Anonymous wrote:Nope.

That comment doesn't say anything about schools being the ONLY ones responsible, it does not support your claim.

That quote is about Rhee wanting to change the culture of low expectations and perpetual excuse-making in DCPS schools.

And the Henderson comment is completely non-relevant.

yep - that comment is about Rhee placing all the responsibility on teachers to raise scores and completely discounts other environmental issues. And the comment about Henderson indicates she feels the same as Rhee -- she made it shortly after Rhee left to reassure people that there would be no changes in the reform movement after Rhee left.


Here’s a quote from before it was learned that there had been no miracle in Rhee’s Baltimore classroom. You don’t hear much about this anymore.

“Everyone sort of spews the rhetoric about ‘all kids can learn’ and that sort of thing, but I actually experienced that. I saw these kids in my classroom who were at the absolute rock bottom in terms of achievement. And people said, “You can’t do this—their home lives are too bad.” This and that. They had all sorts of excuses for the kids. And over a two year period, I saw them grow exponentially. So for me, it’s not just this nice idea that kids can learn, it was my actually experiencing it and seeing it first-hand. That’s what drives my work every single day.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/11/crusader-of-the-classrooms/307080/

Here’s a quote in which Rhee openly acknowledges that great teachers is her only solution:
“And the only way we’re going to get out of this situation [low achievement] is if we have great teachers. That is the only solution that we have, and so that’s why we’re really focused on it.”
http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Connecting_With_The_Chancellor___2_13_09_Washington_DC.html


Here’s Kaya, after she took over DCPS, expressing similar views:
“I’m not discounting the effects of poverty or kids coming to school hungry, but we can’t use that as an excuse for not reaching our kids. At the end of the day, you know and I know, great teachers who took kids from improbable circumstances and catapulted them to great lives and we have to ensure that this is the norm and not the exception.” http://mountvernontoday.com/education/208-new-dc-school-chief-inspired-by-mount-vernon-education.html

“And so for the eight hours a day that we have them, we can't make excuses for the fact that they come from poverty. In fact, we have to set incredibly high expectations. And what I know about children is they rise to the expectations that you set for them.” http://thekojonnamdishow.org/shows/2010-12-20/dc-schools-interim-chancellor-kaya-henderson/transcript


So, Kaya acknowledges that poverty affects kids but still says teachers should be able to overcome poverty. She claims to know from experience that this can happen and that it should be “the norm.”

Well, it’s not the norm and attempts in DCPS to make it the norm have failed.

I just heard an interview with Ginnie Cooper (Head of DC Libraries) on Kojo. I think the library is definitely one of the pillars needed to help move DC schools forward. I was happy to hear that DC is putting money into their libraries (as opposed to Fairfax which just keeps on cutting). Adult literacy is very important too.

Nope.

That comment doesn't say anything about schools being the ONLY ones responsible, it does not support your claim.

That quote is about Rhee wanting to change the culture of low expectations and perpetual excuse-making in DCPS schools.

And the Henderson comment is completely non-relevant.

Anonymous wrote:"The DC reformers absolutely thought that schools alone could and should make all the difference."

"the focus on teachers as the only important factor in kids' education"

Citations, please.

I don't recall anyone ever saying that the schools were the ONLY change needed. I call BS on that.

“As a teacher in this system, you have to be willing to take personal responsibility for ensuring your children are successful despite obstacles…You can’t say, ‘My students didn’t get any breakfast today,’ or ‘No one put them to bed last night,’ or ‘Their electricity got cut off in the house, so they couldn’t do their homework.”
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200811/michelle-rhee

ALso will look for a quote from Henderson saying she's just like rhee, except she's a "big black girl" and not a "petite asian"

good thoughts -- not original, but good. Now to find a way to get them heard and acted on.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, you're skipping a step. They need to hear all that -- and absorb it -- from their parents.

They aren't going to hear it from their parents because their parents didn't grow up hearing it. It has to come from the community.

Ok, but what does that mean? Is it enough to hear it from teachers? Apparently not. Six years of school-only based reform has only served to widen the achievement gap.

Is there some way the "community" could help parents instill the message to their children?

Yes, by denouncing a lot of the bad behavior and negative values and emphasizing more positive pursuits. We live in a society where it's considered "acting white" to try and achieve success, where it's instead all about the fronting and the shortcuts that don't work, instead of the legitimate - gaming the system, the hustle, the scam, the "I'm gonna be a pro basketball player" or "I'm gonna be a rapper" where your chances of success are slimmer than your chances of getting hit by lightning. And worse yet, layer upon that this crap "urban culture" layer where things like misogyny, violence, drugs and thug life are not just tolerated, they are in fact glorified.

"The DC reformers absolutely thought that schools alone could and should make all the difference."

"the focus on teachers as the only important factor in kids' education"

Citations, please.

I don't recall anyone ever saying that the schools were the ONLY change needed. I call BS on that.

Anonymous wrote:That's not "contrary to what reformers thought" - no, schools aren't the only thing out there and kids only spend a portion of their time in schools. But your "solution" seems to be to just give schools a pass and return to the status quo, which obviously wasn't working (the stagnation and widening achievement gap isn't DUE TO reforms, there's no causal relationship there). Cheating was due to unscrupulous teachers and administrators, not due to reforms - nobody at the top ordered anyone to cheat, and frankly there were many teachers and administrators who should have been fired because they were ineffective.

Certainly schools could and should continue to have a role in letting kids know how important a proper education is, and letting them know about all of the free educational resources that exist.

The cultural issues are so deep that they essentially amount to brainwashing - kids are practically being taught by their peers and their immediate community to reject education and good behavior in a misguided belief that it's definitional to urban AA culture - something that would bring a tear to the eye of Martin Luther King Jr. - I think we've all heard the terms "acting ghetto" and "acting white". It's a disgrace that the phenomenon even exists that people readily say such things. That needs to end.

The DC reformers absolutely thought that schools alone could and should make all the difference. That's what has been trumpeted here and across the country. That's what "no excuses" means -- no excuses for teachers not being able to single-handedly raise kids' academic achievement scores, despite their lives out of school.

Of course school should have a role in teaching the importance of education -- that has always been the case.

As for some teachers needing to be fired -- maybe so -- but what's the result of so many firings since "reform" -- not improved scores, that's for sure -- so maybe crappy teachers wasn't the main problem. IS DCPS willing to consider that? Doesn't look like it, as they have kept all their reforms about teacher evaluation in place and the high turnover of teachers continues with no improvement in academics.

It's not a matter of "giving schools a pass" it's realizing that the focus on teachers as the only important factor in kids' education has been terribly misguided. Many people knew that from the start, because academic research indicated then the SES was the major factor in academic success.

Now thanks to using DC kids and their teachers a guinea pigs, we've proven yet again. Both the old status quo and the current status quo have done nothing to help the kids who need help the most. It has cot some competent teachers their jobs and has lined the pockets of the new DCPS administration, but it has not helped kids.

I agree that the anti-academic culture you cite has to end. I think it will take a long, concerted effort, which sadly has been delayed by the last 6 years of phony reform which is the new status quo.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, you're skipping a step. They need to hear all that -- and absorb it -- from their parents.

They aren't going to hear it from their parents because their parents didn't grow up hearing it. It has to come from the community.

Ok, but what does that mean? Is it enough to hear it from teachers? Apparently not. Six years of school-only based reform has only served to widen the achievement gap.

Is there some way the "community" could help parents instill the message to their children?

That's not "contrary to what reformers thought" - no, schools aren't the only thing out there and kids only spend a portion of their time in schools. But your "solution" seems to be to just give schools a pass and return to the status quo, which obviously wasn't working (the stagnation and widening achievement gap isn't DUE TO reforms, there's no causal relationship there). Cheating was due to unscrupulous teachers and administrators, not due to reforms - nobody at the top ordered anyone to cheat, and frankly there were many teachers and administrators who should have been fired because they were ineffective.

Certainly schools could and should continue to have a role in letting kids know how important a proper education is, and letting them know about all of the free educational resources that exist.

The cultural issues are so deep that they essentially amount to brainwashing - kids are practically being taught by their peers and their immediate community to reject education and good behavior in a misguided belief that it's definitional to urban AA culture - something that would bring a tear to the eye of Martin Luther King Jr. - I think we've all heard the terms "acting ghetto" and "acting white". It's a disgrace that the phenomenon even exists that people readily say such things. That needs to end.

Anonymous wrote:
Don't throw this "no concept" stuff around, some of us also grew up dirt poor but aren't buying the lame excuses being thrown around here. So again, I ask, what is throwing more money at it going to accomplish? As was pointed out, there's already tons of free educational support out there, not to mention that DC has world class Smithsonian museums that are free, and yet the people who could stand to benefit the most don't even take advantage of what's there. So, do you seriously think that more money going into providing yet more free stuff will somehow change anything? It won't. Throwing money around isn't going to change anything, the change that has to happen is cultural.

Please note the word used was "deprived" not "poor" - and granted they often go together, but not always, and sometimes deprived/poor kids can make it without much parental support, but not most of the time.

I agree, a cultural change is needed, and contrary to what the reformers thought, the change can't be only in the schools, and the change can't be browbeating the teachers and principals to get the scores up or else. We have data now to back that up - stagnation among the deprived, a widening achievement gap and cheating and a huge turnover in teachers and principals.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There's lots of FREE stuff out there which can help provide all kinds of academic support for kids, for example my kid got a ton out of Khan Academy, that's available for free on YouTube via computers at the library.

This idea about middle class and wealthy having access to some kind of magical, special supercharged academic support outside school never was never quite valid in the first place, and given all of the excellent FREE stuff that's out there, the argument about it all being due to economic disparity outside of the classroom is even less valid.

Just because it is out there doesn't mean the child has access to it. Parents play an incredible role in what and how a child is exposed to new and different things. Having parents that can read and do read to you in early childhood, having parents who sign you up and take you to all the free stuff that is out there, having parents who know how to navigate the system, having parents that take you to the library and the museums and the zoo, having parents that make sure you eat good healthy nutritious meals every day, having parents are the assets of the middle class and upper class child- assets that most poor children do not receive.

+1 I hope this is getting through to those who are very bright but who have no concept of what it's like to live in a very deprived environment.

Don't throw this "no concept" stuff around, some of us also grew up dirt poor but aren't buying the lame excuses being thrown around here. So again, I ask, what is throwing more money at it going to accomplish? As was pointed out, there's already tons of free educational support out there, not to mention that DC has world class Smithsonian museums that are free, and yet the people who could stand to benefit the most don't even take advantage of what's there. So, do you seriously think that more money going into providing yet more free stuff will somehow change anything? It won't. Throwing money around isn't going to change anything, the change that has to happen is cultural.

Anonymous wrote:No, you're skipping a step. They need to hear all that -- and absorb it -- from their parents.

They aren't going to hear it from their parents because their parents didn't grow up hearing it. It has to come from the community.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There's lots of FREE stuff out there which can help provide all kinds of academic support for kids, for example my kid got a ton out of Khan Academy, that's available for free on YouTube via computers at the library.

This idea about middle class and wealthy having access to some kind of magical, special supercharged academic support outside school never was never quite valid in the first place, and given all of the excellent FREE stuff that's out there, the argument about it all being due to economic disparity outside of the classroom is even less valid.

Just because it is out there doesn't mean the child has access to it. Parents play an incredible role in what and how a child is exposed to new and different things. Having parents that can read and do read to you in early childhood, having parents who sign you up and take you to all the free stuff that is out there, having parents who know how to navigate the system, having parents that take you to the library and the museums and the zoo, having parents that make sure you eat good healthy nutritious meals every day, having parents are the assets of the middle class and upper class child- assets that most poor children do not receive.

+1 I hope this is getting through to those who are very bright but who have no concept of what it's like to live in a very deprived environment.

Yet another +1. The kid at Georgetown who had the basic grammar problem no doubt has parents who speak that way. Yes, there is free stuff out there to help kids. Yes, you shouldn't assume poor kids can't make it. Yes, good teachers can make a difference. But it's not fair to the kids to assume that we all start on a level playing field and it's just a matter if working harder than anyone else. People who grow up in educated families have enormous advantages just by being able to soak up their parents' culture without even having to think about it.

BTW, I'm the person who posted about the kid not prepared for college by her charter school. I haven't been able to get staff to return my emails or calls. Just talked to her parents and they can't get answers either. Now I know none of you middle and upper income well-educated DCUM folks would put up with that. My students' parents have a hard time confronting the school about it. They complain to me about it but I suspect they're too intimidated to make a big stink about it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There's lots of FREE stuff out there which can help provide all kinds of academic support for kids, for example my kid got a ton out of Khan Academy, that's available for free on YouTube via computers at the library.

This idea about middle class and wealthy having access to some kind of magical, special supercharged academic support outside school never was never quite valid in the first place, and given all of the excellent FREE stuff that's out there, the argument about it all being due to economic disparity outside of the classroom is even less valid.

Just because it is out there doesn't mean the child has access to it. Parents play an incredible role in what and how a child is exposed to new and different things. Having parents that can read and do read to you in early childhood, having parents who sign you up and take you to all the free stuff that is out there, having parents who know how to navigate the system, having parents that take you to the library and the museums and the zoo, having parents that make sure you eat good healthy nutritious meals every day, having parents are the assets of the middle class and upper class child- assets that most poor children do not receive.

+1 I hope this is getting through to those who are very bright but who have no concept of what it's like to live in a very deprived environment.