Anonymous
09/09/2014 23:52
Subject: Re:Compelling conversion is explicitly prohibited in Islam
“Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued” [at-Tawbah 9:29].
The majority of scholars hold that the above verse abrogates the "no compulsion" verse. Jews and Christians cannot be forced to embrace Islam, they are given the choice of keeping their religion as long as they pay the Jizyah and conform to the rules of Sharia. However, other religions are not given this choice and must convert to Islam.
The majority of scholars hold that the above verse abrogates the "no compulsion" verse. Jews and Christians cannot be forced to embrace Islam, they are given the choice of keeping their religion as long as they pay the Jizyah and conform to the rules of Sharia. However, other religions are not given this choice and must convert to Islam.
Anonymous
09/09/2014 23:45
Subject: Compelling conversion is explicitly prohibited in Islam
Anonymous wrote:Churches
Regarding churches, `Umar ibn-al-Khattâb wrote that any church which was built after the coming of Islam should be destroyed, and he forbade any new church to be built. He also commanded that the exterior of a church should not be such as to attract attention, and if any cross is displayed outside the church it should be broken over the head of the owner of the church.
`Urwa ibn-Muhammad used to destroy churches in Sanâ`a.[3] This is the position of all Muslim scholars.
`Umar ibn-`Abdal`azîz was particularly severe about this. He ordered that in Islamic territory no synagogue or church should be left, whether old ones or new. Al-Hasan al-Basrî held the same opinion when he said: "It is a sunna to destroy the churches which are in old or new cities, and to prevent the people under dhimma to rebuild what fell into ruins."
Al-Istakhrî said: "If they want to plaster the outside of the walls, they should be prevented, but not the inside. Their churches may not be higher than the buildings of the Muslims. According to one opinion they may be of equal height, but according to another opinion they may not be."
You went to great length arguing that you don't think what Muslims do or say is relevant. But now suddenly what they say and do IS relevant, because you need it to prove your point. It doesn't matter what Umar or anyone says or thinks. No human is infallible and above God. The Quran is the word of God and here's what the Quran said about Christians:
"...and nearest among them in love to the believers will you find those who say, 'We are Christians,' because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant" (5:82).
I can not imagine the same God that said this would also expect Muslims to destroy all synogogues or churches, despite the fact that in them are men who are close to God. It's a contradiction, which should lead you to question the people destroying the places of worship, not the Quran and not the religion.
Anonymous
09/09/2014 23:30
Subject: Compelling conversion is explicitly prohibited in Islam
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
Frankly, if Jizya is less than the zakat for muslims, and it exempts nonMuslims from military service yet still entitles them to the same protection, I would think nonMuslims have it a bit easier. Nothing oppressive in that.
Being treated as a second class citizen IS oppressive, and no one would claim that in an Islamic state, the status of Muslims is equal to that of non-Muslims. Islamic states very clearly and unapologetically privilege one over the other.
Please list the privileges Muslim citizens have over nonMuslim citizens in an Islamic State.
For one, an unconditional transfer of custody of children to the Muslim spouse in case of divorce. And considering that only men could marry non-Muslims in a Muslim state, and that divorce is incredibly easy for Muslim men, I'd say that's a clear privilege a Muslim has over a non-Muslim.
I will answer this only because it relates to the subject of the thread:
http://islam.about.com/od/marriage/ss/stepstodivorce_5.htm
The Sharia (Islamic Law) varies from country to country. And sometimes the Sharia can even contradict the Quran. It shoudn't but it does. For example, some Sharia may state that if a man and woman divorce, the wife must return her dowry and other gifts she received. The Quran explicitly prohibits this. This is precisely why the Sharia, to me, does not reflect TRUE Islam. If the Sharia contradicts the Quran, it's a red flag that it has deviated from what God intended.
Child custody depends wholly on who is the better parent for the children, the age of the children, and in the Quran Allah asks that both parties decide amicably.
Divorce
Anonymous
09/09/2014 22:18
Subject: Compelling conversion is explicitly prohibited in Islam
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Too bad all of these discussions about Islam go off the rails. I guess it's no different than any other subject on DCM but it's a shame. I'd like to learn what it is about Islam that seems to work for so many people. I don't see it.
You either have a religious gene or you don't.
Well, I do and I still don't see it. I think religions should help us be better people. I look to the teachings of religion to help me be a better person than I am by seeing an example of someone who was able to live a better way than most people are able to, and to encourage me to turn the other cheek, love my neighbor etc -- all the things I know are right, but don't necessarily come easily. If I wanted to be a good soldier, I would look to a soldier as my mentor. I don't get what the point of that is.
I think that the flaw in your approach is that you wish for religious guidance to work for all areas of your life. That may not happen. All religions have good parts and bad parts. You can appreciate Islam for its good parts without feeling the need to apologize or embrace the bad parts. Enjoy Islam for the beautiful things it offers - the cohesion of families, the respect toward elders, the near-worship of mothers, the strong emphasis on male as a provider and protector, the urging to stand behind promises etc. Don't look for it to be all things to all your questions.
Anonymous
09/09/2014 22:07
Subject: Compelling conversion is explicitly prohibited in Islam
Anonymous wrote:Too bad all of these discussions about Islam go off the rails. I guess it's no different than any other subject on DCM but it's a shame. I'd like to learn what it is about Islam that seems to work for so many people. I don't see it.
We need some different representatives of Islam. The flowery descriptions can be nice. I also appreciate that we're getting their personal views, although I posted earlier that sometimes it sounds like we're getting the How to Convert the Kaffir playbook, and I just can't tell. My real concern is that these two also make demonstrable errors over things that aren't actually up for personal interpretation, they both systematically omit less appealing facts, and when they get called out on something, the result really isn't pretty. I've learned more from the other PPs here.
Anonymous
09/09/2014 22:04
Subject: Compelling conversion is explicitly prohibited in Islam
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Too bad all of these discussions about Islam go off the rails. I guess it's no different than any other subject on DCM but it's a shame. I'd like to learn what it is about Islam that seems to work for so many people. I don't see it.
You either have a religious gene or you don't.
Well, I do and I still don't see it. I think religions should help us be better people. I look to the teachings of religion to help me be a better person than I am by seeing an example of someone who was able to live a better way than most people are able to, and to encourage me to turn the other cheek, love my neighbor etc -- all the things I know are right, but don't necessarily come easily. If I wanted to be a good soldier, I would look to a soldier as my mentor. I don't get what the point of that is.
Anonymous
09/09/2014 21:58
Subject: Compelling conversion is explicitly prohibited in Islam
Anonymous wrote:Too bad all of these discussions about Islam go off the rails. I guess it's no different than any other subject on DCM but it's a shame. I'd like to learn what it is about Islam that seems to work for so many people. I don't see it.
You either have a religious gene or you don't.
Anonymous
09/09/2014 21:56
Subject: Compelling conversion is explicitly prohibited in Islam
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Too bad all of these discussions about Islam go off the rails. I guess it's no different than any other subject on DCM but it's a shame. I'd like to learn what it is about Islam that seems to work for so many people. I don't see it.
People love having a sense of certainty, which Islam gives them. Islam also gives highly specific guidelines for every aspect of life, and lots of people crave that as well.
I think that describes all religions.
No, not really. Islam is a lot simpler than Christianity, for example. You try to explain the trinity. Christianity also has a lot of ambiguity in your specific actions.
I think all religions ask you to believe in things that can't possibly, by the laws of known science and physics, be true. Islam is no exception.
Islam also, like all religions, limits independent thinking by the rule of "it is not fitting for a believer to question something when the prophet ruled otherwise." "We hear and we obey." But all religions are like that.
Anonymous
09/09/2014 21:54
Subject: Compelling conversion is explicitly prohibited in Islam
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Too bad all of these discussions about Islam go off the rails. I guess it's no different than any other subject on DCM but it's a shame. I'd like to learn what it is about Islam that seems to work for so many people. I don't see it.
People love having a sense of certainty, which Islam gives them. Islam also gives highly specific guidelines for every aspect of life, and lots of people crave that as well.
Some people do. Not all people. Some people find that oppressive.
Anonymous
09/09/2014 19:48
Subject: Compelling conversion is explicitly prohibited in Islam
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Too bad all of these discussions about Islam go off the rails. I guess it's no different than any other subject on DCM but it's a shame. I'd like to learn what it is about Islam that seems to work for so many people. I don't see it.
People love having a sense of certainty, which Islam gives them. Islam also gives highly specific guidelines for every aspect of life, and lots of people crave that as well.
I think that describes all religions.
No, not really. Islam is a lot simpler than Christianity, for example. You try to explain the trinity. Christianity also has a lot of ambiguity in your specific actions.
Anonymous
09/09/2014 18:17
Subject: Compelling conversion is explicitly prohibited in Islam
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Too bad all of these discussions about Islam go off the rails. I guess it's no different than any other subject on DCM but it's a shame. I'd like to learn what it is about Islam that seems to work for so many people. I don't see it.
People love having a sense of certainty, which Islam gives them. Islam also gives highly specific guidelines for every aspect of life, and lots of people crave that as well.
I think that describes all religions.
Not all religions give a sense of certainty. While all religions have some guidelines for daily living, most are not highly specific and detailed.
Anonymous
09/09/2014 18:12
Subject: Compelling conversion is explicitly prohibited in Islam
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Too bad all of these discussions about Islam go off the rails. I guess it's no different than any other subject on DCM but it's a shame. I'd like to learn what it is about Islam that seems to work for so many people. I don't see it.
People love having a sense of certainty, which Islam gives them. Islam also gives highly specific guidelines for every aspect of life, and lots of people crave that as well.
I think that describes all religions.
Anonymous
09/09/2014 18:10
Subject: Compelling conversion is explicitly prohibited in Islam
Anonymous wrote:Too bad all of these discussions about Islam go off the rails. I guess it's no different than any other subject on DCM but it's a shame. I'd like to learn what it is about Islam that seems to work for so many people. I don't see it.
People love having a sense of certainty, which Islam gives them. Islam also gives highly specific guidelines for every aspect of life, and lots of people crave that as well.
Anonymous
09/09/2014 17:53
Subject: Compelling conversion is explicitly prohibited in Islam
Too bad all of these discussions about Islam go off the rails. I guess it's no different than any other subject on DCM but it's a shame. I'd like to learn what it is about Islam that seems to work for so many people. I don't see it.
Anonymous
09/09/2014 17:51
Subject: Re:Compelling conversion is explicitly prohibited in Islam
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
You intrigue me, as a psychiatric case, that is. Any bipolar in your family? The rapid fire posts of yours (most are yours I believe) are indicative of a manic person. It would explain a lot, in which case I would apologize to you.
You obviously have a lot of free time. Are you employed or rather, employable? I can not reply extensive answers throughout the day as you do. I have other responsibilities. But I will later. Way too much bs to expose in your posts.
Why does that matter?
Are you also interested in my cooking skills?
ha ha, I was about to say kettle, meet pot.