? Does a soul experience time dilation while travelling at light speed? If a soul is made of dark matter and has mass, its acceleration from rest attached to a body to near light speed would release a lot of radiation and would be detectable - especially since with the current population various websites say that roughly 150,000 people die per day.

If a soul is not made of dark matter and is truly immaterial, then why would it have any speed limit and why would it need a transport mechanism like a wormhole? Would a soul notice the passage of time between death and its arrival in Heaven?

If the wormholes are temporary, what provides the energy to open them for each soul?

On the other hand, if God, Heaven, the angels and all of the souls are truly supernatural and have no physical links to this mortal plane, then why would Heaven have to be so far out in the universe? Why wouldn't it be a supernatural realm "right next door" to ours?

There's no evidence that there is anything supernatural or divine about dark matter, and so no reason to assume that it might be the home to a divine entity.

Anonymous
Post 09/27/2014 21:23     Subject: Is Dark Matter Where the Seven Heavens Lie?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
FruminousBandersnatch wrote:

Well people who are devout believe in the unseen world of angels and souls, and these entities also do not collide. Just makes sense that it could be where heaven is. It just makes it more awesome that science is finally beginning to prove all this.


You're looking at this backwards from a scientific perspective. You are assuming that heaven/etc. exists and then trying to say, "See - all this new stuff they're finding out could be where heaven is."

Science, on the other hand, looks at the evidence and draws conclusion from the evidence. There is no scientific evidence that heaven exists. There is no supernatural requirement associated with the theories around dark matter or any other cosmological theories.


I think that should have been evident from the title of my thread. This thread assumes heaven exists. It is a topic that only people of faith would understand, not atheists. So I ask again- why are you here to discuss where heaven exists, if you can not even accept that heaven even exists in the first place? We are going in circles with atheists on a thread that discusses a religious concept and its connection to science. If dark matter interests you, start a topic in off-topic. This thread assumes heaven does exist because people of faith believe that. Its not up for debate here.


But then why are you using scientific information to try to build your case for the existence of heaven? really, if you invite science into the discussion, it's hard to uninvite people with a scientific frame of mind - unless they agree with your interpretation of the evidence. That's not how science works.


I am free to use science, nature, philosophy, any subject I like to validate belief in God and heaven. That heaven exists is not at issue for believers. We know it does. But we wonder where it exists. If I say it might exists in trees, will you then ask me why I am using plant biology to validate religion? If I say it exists underground at earths core, will you then ask me why I am using geology to validate religion? If I say heaven exists in the oceans, will you ask why I am using oceanography to validate religion. Its absurdity to think I am not permitted to validate my belief system with dark matter. You are looking for a justification to thwart a genuine discussion of religion simply because you reject religion.

Stop sabotaging the discussion, its not necessary for you to understand or join it. Its meant for people who are devout in their belief in God and heaven.
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2014 21:14     Subject: Is Dark Matter Where the Seven Heavens Lie?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
FruminousBandersnatch wrote:

Well people who are devout believe in the unseen world of angels and souls, and these entities also do not collide. Just makes sense that it could be where heaven is. It just makes it more awesome that science is finally beginning to prove all this.


You're looking at this backwards from a scientific perspective. You are assuming that heaven/etc. exists and then trying to say, "See - all this new stuff they're finding out could be where heaven is."

Science, on the other hand, looks at the evidence and draws conclusion from the evidence. There is no scientific evidence that heaven exists. There is no supernatural requirement associated with the theories around dark matter or any other cosmological theories.


I think that should have been evident from the title of my thread. This thread assumes heaven exists. It is a topic that only people of faith would understand, not atheists. So I ask again- why are you here to discuss where heaven exists, if you can not even accept that heaven even exists in the first place? We are going in circles with atheists on a thread that discusses a religious concept and its connection to science. If dark matter interests you, start a topic in off-topic. This thread assumes heaven does exist because people of faith believe that. Its not up for debate here.


My belief in the existence of heaven is not going to change. Is this what you atheists are hoping to do with every religious thread now, try to convince people of faith to be atheist? Are you going to sabotage every effort people of faith make in communicating with other people of faith? Maybe Jeff can create an atheism forum for you folks. You clearly want someone to hear what you have to say, but you won't find believers interested in it here.

Not necessarily -- many atheists once believed in heaven and have a fuller understanding of it than current believers, because they studied it carefully, before rejecting it.

If you studied science more, you'd learn that religious concepts are not connected to it.
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2014 21:12     Subject: Is Dark Matter Where the Seven Heavens Lie?
Possibly more religious people are not responding because they have nothing to say, or think the premise is not strong. Maybe they just like believing in heaven and are not interested in trying to overlay a scientific explanation on it.

After all, faith is faith and is not dependent on evidence.
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2014 21:12     Subject: Is Dark Matter Where the Seven Heavens Lie?
Possibly more religious people are not responding because they have nothing to say, or think the premise is not strong. Maybe they just like believing in heaven and are not interested in trying to overlay a scientific explanation on it.

After all, faith is faith and is not dependent on evidence.
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2014 21:07     Subject: Is Dark Matter Where the Seven Heavens Lie?
Anonymous wrote:
FruminousBandersnatch wrote:

Well people who are devout believe in the unseen world of angels and souls, and these entities also do not collide. Just makes sense that it could be where heaven is. It just makes it more awesome that science is finally beginning to prove all this.


You're looking at this backwards from a scientific perspective. You are assuming that heaven/etc. exists and then trying to say, "See - all this new stuff they're finding out could be where heaven is."

Science, on the other hand, looks at the evidence and draws conclusion from the evidence. There is no scientific evidence that heaven exists. There is no supernatural requirement associated with the theories around dark matter or any other cosmological theories.


I think that should have been evident from the title of my thread. This thread assumes heaven exists. It is a topic that only people of faith would understand, not atheists. So I ask again- why are you here to discuss where heaven exists, if you can not even accept that heaven even exists in the first place? We are going in circles with atheists on a thread that discusses a religious concept and its connection to science. If dark matter interests you, start a topic in off-topic. This thread assumes heaven does exist because people of faith believe that. Its not up for debate here.


Not necessarily -- many atheists once believed in heaven and have a fuller understanding of it than current believers, because they studied it carefully, before rejecting it.

If you studied science more, you'd learn that religious concepts are not connected to it.
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2014 21:04     Subject: Is Dark Matter Where the Seven Heavens Lie?
Anonymous wrote:
FruminousBandersnatch wrote:

Well people who are devout believe in the unseen world of angels and souls, and these entities also do not collide. Just makes sense that it could be where heaven is. It just makes it more awesome that science is finally beginning to prove all this.


You're looking at this backwards from a scientific perspective. You are assuming that heaven/etc. exists and then trying to say, "See - all this new stuff they're finding out could be where heaven is."

Science, on the other hand, looks at the evidence and draws conclusion from the evidence. There is no scientific evidence that heaven exists. There is no supernatural requirement associated with the theories around dark matter or any other cosmological theories.


I think that should have been evident from the title of my thread. This thread assumes heaven exists. It is a topic that only people of faith would understand, not atheists. So I ask again- why are you here to discuss where heaven exists, if you can not even accept that heaven even exists in the first place? We are going in circles with atheists on a thread that discusses a religious concept and its connection to science. If dark matter interests you, start a topic in off-topic. This thread assumes heaven does exist because people of faith believe that. Its not up for debate here.


But then why are you using scientific information to try to build your case for the existence of heaven? really, if you invite science into the discussion, it's hard to uninvite people with a scientific frame of mind - unless they agree with your interpretation of the evidence. That's not how science works.
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2014 19:48     Subject: Is Dark Matter Where the Seven Heavens Lie?
FruminousBandersnatch wrote:

Well people who are devout believe in the unseen world of angels and souls, and these entities also do not collide. Just makes sense that it could be where heaven is. It just makes it more awesome that science is finally beginning to prove all this.


You're looking at this backwards from a scientific perspective. You are assuming that heaven/etc. exists and then trying to say, "See - all this new stuff they're finding out could be where heaven is."

Science, on the other hand, looks at the evidence and draws conclusion from the evidence. There is no scientific evidence that heaven exists. There is no supernatural requirement associated with the theories around dark matter or any other cosmological theories.


I think that should have been evident from the title of my thread. This thread assumes heaven exists. It is a topic that only people of faith would understand, not atheists. So I ask again- why are you here to discuss where heaven exists, if you can not even accept that heaven even exists in the first place? We are going in circles with atheists on a thread that discusses a religious concept and its connection to science. If dark matter interests you, start a topic in off-topic. This thread assumes heaven does exist because people of faith believe that. Its not up for debate here.
FruminousBandersnatch
Post 09/27/2014 19:31     Subject: Is Dark Matter Where the Seven Heavens Lie?

Well people who are devout believe in the unseen world of angels and souls, and these entities also do not collide. Just makes sense that it could be where heaven is. It just makes it more awesome that science is finally beginning to prove all this.


You're looking at this backwards from a scientific perspective. You are assuming that heaven/etc. exists and then trying to say, "See - all this new stuff they're finding out could be where heaven is."

Science, on the other hand, looks at the evidence and draws conclusion from the evidence. There is no scientific evidence that heaven exists. There is no supernatural requirement associated with the theories around dark matter or any other cosmological theories.
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2014 19:12     Subject: Is Dark Matter Where the Seven Heavens Lie?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:OP here.

Here's another aspect of dark matter that is quite fascinating - it is impossible to collide with it. Instead of masses colliding with it, they simply pass through it. How is it possible for something to have intense gravity but does not collide with anything?

Here's one explanation from http://www.topix.net/forum/religion/islam/TNGUT076I95HN6PH9"

Astronomers have just confirmed the existence of Dark Matter. This mysterious Dark Matter is invisible however it provides the bulk of gravity that holds galaxies (not the regular matter that forms stars and planets). This invisible Dark Matter has weird collision properties (collisionless). Simply put: we cannot see Dark Matter nor collide with it but we can detect its gravity.With each cluster having a mass of 10,000 galaxies (each cluster a quadrillion times the mass of the Sun, 1015!!!)(See: Universe Today). However upon impact, instead of disintegrating into smaller pieces, they passed through each other unscathed! This means that they did not collide with each other either! They simply passed through each other!!!

In order to explain why this invisible Dark Matter neither collides with each other, nor does it collide with us but still we detect its gravity, physicists and cosmologists are working on theories with extra dimensions. Traditionally scientists thought that we live in a four dimensional universe: Time and the usual three spatial dimensions of length, width and height (x,y,z). However today there is evidence for six extra spatial dimensions. So we cannot see nor collide with this Dark Matter because it is mass in the remaining six extra dimensions.



How does this relate to heaven?


Well people who are devout believe in the unseen world of angels and souls, and these entities also do not collide. Just makes sense that it could be where heaven is. It just makes it more awesome that science is finally beginning to prove all this.
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2014 17:52     Subject: Is Dark Matter Where the Seven Heavens Lie?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I'm an atheist - and I clicked on this link because I'm quite interested in how science might intersect, or have an effect on faith. I think what people experience in faith - in "knowing their God" is a very real thing, and I like questions like the one opposed, because I think there is a diamond buried in religion, the experience of having faith itself, that is a function of the brain. Science hasn't yet been able to explain that - but I hope one day will.


If you have some free time (1 hour), this is a very interesting lecture about the how atheism, religion, and science all intersect. You really to have to watch the whole thing though, because the topics converge at the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KrJvpD0nNM



And here is the first comment on that video:

Save yourself one hour.
his whole speech can be summarized as follows:
modern science hasn't yet explained everything completely.

the rest is mostly bullshit a la deepak chopra.?



Yes, that's someone's comment. There are lots of comments. I was referring to the video itself not the comments section. Do you only read the comments section of online newspapers too? Obviously we all have our own opinions and we're not all going to like the same things.

Anyway, it's there if you want to watch and form your own thoughts. I shared it because it's interesting and seemed relevant to the pp's post.



and many of them are negative


Yes, that tends to happen when someone challenges the beliefs of the Bible.





And makes up other woo to take its place
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2014 17:52     Subject: Is Dark Matter Where the Seven Heavens Lie?
Anonymous wrote:OP here.

Here's another aspect of dark matter that is quite fascinating - it is impossible to collide with it. Instead of masses colliding with it, they simply pass through it. How is it possible for something to have intense gravity but does not collide with anything?

Here's one explanation from http://www.topix.net/forum/religion/islam/TNGUT076I95HN6PH9"

Astronomers have just confirmed the existence of Dark Matter. This mysterious Dark Matter is invisible however it provides the bulk of gravity that holds galaxies (not the regular matter that forms stars and planets). This invisible Dark Matter has weird collision properties (collisionless). Simply put: we cannot see Dark Matter nor collide with it but we can detect its gravity.With each cluster having a mass of 10,000 galaxies (each cluster a quadrillion times the mass of the Sun, 1015!!!)(See: Universe Today). However upon impact, instead of disintegrating into smaller pieces, they passed through each other unscathed! This means that they did not collide with each other either! They simply passed through each other!!!

In order to explain why this invisible Dark Matter neither collides with each other, nor does it collide with us but still we detect its gravity, physicists and cosmologists are working on theories with extra dimensions. Traditionally scientists thought that we live in a four dimensional universe: Time and the usual three spatial dimensions of length, width and height (x,y,z). However today there is evidence for six extra spatial dimensions. So we cannot see nor collide with this Dark Matter because it is mass in the remaining six extra dimensions.



How does this relate to heaven?
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2014 16:52     Subject: Is Dark Matter Where the Seven Heavens Lie?
OP here.

Here's another aspect of dark matter that is quite fascinating - it is impossible to collide with it. Instead of masses colliding with it, they simply pass through it. How is it possible for something to have intense gravity but does not collide with anything?

Here's one explanation from http://www.topix.net/forum/religion/islam/TNGUT076I95HN6PH9"

Astronomers have just confirmed the existence of Dark Matter. This mysterious Dark Matter is invisible however it provides the bulk of gravity that holds galaxies (not the regular matter that forms stars and planets). This invisible Dark Matter has weird collision properties (collisionless). Simply put: we cannot see Dark Matter nor collide with it but we can detect its gravity.With each cluster having a mass of 10,000 galaxies (each cluster a quadrillion times the mass of the Sun, 1015!!!)(See: Universe Today). However upon impact, instead of disintegrating into smaller pieces, they passed through each other unscathed! This means that they did not collide with each other either! They simply passed through each other!!!

In order to explain why this invisible Dark Matter neither collides with each other, nor does it collide with us but still we detect its gravity, physicists and cosmologists are working on theories with extra dimensions. Traditionally scientists thought that we live in a four dimensional universe: Time and the usual three spatial dimensions of length, width and height (x,y,z). However today there is evidence for six extra spatial dimensions. So we cannot see nor collide with this Dark Matter because it is mass in the remaining six extra dimensions.

Anonymous
Post 09/27/2014 16:38     Subject: Is Dark Matter Where the Seven Heavens Lie?
Anonymous wrote:I am the OP so I would like to redirect this thread back to its original topic- is dark matter where the seven heavens lie?

I am in awe that science has finally discovered an area that is completely invisible to the naked eye but we now know truly exists. I read somewhere that dark matter takes up 80% of space ( there may be other figures, not sure). I was fascinated that astrophysicists who first detected dark matter were stunned to see a constellation of stars, gases, space debris everywhere but when they saw the space containing dark matter, it was void of anything..a stark contrast to the rest of space.

If its true and the heavens lie there, I wonder also how our souls reach there. It has to be wormholes, as described by people who have had near death experiences.

I'm just in awe of the possibility....


Maybe it's where Hell is.
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2014 16:38     Subject: Is Dark Matter Where the Seven Heavens Lie?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I'm an atheist - and I clicked on this link because I'm quite interested in how science might intersect, or have an effect on faith. I think what people experience in faith - in "knowing their God" is a very real thing, and I like questions like the one opposed, because I think there is a diamond buried in religion, the experience of having faith itself, that is a function of the brain. Science hasn't yet been able to explain that - but I hope one day will.


If you have some free time (1 hour), this is a very interesting lecture about the how atheism, religion, and science all intersect. You really to have to watch the whole thing though, because the topics converge at the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KrJvpD0nNM



And here is the first comment on that video:

Save yourself one hour.
his whole speech can be summarized as follows:
modern science hasn't yet explained everything completely.

the rest is mostly bullshit a la deepak chopra.?



Yes, that's someone's comment. There are lots of comments. I was referring to the video itself not the comments section. Do you only read the comments section of online newspapers too? Obviously we all have our own opinions and we're not all going to like the same things.

Anyway, it's there if you want to watch and form your own thoughts. I shared it because it's interesting and seemed relevant to the pp's post.



and many of them are negative


Yes, that tends to happen when someone challenges the beliefs of the Bible.