OP here. Counselor knows about URM status and also has pretty detailed understanding of family background.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you are right that some (really just one or two) posts have been out of line. I would be angry too. But I also think you are resistant to the message that is pretty much the consensus of this thread, that your child is unlikely to be admitted to one of the top schools and that there isn't some kind of nefarious motive on the part of the guidance counselor. There is no question in my mind that he or she is delivering the same lesson to many a WASP family, with similar grades. Top 5% and certainly top 10% of the class isn't enough to get into these schools without an strong talent of some kind and your DC doesn't have that. THats the reality.

But clearly your DC should not apply ED to a school he doesn't want to attend, though its difficult to tease out what you want from what he wants. You only apply ED if you are absolutely certain..

So the answer is obvious -- don't apply ED. He should apply to a variety of schools INCLUDING one or two reaches, though don't get your hopes up. Make sure there are some realistic schools in the mix as well.

And try to take your chip off your shoulder. It is very difficult to have your child attend these schools if you aren't wealthy. I can see why you were suspicious. But now that you;ve done a reality check you should back off. In this case, there really doesn't seem to be anything amiss.

And I disagree with you. A college counselor that is NOT encouraging an URM, with very good grades at a competitive school, and very decent SAT scores, to reach for top 10 schools is doing a bad job, for whatever reason that may be. Reread the OP - the counselor is pushing a middling public school ED, or schools in the 15-25 range. That all seems fine and well for safeties, but to completely ignore reach schools? Why? Also no evidence that the counselor is working to ferret out the schools that might be looking for the OP's kid and offer a lot of aid.

OP, could you please clarify if your DC's counselor KNOWS your DC is an URM? Also, was this the first and only interaction you have had with this counselor?

If the counselor is not affirmatively asking whether the students are URMs, he's not doing a very good job. But agreed, the counselor needs to be made aware if he hasn't figured it out. (Which I think is unlikely.)

Apparently the kid looks white. I would make sure the counselor knows the kid is Hispanic. If they know that and are still pushing lower tier schools then there's a problem.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you are right that some (really just one or two) posts have been out of line. I would be angry too. But I also think you are resistant to the message that is pretty much the consensus of this thread, that your child is unlikely to be admitted to one of the top schools and that there isn't some kind of nefarious motive on the part of the guidance counselor. There is no question in my mind that he or she is delivering the same lesson to many a WASP family, with similar grades. Top 5% and certainly top 10% of the class isn't enough to get into these schools without an strong talent of some kind and your DC doesn't have that. THats the reality.

But clearly your DC should not apply ED to a school he doesn't want to attend, though its difficult to tease out what you want from what he wants. You only apply ED if you are absolutely certain..

So the answer is obvious -- don't apply ED. He should apply to a variety of schools INCLUDING one or two reaches, though don't get your hopes up. Make sure there are some realistic schools in the mix as well.

And try to take your chip off your shoulder. It is very difficult to have your child attend these schools if you aren't wealthy. I can see why you were suspicious. But now that you;ve done a reality check you should back off. In this case, there really doesn't seem to be anything amiss.

And I disagree with you. A college counselor that is NOT encouraging an URM, with very good grades at a competitive school, and very decent SAT scores, to reach for top 10 schools is doing a bad job, for whatever reason that may be. Reread the OP - the counselor is pushing a middling public school ED, or schools in the 15-25 range. That all seems fine and well for safeties, but to completely ignore reach schools? Why? Also no evidence that the counselor is working to ferret out the schools that might be looking for the OP's kid and offer a lot of aid.

OP, could you please clarify if your DC's counselor KNOWS your DC is an URM? Also, was this the first and only interaction you have had with this counselor?

If the counselor is not affirmatively asking whether the students are URMs, he's not doing a very good job. But agreed, the counselor needs to be made aware if he hasn't figured it out. (Which I think is unlikely.)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you are right that some (really just one or two) posts have been out of line. I would be angry too. But I also think you are resistant to the message that is pretty much the consensus of this thread, that your child is unlikely to be admitted to one of the top schools and that there isn't some kind of nefarious motive on the part of the guidance counselor. There is no question in my mind that he or she is delivering the same lesson to many a WASP family, with similar grades. Top 5% and certainly top 10% of the class isn't enough to get into these schools without an strong talent of some kind and your DC doesn't have that. THats the reality.

But clearly your DC should not apply ED to a school he doesn't want to attend, though its difficult to tease out what you want from what he wants. You only apply ED if you are absolutely certain..

So the answer is obvious -- don't apply ED. He should apply to a variety of schools INCLUDING one or two reaches, though don't get your hopes up. Make sure there are some realistic schools in the mix as well.

And try to take your chip off your shoulder. It is very difficult to have your child attend these schools if you aren't wealthy. I can see why you were suspicious. But now that you;ve done a reality check you should back off. In this case, there really doesn't seem to be anything amiss.

And I disagree with you. A college counselor that is NOT encouraging an URM, with very good grades at a competitive school, and very decent SAT scores, to reach for top 10 schools is doing a bad job, for whatever reason that may be. Reread the OP - the counselor is pushing a middling public school ED, or schools in the 15-25 range. That all seems fine and well for safeties, but to completely ignore reach schools? Why? Also no evidence that the counselor is working to ferret out the schools that might be looking for the OP's kid and offer a lot of aid.

OP, could you please clarify if your DC's counselor KNOWS your DC is an URM? Also, was this the first and only interaction you have had with this counselor?

Kids with 2200 SATs can get into Ivies while 2400s are rejected. 3.5 GPAs can get in while 3.9s are rejected. The schools look at the whole child (hooks, talents) and look at their needs as a college. Colleges definitely want students who will participate fully in the life of the school. Most of the kids who get into the Ivies at our Top 3 private are very smart (sometimes in different ways), normal kids who participate broadly in the life of the school. None, other than the athletes, have accomplishments like publishing cancer research. Of course, I am basing this only on my experience at my child's school. Kids and their families need to see Ivy league admissions as a game of chance.

Because the grades and scores are good but not great.

Anonymous wrote:OP, you are right that some (really just one or two) posts have been out of line. I would be angry too. But I also think you are resistant to the message that is pretty much the consensus of this thread, that your child is unlikely to be admitted to one of the top schools and that there isn't some kind of nefarious motive on the part of the guidance counselor. There is no question in my mind that he or she is delivering the same lesson to many a WASP family, with similar grades. Top 5% and certainly top 10% of the class isn't enough to get into these schools without an strong talent of some kind and your DC doesn't have that. THats the reality.

But clearly your DC should not apply ED to a school he doesn't want to attend, though its difficult to tease out what you want from what he wants. You only apply ED if you are absolutely certain..

So the answer is obvious -- don't apply ED. He should apply to a variety of schools INCLUDING one or two reaches, though don't get your hopes up. Make sure there are some realistic schools in the mix as well.

And try to take your chip off your shoulder. It is very difficult to have your child attend these schools if you aren't wealthy. I can see why you were suspicious. But now that you;ve done a reality check you should back off. In this case, there really doesn't seem to be anything amiss.

And I disagree with you. A college counselor that is NOT encouraging an URM, with very good grades at a competitive school, and very decent SAT scores, to reach for top 10 schools is doing a bad job, for whatever reason that may be. Reread the OP - the counselor is pushing a middling public school ED, or schools in the 15-25 range. That all seems fine and well for safeties, but to completely ignore reach schools? Why? Also no evidence that the counselor is working to ferret out the schools that might be looking for the OP's kid and offer a lot of aid.

OP, don't listen to any of these posters trying to convince you otherwise. Keep on researching schools that provide the best balance of aid & value for your son.

By the way, under 90k with multiple kids could definitely qualify for need-based aid in some places. A back of the envelope EFC for 90K and three kids is $4800/year. That leaves a lot of need that certain schools may be willing to fill in. Merit aid is of course also a distinct possibility for OP's kid, based on her description.

Are you actually "middle class" (45K per year) or DCUM middle class (100K)? You will be unlikely to get much aid at 100K or above. You child's SAT score is also not impressive.

I had nearly perfect SAT score and 4.0 as well as awards, volunteer work, etc. I did get into an Ivy and several top 10 schools, but not Stanford (my top choice). Admissions is a crapshoot that does not favor students.

OP, you are right that some (really just one or two) posts have been out of line. I would be angry too. But I also think you are resistant to the message that is pretty much the consensus of this thread, that your child is unlikely to be admitted to one of the top schools and that there isn't some kind of nefarious motive on the part of the guidance counselor. There is no question in my mind that he or she is delivering the same lesson to many a WASP family, with similar grades. Top 5% and certainly top 10% of the class isn't enough to get into these schools without an strong talent of some kind and your DC doesn't have that. THats the reality.

But clearly your DC should not apply ED to a school he doesn't want to attend, though its difficult to tease out what you want from what he wants. You only apply ED if you are absolutely certain..

So the answer is obvious -- don't apply ED. He should apply to a variety of schools INCLUDING one or two reaches, though don't get your hopes up. Make sure there are some realistic schools in the mix as well.

And try to take your chip off your shoulder. It is very difficult to have your child attend these schools if you aren't wealthy. I can see why you were suspicious. But now that you;ve done a reality check you should back off. In this case, there really doesn't seem to be anything amiss.

OP here. Lots to respond to.

I want to begin by thanking everyone for all of your thoughts and responses. Your insights have been diverse and wide-ranging, some very poignant and relevant...others not so much.

My concern, as I stated in the beginning, was on favoritism within the college counseling process. In other words, that even within elite schools, meritocracy exists side by side with mechanisms of elite social reproduction which engender the creation of "difference."

I have spoken to other parents at the school who have encouraged me to be more insistent with the college counselor and I will proceed accordingly. Perhaps I did not make this clear enough in my original post and I apologize if it appears to some that I may have ranted, however my original concern stemmed from the fact that DC was being strongly pressured to apply binding early admissions to a state school with a scholarship sponsored in part, by the independent school which he attends. DC has been well recognized academically in the school and received distinction by winning previous scholarships before so one parent, in particular, was very surprised when I mentioned what school the college counselor was pushing for.

Regarding finances: Yes. We do need merit based aid. Do you know what the reality is? The vast majority of families in America, were they to apply to Ivies and small LACs, are dependent on need-based financial aid. And, for high-achieving students from low-income families, highly-selective schools offer the clearest value proposition. For those who accuse us of "leeching off other parents" I think you need to critically re-examine your sense of empathy and the way that you perceive those who have not been given the same privileges as you. With three jobs between us, more than one child and a household income of less than 90k the reality is that while I do depend on the generosity of financial endowments I can still make sacrifices which permit me to save a thousand dollars per year so that I can contribute something to my child. We all know that education is not only about tuition. It also involves textbooks, clothing and a whole array of fees which add up and take a significant toll out of our household income. At the end of the day however, my DC's education is the most important thing both for me and my husband. Do you think I should apologize for driving a 12 year old car or, would you suggest that I leave my townhouse and move to a condo in an even further out suburb so that I can pay more money to DC's school as opposed to buying my son equipment for his varsity sport or the new computer he will need for college?

Again, to reiterate, I have confirmed that my child's GPA is competitive. I may not have the same resources as other parents but it is still possible for one to intuit things indirectly. Specifically, he has been selected for other opportunities which demand a high level of academic rigor so the strength of his academic record has implicitly been made clear to me. Period.

Anonymous wrote:There is no way OP is a working class, non-college educated person. You write as a very fluent, highly educated parent. You are probably from the educated, upper class fom Central America and are white since your child doesn't look stereotypically Hispanic. Why should your kid get a bump in college admissions? My DH and I are Hispanic from working class parents. Our parents never learned English fluently, never attended high school in Mexico and never made over minimum wage. We both benefited from affirmative action. Honestly our kids are now competing on a level playing field. You are an ingrate. You get a scholarship yet have money stashed away then you complain about the school.

Finally, I think it would be irresponsible to end without addressing this comment. Who do you think you are that you can judge not only my education but also my character???????? I am not going to go to lengths to substantiate my family background. Believe it or not, even in Central America (gasp!), quality public school education exists in certain countries and students who are able to access state resources can excel. This is largely an issue of geographic privilege-i.e. students in the capital are able to attend free missionary-led schools which teach in English or apply to state high schools which parents in rural areas are not able to benefit from. And, believe it or not, by high school, the Jesuit missionaries to whom I owe my entire education drew as much from the Bible as they did from Proust. It is only through their generosity that I was able to even dream of a world different from the one I observed around me, day by day. Unsurprisingly though, much of it goes over your head at the time if your parents, like mine, are only marginally literate. While I attended university in my country, my spouse did not. In fact, he did not even complete high school and comes from a very rural and poverty-ridden region. That being said, my academic background is not transferable within the United States so my professional life has been limited. Do you think that simply because I am Latino and foreign-born I am unable to write properly in English?? If so, thank you for type-casting the fastest growing minority population in the country! Who is to say, on the other hand, that my spouse speaks English? Your migration experience is not the same as mine nor that of my family. Not all Latinos are from Mexico. Despite my origins in a very humble community, I was very lucky and did have access to resources which others did not have access to. I'm sorry that your parents were victims of educational inequality yet I applaud you for taking initiative and benefiting from affirmative action policies, just as I am attempting to do for my child. Do you send your kids to a Big-3 school or a W school? Most people in these environments learn, as I have, that education is not and likely will never be a level playing field. There are too many vested interests operating within educational structures to even create the possibility of a system wherein every child has the equal capacity to play, as you suggest. I am deeply grateful for all the support and resources DC's school has provided us with yet don't operate under the assumption--even for a minute--that I am ungrateful. I have spoken to others at my church of DC's school and constantly encourage families to apply when they would never otherwise dream of doing so simply because of sticker shock or the intimidation that many feel in regards to these schools.

I did not write of my child's status as a URM in my original post as I knew that this would be a point of contention. College admissions is competitive and brings out rants and frustrations, as is visible even in my own behavior. In Latin America, as in the US, race is a fluid concept. Families may have one child who is phenotypically "white" and one who is not. My DC has been lucky in many, many situations as his physical appearance has shielded him from racism and discrimination which others in my family experience on a regular basis. Learn to speak for yourself and not for others.

Anonymous wrote:OP, did you attend college in the US? Did your spouse?
Did you attend in your native country or not? Your answers will also have an impact on admission chances.

OP, did you respond to this?

Clearly my two turned into more.. Oops!

I am a college counselor at an independent school. Two things:

- I would bet money that the counselor is encouraging an ED app to W&M. The mom may come back on here and say no so as not to out her son, but I'm pretty convinced for a variety of reasons that this is the case.

-I have worked at 3 different independent schools and have never once had access to a student's admissions application. If someone had an anglicized last name, looked white, and did not inform me otherwise, I would have no idea that they were another race. Checking "Hispanic" on the admissions application (that may have been from 13 years ago) has no bearing on my own assumptions because I wouldn't have access to it.

-Some of the "myths" about college counselors and college counseling in general, here, are just dumb. News flash: even if I hated your kid on a personal level, I still work my ass off to get them in to the best school possible because it makes me look good. And the idea that "everyone got into their top choice" with a crappy matriculations list is somehow better than an excellent matriculations list is just stupid.

-This student does not sound that special and as a pp mentioned, the very top schools are a reach for every single person in the country, no matter how good their scores and qualifications. For some schools, even highly competitive ones, I can look at a student's applicTion and pretty definitively say that yes they will get in and no they will not, mostly based on numbers. You CANNOT do this with hypsm etc. You just can't!

Anonymous wrote:There is no way OP is a working class, non-college educated person. You write as a very fluent, highly educated parent. You are probably from the educated, upper class fom Central America and are white since your child doesn't look stereotypically Hispanic. Why should your kid get a bump in college admissions? My DH and I are Hispanic from working class parents. Our parents never learned English fluently, never attended high school in Mexico and never made over minimum wage. We both benefited from affirmative action. Honestly our kids are now competing on a level playing field. You are an ingrate. You get a scholarship yet have money stashed away then you complain about the school.

Thank you, PP. I was thinking the very same thing that OP's writing style was extremely polished.