Anonymous
09/11/2014 11:38
Subject: Why Some People Convert to Islam
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Dodging and deflecting again. When busted with evidence, you jump to a different topic altogether.
You were asked about death for apostates in Islam. You STILL haven't answered. Who's the one dodging and deflecting?
There seems to be a conversation going on in this post between just 2 people. Since the discussion has come up about apostasy I would just like to offer what I have learned through research. I am not Muslim, I can not read the Quran in Arabic and must rely on a translation which, I sometime find inaccurate.
The authentically verified Hadith from Prophet Muhammad who said, "Whoever changes his religion kill him." This statement, however, would seem to contradict numerous verses in the Quran that guarantee freedom of belief, few of which include "There is no compulsion in religion" [2:256], and "Whoever so wills may believe and whoever so wills may deny" [18:29].
Although the above-mentioned Hadith is authentic, it is also established that Prophet Muhammad never ordered the death penalty to be carried out on people known during his time to have apostatised. Of such people was a Bedouin man who came to Medina (during a time of political and military power for Muslims) to announce his Islam, but apostatised and left the city a short period later without receiving any penalty for his subsequent rejection.
Given how the Prophet treated individuals who entered and left Islam, and the numerous verses in the Quran guaranteeing freedom of belief, the Hadith decreeing a death penalty for apostasy becomes more puzzling. This can be resolved by turning to another authentic Hadith where this penalty is mentioned, but with a qualifier: "…the one leaving his religion and abandoning the group". In addition, another verse in the Quran, which can further resolve this conundrum speaks to a strategy adopted by a rival sect in Medina in one of their attempts to create a schism within the nascent Muslim community by pretending to enter Islam in the morning, then leaving it in the evening [3:72].
Its interesting to note that prior to entering Islam, the two biggest tribes in Medina were engaged in a lengthy civil war that only ended when their allegiances were redefined from the tribal to the religious. If these new allegiances were jeopardised, it was highly likely to lead to civil strife and loss of life again. Hence, the Hadith about the death penalty is not about apostasy in the strict sense of no longer believing in Islam per se. Rather, it is about what can be considered in modern terms political treason.
Human rights violations do occur in which any number of religious justifications have been used and are not limited to the Islamic faith.
Anonymous
09/11/2014 10:51
Subject: Why Some People Convert to Islam
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
Make up your mind, didn't you tell Jeff what Muslims say or do is inconsequential or irrelevant? You said you needed scriptural proof. Yet you're relying on people's beliefs as representative of Islam. Can't have it both ways. Its the surest sign that you lost this one.
Anyway, looking forward to disseminating Dr. Jerald Dirks' work, particularly on DCUM, but certainly not limited to it.
Can't wait for other posters to keep posting this: http://formermuslimsunited.org/apostasy-from-islam/. And so much more....
STILL curious about your response to it!
Here's my response to it:
http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/02/nonie-darwish-caught-in-a-pool-of-lies/
That site makes ugly personal attacks on the Muslim converts to Christanity. That's definitely your style. Still, we keep hoping that you can do better, and address the CONTENT of the claim that Muslim converts to Christianity are subject to the death penalty under the Quran and all types of shariah.
Anonymous
09/11/2014 10:47
Subject: Why Some People Convert to Islam
Anonymous wrote:Create a thread for it then.
Why? Unlike you I'm not obsessed with starting multiple threads to promote my religion. Just answer the question, and without more links to biased Muslim websites.
Anonymous
09/11/2014 10:45
Subject: Why Some People Convert to Islam
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:OP here.
PP is so right. No one will watch this link. So here is a brief summary...
A brief summary of Dr. Jerald Dirks, the ordained deacon who went on to Harvard University, then to Harvard Divinity School, and is now a Harvard Divinity School professor..He converted to Islam after he began reading the world's oldest existing texts before the Bible was even in existence. He was systematically exposed to these texts in Divinity School. It shocked him to learn the oldest manuscripts were different from the existing Bible today in several important areas such as trinity and crucification. Since he had knoweldge that the vast majority of Christians were not exposed to or aware of, and he still loved parts of Christianity, he continued to think of himself as an atypical Christian. Years later, he studied the Quran and began to realize that his new belief system based on the new knowledge he acquired from researching the old, original manuscripts matched Islamic beliefs. Thus, he converted to Islam.
Bump
We certainly would not want people to forget about Dr. Dirks' impressive biography!
You gave me an idea. Leaflets. On cars. Best way to quickly inform people of Dirks' findings.
Anonymous
09/11/2014 10:44
Subject: Why Some People Convert to Islam
Create a thread for it then.
Anonymous
09/11/2014 10:40
Subject: Why Some People Convert to Islam
Anonymous wrote:Dodging and deflecting again. When busted with evidence, you jump to a different topic altogether.
You were asked about death for apostates in Islam. You STILL haven't answered. Who's the one dodging and deflecting?
Anonymous
09/11/2014 10:38
Subject: Why Some People Convert to Islam
Anonymous wrote:
Bump: we wouldn't want people to forget what Islam does to Muslims who convert to other religions, even if OP seems to want to forget it: http://formermuslimsunited.org/apostasy-from-islam/.
(I'm not really as childish as you, but I think it's hilarious to emulate you.)
Anonymous
09/11/2014 10:38
Subject: Why Some People Convert to Islam
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
Make up your mind, didn't you tell Jeff what Muslims say or do is inconsequential or irrelevant? You said you needed scriptural proof. Yet you're relying on people's beliefs as representative of Islam. Can't have it both ways. Its the surest sign that you lost this one.
Anyway, looking forward to disseminating Dr. Jerald Dirks' work, particularly on DCUM, but certainly not limited to it.
Can't wait for other posters to keep posting this: http://formermuslimsunited.org/apostasy-from-islam/. And so much more....
STILL curious about your response to it!
Here's my response to it:
http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/02/nonie-darwish-caught-in-a-pool-of-lies/
Anonymous
09/11/2014 10:37
Subject: Why Some People Convert to Islam
Dodging and deflecting again. When busted with evidence, you jump to a different topic altogether.
Anonymous
09/11/2014 10:36
Subject: Why Some People Convert to Islam
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
Make up your mind, didn't you tell Jeff what Muslims say or do is inconsequential or irrelevant? You said you needed scriptural proof. Yet you're relying on people's beliefs as representative of Islam. Can't have it both ways. Its the surest sign that you lost this one.
Anyway, looking forward to disseminating Dr. Jerald Dirks' work, particularly on DCUM, but certainly not limited to it.
Can't wait for other posters to keep posting this: http://formermuslimsunited.org/apostasy-from-islam/. And so much more....
STILL curious about your response to it!
Anonymous
09/11/2014 10:34
Subject: Why Some People Convert to Islam
Anonymous wrote:OP here.
PP is so right. No one will watch this link. So here is a brief summary...
A brief summary of Dr. Jerald Dirks, the ordained deacon who went on to Harvard University, then to Harvard Divinity School, and is now a Harvard Divinity School professor..He converted to Islam after he began reading the world's oldest existing texts before the Bible was even in existence. He was systematically exposed to these texts in Divinity School. It shocked him to learn the oldest manuscripts were different from the existing Bible today in several important areas such as trinity and crucification. Since he had knoweldge that the vast majority of Christians were not exposed to or aware of, and he still loved parts of Christianity, he continued to think of himself as an atypical Christian. Years later, he studied the Quran and began to realize that his new belief system based on the new knowledge he acquired from researching the old, original manuscripts matched Islamic beliefs. Thus, he converted to Islam.
Bump
We certainly would not want people to forget about Dr. Dirks' impressive biography!
Anonymous
09/11/2014 10:31
Subject: Why Some People Convert to Islam
Anonymous wrote:
Make up your mind, didn't you tell Jeff what Muslims say or do is inconsequential or irrelevant? You said you needed scriptural proof. Yet you're relying on people's beliefs as representative of Islam. Can't have it both ways. Its the surest sign that you lost this one.
Anyway, looking forward to disseminating Dr. Jerald Dirks' work, particularly on DCUM, but certainly not limited to it.
Can't wait for other posters to keep posting this: http://formermuslimsunited.org/apostasy-from-islam/. And so much more....
STILL curious about your response to it!
Anonymous
09/11/2014 10:28
Subject: Why Some People Convert to Islam
Anonymous wrote:
Well that would be presumptive. But a typical person who is curious should at minimum want to call him and see if he can have access to the same original manuscripts. Copies may be accessible to anyone at the Harvard Divinity School. Interested?
Nope. Zero interest. I took a class on Islam in college and I've followed this thread. I found the other posters to be much more persuasive than you.
Go ahead and post everything you want. Your claims that Christianity requires concubines, polygamy, and veils have already been demolished, so I can't wait to see what you come up with next. In fact, given your track record so far (your record of offering half-truths and gross distortions about both Islam and Christianity), the fact that you're going to be personally picking out some more links is actually a recommendation against reading such links.
Still interested in your reaction to this: http://formermuslimsunited.org/apostasy-from-islam/
Anonymous
09/11/2014 10:21
Subject: Why Some People Convert to Islam
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
You guys seem to have lots of problems with poor folks, African Americans, and blue collar workers, such as carpenters. Wasn't Jesus a carpenter or handyman of some kind? The question isn't whether the writers teachers were upset with him, but if he is quoting the Bible accurately. After all, his instructors may be themselves mistaken.
Lets get back to Dr. Jerald Dirks, though. Anyone care to do a bit of digging to get copies of those manuscripts?
For the record, I don't think you're really this dense. I think you pretend to be dense because you can never concede that you're wrong.
The point is, it's hypocritical for you to claim that Bin Baz is wrong and you're right, but then you claim this home churcher represents the rest of Christianity. This guy, whoever he is, is on the fringes, but Bin Baz is widely followed.
Have you read PP's link about Islamic rules for beheading Muslims who convert to Christianity yet? http://formermuslimsunited.org/apostasy-from-islam/
Make up your mind, didn't you tell Jeff what Muslims say or do is inconsequential or irrelevant? You said you needed scriptural proof. Yet you're relying on people's beliefs as representative of Islam. Can't have it both ways. Its the surest sign that you lost this one.
Anyway, looking forward to disseminating Dr. Jerald Dirks' work, particularly on DCUM, but certainly not limited to it.
Anonymous
09/11/2014 10:16
Subject: Why Some People Convert to Islam
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Getting this thread back to it's topic….
Here is a wonderful link of a former ordained Deacon, who graduated from Harvard undergraduate school, then graduated from Harvard Divinity School. He is now a Harvard Divinity School professor that converted to Islam. It's one hour long.
He explains why…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTqrOurm8KU
You realize no one will watch that, right?
OMG, he went to Harvard. That's it, I'm converting to Islam now. Not.
Well that would be presumptive. But a typical person who is curious should at minimum want to call him and see if he can have access to the same original manuscripts. Copies may be accessible to anyone at the Harvard Divinity School. Interested?
Have you read the other PP's link yet? http://formermuslimsunited.org/apostasy-from-islam/ It's about the death penalty for Muslims who convert to other religions. Interested?
Tell you what-- since you and your posse were so interested in disseminating info about my faith, I will disseminate info about your faith. I have the time and the resources. I will contact Dr. Jerald Dirks and start distributing copies of these original manuscript. I realize others won't have the ability to go to Harvard Divinity School to obtain these. I can. I have family in the northeast.
If I don't refer to Harvard which is where Dr. Dirks is working, how should I refer to his location? Should I call it "that prestigious school I am afraid to name for fear some might think I'm bragging"?? Or that "Ivy school"? Or maybe "the school Obama graduated from which shall henceforth be nameless" ?