Anonymous
04/22/2014 13:27
Subject: Black moms and hitting
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I guess my concern is this. There is always a co-mingling of discipline with abuse. Why is hitting assumed to be associated with cursing and anger and a lack of control?
There is a difference.
Maybe because abusive behavior that is is in public and out of control are the only forms of "hitting" you are seeing - so some of you assume it is only done that way? Perhaps there is a misconception on the effectiveness on discipline because an effective positive example has not been seen. No well disciplined child hates or resents or pulls away from their parent for it.
For me, this is a consideration about spanking as a form of discipline -- NOT ABUSE. ABUSE IS WRONG. What OP described was abuse!
The question is - where does it become abuse?
As soon as you strike your child, it is abuse. It's not that complicated.
And, it would be abuse even if he calmly told me why he was hitting me.
Anonymous
04/22/2014 13:24
Subject: Black moms and hitting
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:White lady here. I grew up lower MC in a heavily Latino neighborhood. Everyone spanked and hit their kids. Fast forward to now- I am well off and guess what? Most my friends who are also well-off spank or hit their kids! They just don't admit to it as freely and won't do it in public. I believe the higher the SES, the more things are done in private. That's my hypotheses and I am sticking to it.
Clearly higher SES individuals spank less than lower status families. I know very few people that spank their kids, and the data bear this out:
http://www.world-science.net/othernews/090924_spanking.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2759998/
http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/CP36.pdf
Sorry but these are self-reported.
(FYI. I am an anti-spanking, as in it should be outlawed. But as I posted above the studies rely on self-reporting, which I think is unreliable.)
Why should it be outlawed? I guess I shouldn't be too surprised, but for an area that is supposed to be more worldly and sophisticated people here seem to think their way is the best and only way. There are billions of people around the world that spank their kids. How is your way better than another culture's way? Because studies have shown xyz? Those studies are skewed and don't apply to every culture.
I'm not saying that the case that OP saw is ok. I'm saying there are different ways to parent, and spanking judiciously when it's called for doesn't mean the child will be scarred for life.
This is what happens when you don't firmly discipline kids. Read the link about Sweden. This country is in danger of ending up like Sweden as far as child rearing goes. It's a slippery slope: don't spank your kids, don't yell at your kids, don't speak sternly to your kids, don't say "no" to your kids...
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303519404579354801246309702
Here's another way to frame it. It is a criminal offense to hit another person (battery). Should you be immune from prosecution because you are hitting a young person that you gave birth to (or adopted)? It's asurd that I can hit my kid and no one will intervene, but if my neighbor does, she can (rightfully) go to jail. When does my battery grace period end? When my kid is 18? If I "spank" my 19 year old, she can turn around and press charges. But if she's small, it's okay?
There are zero benefits to hitting children. Everyone who I know that hits has serious problems with self-control, or is just a bad person.
If you knew everyone in the world, then your perspective may hold SOME value. As it stands, you don't. So your perspective is not a statistical fact.
Plus, you are now reaching into territory where other people have religious beliefs that support it:
Proverbs 13:24: He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
That bible verse says nothing about abuse. It is saying long term you can do more damage by failing to discipline your child. Its not promoting abuse - its suggesting that it be another tool (like time out).
If a child touches a fire and you say no, and put up safeguards and they keep burning theirself - would you slap their hand so that they know there is a consequence?
Rather the consequence of the hand being slapped than a burn?
There are ways to integrate spaking and discipline effectively. To take it all away is like suggesting that prayer should be taken away too because you don't like it.
They don't spank in schools, or pray anymore. That is enough. What happens at home, if it is not abusive, is the right of the parent. Next people will want to regulate how many hours parents must make kids do homework.
I am not a Christian, but if people use Christianity to justify hitting children, I still think it is wrong. Just like using religion to justify abuse of women, slavery, etc. I also understand from some Christian friends that "spare the rod" doesn't mean you have to hit your kids with a rod. You use a rod to herd/guide sheep, not beat them. So "spare the rod" means, more broadly, sparing discipline. Numerous studies show that children who are hit do worse over time than children whose parents use more effective parenting techniques.
As for the fire - again, if you're not a lazy parent you should be able to have a discipline method that keeps your kids safe. Hitting occasionally is admittedly easier than teaching your kid to be responsible to less abusive measures. Hitting doesn't require 100% consistency, I suppose, since you rely on fear. But other methods require consistency, and some parents are just too lazy. So they hit instead. Hitting is per se abusive. If my husband "spanked" me for not putting my dish back into the sink, or arguing with him, it would obviously be abuse. But if he "spanked" my child for the same thing it wouldn't be abuse? Why? Because she's smaller than me? At least I can defend myself.
I am PP. I don't agree 100% with you, but we are in agreement of some points - e.g. the rod being a method to guide a child. But for some children, slapping a hand, with a ruler, is a method. To assume that resorting to that method indicates laziness isn't fair because you don't know how many other techniques have been applied. Also don't think its fair to compare the role and function of a husband with that of a parent. If my husband told me go to bed, I would also find it controlling. We are parents for the purposes of helping to establish boundaries until a child is mature enough to draw their own. Additionally, biblical principles are best taken in whole, not pieces, so unless you place it in the context of a mode of thinking, it is too much to explain. Perhaps another time.
Bottom line, I will agree to disagree with you on this. Circular logic, and no new points are being raised. Which is fine. We don't have to agree for me to respect your style of parenting, hopefully you heard some points that will help you respect others without judgement or a threat to have them outlawed. =)
Anonymous
04/22/2014 13:23
Subject: Black moms and hitting
Anonymous wrote:I guess my concern is this. There is always a co-mingling of discipline with abuse. Why is hitting assumed to be associated with cursing and anger and a lack of control?
There is a difference.
Maybe because abusive behavior that is is in public and out of control are the only forms of "hitting" you are seeing - so some of you assume it is only done that way? Perhaps there is a misconception on the effectiveness on discipline because an effective positive example has not been seen. No well disciplined child hates or resents or pulls away from their parent for it.
For me, this is a consideration about spanking as a form of discipline -- NOT ABUSE. ABUSE IS WRONG. What OP described was abuse!
The question is - where does it become abuse?
As soon as you strike your child, it is abuse. It's not that complicated.
Anonymous
04/22/2014 13:22
Subject: Black moms and hitting
Anonymous wrote:I find it interesting that a lot of threads in DCUM seem to be White parents "analyzing" or attemtping to analyze how other races parent. We have threads like this and threads about Asian "Tiger moms." What's this all about? I do not think that parents of any race parent "monolithically" and I think that you will find that good and bad parents come in all races. Why this push to make certain parenting methods the province of one race or another? What is the point?
What's more entertaining a calm, quiet discussion where parties concur with and concede to one another or a knock down drag out opinionated brawl of obtuse assumptions and assessments? Exactly...the latter. The threads that revolve around argument are the ones that receive all the attention as everyone wants to add their two cents and be a part of the melee. Now it may be possible to get some parents fussing back and forth about feeding a friend's child peanut butter without asking whether or not that child is allergic or not - but let's be honest the odds of such a fracas developing are slim to none. So...since that won't work and is unlikely to garner much attention what's another sure-fire way to rile people up and get a good argument going? Exactly...race.
Anonymous
04/22/2014 13:22
Subject: Black moms and hitting
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:White lady here. I grew up lower MC in a heavily Latino neighborhood. Everyone spanked and hit their kids. Fast forward to now- I am well off and guess what? Most my friends who are also well-off spank or hit their kids! They just don't admit to it as freely and won't do it in public. I believe the higher the SES, the more things are done in private. That's my hypotheses and I am sticking to it.
Clearly higher SES individuals spank less than lower status families. I know very few people that spank their kids, and the data bear this out:
http://www.world-science.net/othernews/090924_spanking.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2759998/
http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/CP36.pdf
Sorry but these are self-reported.
(FYI. I am an anti-spanking, as in it should be outlawed. But as I posted above the studies rely on self-reporting, which I think is unreliable.)
Why should it be outlawed? I guess I shouldn't be too surprised, but for an area that is supposed to be more worldly and sophisticated people here seem to think their way is the best and only way. There are billions of people around the world that spank their kids. How is your way better than another culture's way? Because studies have shown xyz? Those studies are skewed and don't apply to every culture.
I'm not saying that the case that OP saw is ok. I'm saying there are different ways to parent, and spanking judiciously when it's called for doesn't mean the child will be scarred for life.
This is what happens when you don't firmly discipline kids. Read the link about Sweden. This country is in danger of ending up like Sweden as far as child rearing goes. It's a slippery slope: don't spank your kids, don't yell at your kids, don't speak sternly to your kids, don't say "no" to your kids...
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303519404579354801246309702
Here's another way to frame it. It is a criminal offense to hit another person (battery). Should you be immune from prosecution because you are hitting a young person that you gave birth to (or adopted)? It's asurd that I can hit my kid and no one will intervene, but if my neighbor does, she can (rightfully) go to jail. When does my battery grace period end? When my kid is 18? If I "spank" my 19 year old, she can turn around and press charges. But if she's small, it's okay?
There are zero benefits to hitting children. Everyone who I know that hits has serious problems with self-control, or is just a bad person.
I feel the same way about parents who yell and curse at their kids or the parents who withhold affection as discipline. Emotional and verbal abuse are just as damaging. So how do you handle parents who do not hit, but call their kids every foul name in the book?
I don't know the answer...but just because there are multiple ways to damage your child doesn't mean we can stand by and let them all go on. I agree that calling kids foul names is terrible and damaging. But from a legal perspective, hitting another adult is illegal. Calling another adult a foul name is not. My point is that it is totally illogical that hitting a small child is somehow ok under the law, but hitting an adult is not ok.
Anonymous
04/22/2014 13:18
Subject: Black moms and hitting
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:White lady here. I grew up lower MC in a heavily Latino neighborhood. Everyone spanked and hit their kids. Fast forward to now- I am well off and guess what? Most my friends who are also well-off spank or hit their kids! They just don't admit to it as freely and won't do it in public. I believe the higher the SES, the more things are done in private. That's my hypotheses and I am sticking to it.
Clearly higher SES individuals spank less than lower status families. I know very few people that spank their kids, and the data bear this out:
http://www.world-science.net/othernews/090924_spanking.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2759998/
http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/CP36.pdf
Sorry but these are self-reported.
(FYI. I am an anti-spanking, as in it should be outlawed. But as I posted above the studies rely on self-reporting, which I think is unreliable.)
Why should it be outlawed? I guess I shouldn't be too surprised, but for an area that is supposed to be more worldly and sophisticated people here seem to think their way is the best and only way. There are billions of people around the world that spank their kids. How is your way better than another culture's way? Because studies have shown xyz? Those studies are skewed and don't apply to every culture.
I'm not saying that the case that OP saw is ok. I'm saying there are different ways to parent, and spanking judiciously when it's called for doesn't mean the child will be scarred for life.
This is what happens when you don't firmly discipline kids. Read the link about Sweden. This country is in danger of ending up like Sweden as far as child rearing goes. It's a slippery slope: don't spank your kids, don't yell at your kids, don't speak sternly to your kids, don't say "no" to your kids...
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303519404579354801246309702
Here's another way to frame it. It is a criminal offense to hit another person (battery). Should you be immune from prosecution because you are hitting a young person that you gave birth to (or adopted)? It's asurd that I can hit my kid and no one will intervene, but if my neighbor does, she can (rightfully) go to jail. When does my battery grace period end? When my kid is 18? If I "spank" my 19 year old, she can turn around and press charges. But if she's small, it's okay?
There are zero benefits to hitting children. Everyone who I know that hits has serious problems with self-control, or is just a bad person.
If you knew everyone in the world, then your perspective may hold SOME value. As it stands, you don't. So your perspective is not a statistical fact.
Plus, you are now reaching into territory where other people have religious beliefs that support it:
Proverbs 13:24: He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
That bible verse says nothing about abuse. It is saying long term you can do more damage by failing to discipline your child. Its not promoting abuse - its suggesting that it be another tool (like time out).
If a child touches a fire and you say no, and put up safeguards and they keep burning theirself - would you slap their hand so that they know there is a consequence?
Rather the consequence of the hand being slapped than a burn?
There are ways to integrate spaking and discipline effectively. To take it all away is like suggesting that prayer should be taken away too because you don't like it.
They don't spank in schools, or pray anymore. That is enough. What happens at home, if it is not abusive, is the right of the parent. Next people will want to regulate how many hours parents must make kids do homework.
I am not a Christian, but if people use Christianity to justify hitting children, I still think it is wrong. Just like using religion to justify abuse of women, slavery, etc. I also understand from some Christian friends that "spare the rod" doesn't mean you have to hit your kids with a rod. You use a rod to herd/guide sheep, not beat them. So "spare the rod" means, more broadly, sparing discipline. Numerous studies show that children who are hit do worse over time than children whose parents use more effective parenting techniques.
As for the fire - again, if you're not a lazy parent you should be able to have a discipline method that keeps your kids safe. Hitting occasionally is admittedly easier than teaching your kid to be responsible to less abusive measures. Hitting doesn't require 100% consistency, I suppose, since you rely on fear. But other methods require consistency, and some parents are just too lazy. So they hit instead. Hitting is per se abusive. If my husband "spanked" me for not putting my dish back into the sink, or arguing with him, it would obviously be abuse. But if he "spanked" my child for the same thing it wouldn't be abuse? Why? Because she's smaller than me? At least I can defend myself.
Anonymous
04/22/2014 13:07
Subject: Black moms and hitting
I guess my concern is this. There is always a co-mingling of discipline with abuse. Why is hitting assumed to be associated with cursing and anger and a lack of control?
There is a difference.
Maybe because abusive behavior that is is in public and out of control are the only forms of "hitting" you are seeing - so some of you assume it is only done that way? Perhaps there is a misconception on the effectiveness on discipline because an effective positive example has not been seen. No well disciplined child hates or resents or pulls away from their parent for it.
For me, this is a consideration about spanking as a form of discipline -- NOT ABUSE. ABUSE IS WRONG. What OP described was abuse!
The question is - where does it become abuse?
There is a difference.
Maybe because abusive behavior that is is in public and out of control are the only forms of "hitting" you are seeing - so some of you assume it is only done that way? Perhaps there is a misconception on the effectiveness on discipline because an effective positive example has not been seen. No well disciplined child hates or resents or pulls away from their parent for it.
For me, this is a consideration about spanking as a form of discipline -- NOT ABUSE. ABUSE IS WRONG. What OP described was abuse!
The question is - where does it become abuse?
Anonymous
04/22/2014 13:02
Subject: Black moms and hitting
Why should it be outlawed? I guess I shouldn't be too surprised, but for an area that is supposed to be more worldly and sophisticated people here seem to think their way is the best and only way. There are billions of people around the world that spank their kids. How is your way better than another culture's way? Because studies have shown xyz? Those studies are skewed and don't apply to every culture.
I'm not saying that the case that OP saw is ok. I'm saying there are different ways to parent, and spanking judiciously when it's called for doesn't mean the child will be scarred for life.
This is what happens when you don't firmly discipline kids. Read the link about Sweden. This country is in danger of ending up like Sweden as far as child rearing goes. It's a slippery slope: don't spank your kids, don't yell at your kids, don't speak sternly to your kids, don't say "no" to your kids...
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303519404579354801246309702
Here's another way to frame it. It is a criminal offense to hit another person (battery). Should you be immune from prosecution because you are hitting a young person that you gave birth to (or adopted)? It's asurd that I can hit my kid and no one will intervene, but if my neighbor does, she can (rightfully) go to jail. When does my battery grace period end? When my kid is 18? If I "spank" my 19 year old, she can turn around and press charges. But if she's small, it's okay?
There are zero benefits to hitting children. Everyone who I know that hits has serious problems with self-control, or is just a bad person.
I feel the same way about parents who yell and curse at their kids or the parents who withhold affection as discipline. Emotional and verbal abuse are just as damaging. So how do you handle parents who do not hit, but call their kids every foul name in the book?
This is a GREAT point. Verbal/Emotional abuse is just as, if not more, damaging than physical abuse. I can think of a few examples of people who were verbally abused as children, that later faced many problems (risky sexual behavior, tolerance for sexual abuse, violence, drug use, depression, etc.).
