Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:
The fact that you find those "boy traits" unflattering is why school is so hard on boys. Boys really need to do things like run around a lot more than girls do. They naturally swing sticks around too. There is nothing wrong with it. If you look at any playground you can see this. Sure there are girls who will also be running around, but for the most part, boys need WAY more exercise than girls do. They NEED it. If they are forced to sit still, then their inability to do that may be seen as "wild hellion" behavior but that is grossly unfair to them and just shows how little you understand boys. If you forced your DD to run around the same amount to make things even, instead of forcing boys to tone it down, it would be cruel.

PP, do you think it's all nature (or God's design)? None of it has to do with society's expectations and the way we raise children? Because that's not what the science says.

Males and females genetically different. That's a fact. We have different hormones/hormone levels. That's also a fact. How in the world could this NOT have any effect on how we behave? Of course it does.

Um, the big difference in hormones and hormone levels happens in puberty, not at a year old or 2 years old or even 3 or 4 or 5 a

And even then, it doesn't have to have a huge impact on behavior outside of sexual impulses. I mean, in the workplace, if a man hits another person, it's not like, "Oh, he's all boy!" And it is in puberty, adolescence and adulthood when the hormonal differences are most pronounced. But that doesn't justify or excuse aggressive behavior.

I wasn't talking about hitting people or being aggressive. Where did that come from? It has nothing to do with this.

Because in my experience, that is the actual behavior that people try to spin as "rough and tumble."

I hate that phrase, too (mom of boys here), and it amazes me how many people in my generation still use it. Ninety nine times out of one hundred it is used either in a bragging way by the parent/grandparent of the child (read: thump chest (dad) or smile condescendingly (mom) while saying he's all boy!) or in a negative way by an observer (read: your kid is unruly, destructive, impulsive, etc.). This kind of comment is insulting to girls and boys.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The fact that you find those "boy traits" unflattering is why school is so hard on boys. Boys really need to do things like run around a lot more than girls do. They naturally swing sticks around too. There is nothing wrong with it. If you look at any playground you can see this. Sure there are girls who will also be running around, but for the most part, boys need WAY more exercise than girls do. They NEED it. If they are forced to sit still, then their inability to do that may be seen as "wild hellion" behavior but that is grossly unfair to them and just shows how little you understand boys. If you forced your DD to run around the same amount to make things even, instead of forcing boys to tone it down, it would be cruel.

PP, do you think it's all nature (or God's design)? None of it has to do with society's expectations and the way we raise children? Because that's not what the science says.

Males and females genetically different. That's a fact. We have different hormones/hormone levels. That's also a fact. How in the world could this NOT have any effect on how we behave? Of course it does.

Um, the big difference in hormones and hormone levels happens in puberty, not at a year old or 2 years old or even 3 or 4 or 5 a

And even then, it doesn't have to have a huge impact on behavior outside of sexual impulses. I mean, in the workplace, if a man hits another person, it's not like, "Oh, he's all boy!" And it is in puberty, adolescence and adulthood when the hormonal differences are most pronounced. But that doesn't justify or excuse aggressive behavior.

I wasn't talking about hitting people or being aggressive. Where did that come from? It has nothing to do with this.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:My son is in a school that bans media (waldorf). Now, the parents don't live up to it 100%, but these kids watch A LOT less than other kids. They do live in our culture and so aren't completely exempt from gender norms, but it is amazing what you see on the playground - all the kids playing together in very similar ways. Biological differences do not manifest themselves in the ways we think they do (trucks on the one hand and tutus on the other is a great example of our nonsensical gender norming). Much of this stuff is learned though media.

That said. I still think you should just smile and say, "sometimes."

There is a group of girls playing tackle football?

Are the boys playing tackle football during recess at your child's school? They sure aren't at mine (MCPS). But not because of gender norms. Because tackling is one of the long list of things the children are not allowed to do during recess.

No, of course my boys don't go to MCPS.. They go to an all boys school where they are allowed to be boys. Yes, they play tackle fottball.

Really, no one should be playing tackle football. This isn't a gender thing. The brain research that is emerging is very scary. One concussion can cause eventual, long-term damage, and repeated concussions are devastating (personality changes!). We can't bubble-wrap our kids, but we can keep them out of activities likely to cause concussions!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son is in a school that bans media (waldorf). Now, the parents don't live up to it 100%, but these kids watch A LOT less than other kids. They do live in our culture and so aren't completely exempt from gender norms, but it is amazing what you see on the playground - all the kids playing together in very similar ways. Biological differences do not manifest themselves in the ways we think they do (trucks on the one hand and tutus on the other is a great example of our nonsensical gender norming). Much of this stuff is learned though media.

That said. I still think you should just smile and say, "sometimes."

Is the end goal to have us all male and female dress alike and have similar social expectations and duties a la 1984? Will everyone feel better then?

Nobody is making them do or not do anything - but without media influence they just look like kids (not boys or girls), planting seedlings, holding worms, filling wagons with leaves to bring to the "dump", jumping off tree stumps, playing ring around the rosey, sweeping the grass. They all come in covered in mud. In the classroom, my son spends a lot of time playing with trucks on wooden roads, but so do the girls. He also cooks in the play kitchen, wears a baby doll, dresses up like a gnome (that part I don't get?), and loves the sparkly bracelet he got at a girl's birthday party. He has no concept of boy or girl toys.

He's going to public school next year, and I know he will then be around peers who watch a lot of TV, so this is the end of that. I am not looking forward to his shrinking his world to just what he thinks he is supposed to be interested in. He does love (love!) trains, so no big harm done, but why can't he like trains and glitter? Because he will be told so by his peers who have been told so by the media.

I have seen differences in my boy and girl children, but those mostly have to do with how wired the girl is for socialization - eye contact earlier, notices kids much earlier than him, upset when her brother is upset (he isn't bothered by her crying but she is by his). It has NOT manifested itself in stereotypical girly girlness or all boyness. Those are invented, imo. She did like dolls earlier than he ever did - but that is social - and he likes them a lot now (though he likes trains and elevators more).

Anonymous wrote:When an older relative of ours says that our son is "all boy," it is clearly code for "not gay." Offensive.

Well, and that's the other issue. In my experience, people who use the phrase and believe in it tend to be homophobic.

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Anonymous wrote:
Are you purposely being obtuse? (not pp) Being athletic is a stereotypically boyish thing. Denying that doesn't make it less true. It doesn't mean that boys who aren't athletic aren't boys, that girls who are athletic are boys or aren't girls, etc. GOOD LORD PEOPLE.

But people are not saying, "He's a stereotypical boy." They are saying, "He's all boy."

semantics. you are insufferable.

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I have boys and I will be the first to say my 2 are 'all boy'. They are athletic, rough and tumble, lots of physical energy, and hear selectively. These are the most universally accepted traits of males.

I'm clearly distinguishing them from some boys that have different demeanors that are not as universally characterized. More quiet, less physical energy, not into the outdoors. There is nothing wrong with these other boys, they just don't fit the stereotypical mold.

And that's just it, it's a widely accepted stereotype so when someone says "all boy" you know what they are talking about.

No need to get so defensive.

So are boys who are not athletic not "all boy"? Do you not see how obnoxious and offensive that is? Or all you be "all girl" by being passive aggressive?

Are you purposely being obtuse? (not pp) Being athletic is a stereotypically boyish thing. Denying that doesn't make it less true. It doesn't mean that boys who aren't athletic aren't boys, that girls who are athletic are boys or aren't girls, etc. GOOD LORD PEOPLE.

It's a self-fulfilling stereotype. THAT is the problem!!!!! By continuing to use stupid phrases like that and continuing to promote that stereotype, we create that reality. Let's drop the stereotype. There's nothing intrinsic about being a girl that makes her less interested in movement, in nature, in running around a playground.

+1. Exactly what I thought. Let's stop parroting these dumb sayings that perpetuate these outdated stereotypes. "Being athletic is a stereotypically boyish thing" is like saying "being quiet and obedient is a stereotypically girlish thing."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are the boys playing tackle football during recess at your child's school? They sure aren't at mine (MCPS). But not because of gender norms. Because tackling is one of the long list of things the children are not allowed to do during recess.

No, of course my boys don't go to MCPS.. They go to an all boys school where they are allowed to be boys. Yes, they play tackle fottball.

See, now I am confused. About half of the children in my child's class at my child's MCPS school are boys. They are boys before school, they are boys during school, they are boys after school, they know they are boys, everybody knows they are boys, there's no secret -- there they are, all day long, boys being boys. At what school are boys not allowed to be boys? Girls' schools?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son is in a school that bans media (waldorf). Now, the parents don't live up to it 100%, but these kids watch A LOT less than other kids. They do live in our culture and so aren't completely exempt from gender norms, but it is amazing what you see on the playground - all the kids playing together in very similar ways. Biological differences do not manifest themselves in the ways we think they do (trucks on the one hand and tutus on the other is a great example of our nonsensical gender norming). Much of this stuff is learned though media.

That said. I still think you should just smile and say, "sometimes."

There is a group of girls playing tackle football?

Are the boys playing tackle football during recess at your child's school? They sure aren't at mine (MCPS). But not because of gender norms. Because tackling is one of the long list of things the children are not allowed to do during recess.

No, of course my boys don't go to MCPS.. They go to an all boys school where they are allowed to be boys. Yes, they play tackle fottball.

Ha ha! My husband was telling me just the other night that in high school he used play soccer with a bunch of boys who went to an all boy school, and they were all, every last one of them, socially inept when girls were around. So good luck with that!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Are you purposely being obtuse? (not pp) Being athletic is a stereotypically boyish thing. Denying that doesn't make it less true. It doesn't mean that boys who aren't athletic aren't boys, that girls who are athletic are boys or aren't girls, etc. GOOD LORD PEOPLE.

But people are not saying, "He's a stereotypical boy." They are saying, "He's all boy."

+1

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I have boys and I will be the first to say my 2 are 'all boy'. They are athletic, rough and tumble, lots of physical energy, and hear selectively. These are the most universally accepted traits of males.

I'm clearly distinguishing them from some boys that have different demeanors that are not as universally characterized. More quiet, less physical energy, not into the outdoors. There is nothing wrong with these other boys, they just don't fit the stereotypical mold.

And that's just it, it's a widely accepted stereotype so when someone says "all boy" you know what they are talking about.

No need to get so defensive.

So are boys who are not athletic not "all boy"? Do you not see how obnoxious and offensive that is? Or all you be "all girl" by being passive aggressive?

Are you purposely being obtuse? (not pp) Being athletic is a stereotypically boyish thing. Denying that doesn't make it less true. It doesn't mean that boys who aren't athletic aren't boys, that girls who are athletic are boys or aren't girls, etc. GOOD LORD PEOPLE.

It's a self-fulfilling stereotype. THAT is the problem!!!!! By continuing to use stupid phrases like that and continuing to promote that stereotype, we create that reality. Let's drop the stereotype. There's nothing intrinsic about being a girl that makes her less interested in movement, in nature, in running around a playground.

hey OP is your son circumcised? if not, correct your neighbor and tell her you son's not 'all boys' at all.. best rebuff ever!

Anonymous wrote:
Are you purposely being obtuse? (not pp) Being athletic is a stereotypically boyish thing. Denying that doesn't make it less true. It doesn't mean that boys who aren't athletic aren't boys, that girls who are athletic are boys or aren't girls, etc. GOOD LORD PEOPLE.

But people are not saying, "He's a stereotypical boy." They are saying, "He's all boy."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son is in a school that bans media (waldorf). Now, the parents don't live up to it 100%, but these kids watch A LOT less than other kids. They do live in our culture and so aren't completely exempt from gender norms, but it is amazing what you see on the playground - all the kids playing together in very similar ways. Biological differences do not manifest themselves in the ways we think they do (trucks on the one hand and tutus on the other is a great example of our nonsensical gender norming). Much of this stuff is learned though media.

That said. I still think you should just smile and say, "sometimes."

There is a group of girls playing tackle football?

Are the boys playing tackle football during recess at your child's school? They sure aren't at mine (MCPS). But not because of gender norms. Because tackling is one of the long list of things the children are not allowed to do during recess.

No, of course my boys don't go to MCPS.. They go to an all boys school where they are allowed to be boys. Yes, they play tackle fottball.