Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would just ask White people to consider one point. I will say in advance that I am not trying to stir the pot - just being honest. I am upper middle class AA. My parents were college educated middle class. My grandparents were college educated middle class on one side and prominent farmers on the other. Both my parents and grandparents lived that majority of their lives in the segregated South.

Many AA's (and certainly our parents and grandparents) have experienced racism firsthand regardeless of SES. Whites used our color and the various labels as tools of discrminination to deny equal treatment and equal opportunity. AA's, as a method of survival, internalized these labels.

Sure, some people lean on racism as a crutch. But many of us, rich or poor, HAVE experienced racism at some level and from some places we could not expect. Whites now think we overreact and sometimes we do, but sometimes it IS about race.

My point is that you cannot use color and labels against a people for generations and then expect that people to disregard all of that because the world has changed somewhat.

I do agree with a PP that SES is going to be the next big -ism issue.

Likewise, not all white people have had privileged backgrounds, and some of them have in fact lost out on college or job opportunities because an affirmative action candidate who was objectively less qualified hot the spot. All of these things can be true. I have seen African-American friends and colleagues discriminated against in my view based on their ethnicity. I myself was explicitly told while working at a law firm that I was the top choice for partnership in our department, but I should realize the firm would probably make their second choice partner because he was African American. He is a good lawyer, and we are friends. As associated, though, we had shared our reviews with each other, and, objectively speaking, my reviews were consistently stronger. Luckily, I left the firm for a better position, but it was a frustrating situation. He felt terrible, and some partners at the firm still, completely inappropriately, blame him for my departure.

I am not discounting your experience. However, I will throw out this nugget -- the reviews may have been stronger, but how "objective"?
That is assuming an even playing field wherein people are judging others in the same exact way. I will take you at your word that you were a stronger candidate. But I have also seen situations where candidates were "objectively" the same, experience and skill set. Actions by the black man were considered "aggressive" but the virtually same behaviours/actions were considered "assertive" and "proactive" in the white guy. I am not saying that happens every time, but it is something to consider. Reviews are people's opinions, based on their own personal lens.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Holy, fuck. Can we simply stop these damn threads. Everyone wants to play the victim. I am a victim because I am a poor black. I am a victim because I am a rich black assumed to have been a poor black. I am a victim because I was a poor white assumed to have privileged I never had. I am victim because I am a rich white and have to pay for everyone else. I am a victim because I am an asian and everyone expects me to have superior intelligence....Where the hell does it stop. As a young child I understood that racism is wrong. However, all this victimization is just about to push me somewhere I don't want to go.


My problem with people like you is that you discount people by calling them victims. Progress can not be made when you have such a disdain for the struggles of others.

People like me? I am a fucking white person who grew up in abject poverty in an abusive home and I managed to claw my way out of the gutter. I don't claim victimhood. I am a survivor and yet every fucking day I have to hear about my goddamn privilege from people who don't have a damn clue about what it means to go to bed hungry or wear shoes with holes or have no winter coat. So yeah, I am getting pretty fed up with middle and upper class blacks claiming vicim hood. Get a fucking grip. Most people have struggles in life. I was never a racists until I started frequenting this board had had to hear about my privilege over and over and over again. People need to get a clue.

Baby, calm down. First of all someone being a "victim" of racism in no way invalidates your experience. You have had it hard -- we hear you. I am sorry you had the struggles that you did and I am glad you made it through. I think you do not have a real understanding of what white privilege is. It does not mean that all white people are rich and connected.
Here is a good definition for you:

White privilege refers to any advantage, opportunity, benefit, head start, or general protection from negative societal mistreatment, which persons deemed white will typically enjoy, but which others will generally not enjoy. These benefits can be material (such as greater opportunity in the labor market, or greater net worth, due to a history in which whites had the ability to accumulate wealth to a greater extent than persons of color), social (such as presumptions of competence, creditworthiness, law-abidingness, intelligence, etc.) or psychological (such as not having to worry about triggering negative stereotypes, rarely having to feel out of place, not having to worry about racial profiling, etc.).
Operationally, white privilege is simply the flipside of discrimination against people of color.
The fact that white privilege exists and that all whites have access to various aspects of it, does not, however, mean that all whites are wealthy, or that in competitions for jobs and other opportunities, whites will always win. The fact of general advantage doesn’t require unanimity of outcomes favoring whites. In certain situations, other factors will effect the distribution of opportunities: among these, socioeconomic status, sex, gender, sexual orientation, religious identity, age, or physical disability.
I hope this helps you to gain some greater understanding and a little peace that other folks talking about racism and privilege are not accusing you of DOING anything or are trying to take something from you or belittle your experience.
Peace My Sister

Anonymous wrote:African American simply means a black american of african descent. It has nothing to do with slavery or the legacy of slavery. If your parents emigrated from Nigeria in the 80s and you're black and born here, you're african american. (If you so choose).

You are 100% incorrect. Just because you don't agree with the definition, doesn't mean it isn't so.

Just to help you out:

http://archive.org/details/DrJohnnyDuncanInterviewafr-i-canAmer-i-can
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_did_the_term_African-American_originate

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would just ask White people to consider one point. I will say in advance that I am not trying to stir the pot - just being honest. I am upper middle class AA. My parents were college educated middle class. My grandparents were college educated middle class on one side and prominent farmers on the other. Both my parents and grandparents lived that majority of their lives in the segregated South.

Many AA's (and certainly our parents and grandparents) have experienced racism firsthand regardeless of SES. Whites used our color and the various labels as tools of discrminination to deny equal treatment and equal opportunity. AA's, as a method of survival, internalized these labels.

Sure, some people lean on racism as a crutch. But many of us, rich or poor, HAVE experienced racism at some level and from some places we could not expect. Whites now think we overreact and sometimes we do, but sometimes it IS about race.

My point is that you cannot use color and labels against a people for generations and then expect that people to disregard all of that because the world has changed somewhat.

I do agree with a PP that SES is going to be the next big -ism issue.

That's wonderful, but why does that mean an AA should take a college admission spot of a white kid that was more qualified--their backgrounds/upbringing being equal or better for the AA kid? The two have nothing to do with each other.

What you are talking about makes no sense from a college admissions standpoint.

What in the world are you talking about. Please someone tell me where all these colleges are that are admitting unqualified black folk!
Next week I'm going to stop saving for college and tell my kids they don't have to do their homework.
I hate these threads -- it brings out the real idiot asshats!!

Aww come on now....you know some White people are all for subjective selection until they see others benefit from subjectivity. Then they want to fall back on "all qualifications should be objective"

Agreed. It's amazing how some people focus on affirmative action without realizing:

-the discriminatory laws which caused affirmative action to exist
-the reality that white women are the main beneficiaries

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would just ask White people to consider one point. I will say in advance that I am not trying to stir the pot - just being honest. I am upper middle class AA. My parents were college educated middle class. My grandparents were college educated middle class on one side and prominent farmers on the other. Both my parents and grandparents lived that majority of their lives in the segregated South.

Many AA's (and certainly our parents and grandparents) have experienced racism firsthand regardeless of SES. Whites used our color and the various labels as tools of discrminination to deny equal treatment and equal opportunity. AA's, as a method of survival, internalized these labels.

Sure, some people lean on racism as a crutch. But many of us, rich or poor, HAVE experienced racism at some level and from some places we could not expect. Whites now think we overreact and sometimes we do, but sometimes it IS about race.

My point is that you cannot use color and labels against a people for generations and then expect that people to disregard all of that because the world has changed somewhat.

I do agree with a PP that SES is going to be the next big -ism issue.

That's wonderful, but why does that mean an AA should take a college admission spot of a white kid that was more qualified--their backgrounds/upbringing being equal or better for the AA kid? The two have nothing to do with each other.

What you are talking about makes no sense from a college admissions standpoint.

What in the world are you talking about. Please someone tell me where all these colleges are that are admitting unqualified black folk!
Next week I'm going to stop saving for college and tell my kids they don't have to do their homework.
I hate these threads -- it brings out the real idiot asshats!!

Aww come on now....you know some White people are all for subjective selection until they see others benefit from subjectivity. Then they want to fall back on "all qualifications should be objective"

Anonymous wrote:

Let me ask you this: What is the statement that you think I'm making? My goal was simply to define African-American. Nothing more, nothing less.

I have no idea, since writing and critical thinking don't appear to be your strong suit. Your orginal statement was incorrect, and your follow on was virtually incoherent. If that was indeed your intent, it would have been better to simply do this:

Af·ri·can–Amer·i·can noun \?a-fri-k?-n?-?mer-?-k?n, -?me-r?- also ?ä-\ : an American who has African and especially black African ancestors


I sincerely hope you are not African American.

So, you don't even know the statement that you disagree with? Do you know how idiotic you sound?

And your definition of African-American is STILL wrong. Amazing considering that the definition was provided in this very thread.

It's glaringly obvious that you know little about this issue, so your need to criticize when you are ignorant is amazing.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I actually think we need more of these threads. Apparently people won't say these things in real life for fear of being called racism. Openness is what will stop all of this for future generations.

How, exactly? My grandparents had about the regular level of racism for white people their age, and their gift to my parents and us was by not using racist words or terms or ever discussing any lingering racist beliefs they'd had (as they aged, they became more open minded). You can't learn what you aren't exposed to.

That has to be about the dumbest response I have read on DCUM in a long time.
You have to teach folks not to be racist. You have to have openess in order to gain understanding. You cannot NOT talk about racism as if it did not exist. It does exist and it does affect people. YOu cannot fix what you don't acknowledge. Denial is not a stragegy for learning -- it's a path to stupidity.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Holy, fuck. Can we simply stop these damn threads. Everyone wants to play the victim. I am a victim because I am a poor black. I am a victim because I am a rich black assumed to have been a poor black. I am a victim because I was a poor white assumed to have privileged I never had. I am victim because I am a rich white and have to pay for everyone else. I am a victim because I am an asian and everyone expects me to have superior intelligence....Where the hell does it stop. As a young child I understood that racism is wrong. However, all this victimization is just about to push me somewhere I don't want to go.

LOL!
I am AA and I hate these threads also. I hate them because it brings out the real idiots who don't want to have REAL AND MEANINGFUL discussions about race. It brings out the idiots who just want to throw around stereotypes. It also brings out the idiots who call themselves liberal because they "know that racism is wrong", but when the rubber hits the road, they don't want to have real conversations either.
They want to throw out the "victim" label. That's a lot more expedient than trying to understand that racism has real and long lasting effects that need to be acknowledged and talked about instead of brushed under the rug. They have little patience for trying to discern real racism from lack of personal responsibility. They have little or no understanding of any experience other than their own.
These are usually the einsteins who swear they don't see color. Honestly, they bug me more than the other folk, I'd rather you just call me a "n****".

ITA. Good post.

Anonymous wrote:Holy, fuck. Can we simply stop these damn threads. Everyone wants to play the victim. I am a victim because I am a poor black. I am a victim because I am a rich black assumed to have been a poor black. I am a victim because I was a poor white assumed to have privileged I never had. I am victim because I am a rich white and have to pay for everyone else. I am a victim because I am an asian and everyone expects me to have superior intelligence....Where the hell does it stop. As a young child I understood that racism is wrong. However, all this victimization is just about to push me somewhere I don't want to go.

LOL!
I am AA and I hate these threads also. I hate them because it brings out the real idiots who don't want to have REAL AND MEANINGFUL discussions about race. It brings out the idiots who just want to throw around stereotypes. It also brings out the idiots who call themselves liberal because they "know that racism is wrong", but when the rubber hits the road, they don't want to have real conversations either.
They want to throw out the "victim" label. That's a lot more expedient than trying to understand that racism has real and long lasting effects that need to be acknowledged and talked about instead of brushed under the rug. They have little patience for trying to discern real racism from lack of personal responsibility. They have little or no understanding of any experience other than their own.
These are usually the einsteins who swear they don't see color. Honestly, they bug me more than the other folk, I'd rather you just call me a "n****".

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would just ask White people to consider one point. I will say in advance that I am not trying to stir the pot - just being honest. I am upper middle class AA. My parents were college educated middle class. My grandparents were college educated middle class on one side and prominent farmers on the other. Both my parents and grandparents lived that majority of their lives in the segregated South.

Many AA's (and certainly our parents and grandparents) have experienced racism firsthand regardeless of SES. Whites used our color and the various labels as tools of discrminination to deny equal treatment and equal opportunity. AA's, as a method of survival, internalized these labels.

Sure, some people lean on racism as a crutch. But many of us, rich or poor, HAVE experienced racism at some level and from some places we could not expect. Whites now think we overreact and sometimes we do, but sometimes it IS about race.

My point is that you cannot use color and labels against a people for generations and then expect that people to disregard all of that because the world has changed somewhat.

I do agree with a PP that SES is going to be the next big -ism issue.

That's wonderful, but why does that mean an AA should take a college admission spot of a white kid that was more qualified--their backgrounds/upbringing being equal or better for the AA kid? The two have nothing to do with each other.

What you are talking about makes no sense from a college admissions standpoint.

What in the world are you talking about. Please someone tell me where all these colleges are that are admitting unqualified black folk!
Next week I'm going to stop saving for college and tell my kids they don't have to do their homework.
I hate these threads -- it brings out the real idiot asshats!!

I wonder what the OP wanted to accomplish by her post.

African American simply means a black american of african descent. It has nothing to do with slavery or the legacy of slavery. If your parents emigrated from Nigeria in the 80s and you're black and born here, you're african american. (If you so choose).

^^^ 12:58 again. If you want to argue that legacy is affirmative action for whites, I'd be right there with you.

Let me ask you this: What is the statement that you think I'm making? My goal was simply to define African-American. Nothing more, nothing less.

I have no idea, since writing and critical thinking don't appear to be your strong suit. Your orginal statement was incorrect, and your follow on was virtually incoherent. If that was indeed your intent, it would have been better to simply do this:

Af·ri·can–Amer·i·can noun \?a-fri-k?-n?-?mer-?-k?n, -?me-r?- also ?ä-\ : an American who has African and especially black African ancestors


I sincerely hope you are not African American.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hear ya!! Try telling that to a college admissions board.

It was very frustrating when the black kids (with same privileges and upbringing) were able to get into colleges with only a 3.0 grade pt average and average SATs while those of us with 4.0+ did not.

Not. ALL the white guys on the volleyball team at a mjor Ivy I know had BAD scores.

Let's not go off on this tangent. If Bad SAT=2000 or 2100, that's still way above average. ALL the athletic recruits at the Ivy DC entered this year, in several different sports, come from TJ, the Blair magnet or a Big 3. I know the SATs for two of them, and both are NMSSFs.

OK, back to whatever racist ugliness and reflexive anti-affirmative action screeds were already in progress here.