Anonymous wrote:I think we agree. Few people move out only because of schools although it is a convenient reason to give. My point is that shipping kids out of the neighborhood for charters or out of the public system for school is far from the ideal especially when the numbers and conditions for some great middle and high school options in the neighborhood are gathering. But maybe I am too idealistic. In the meantime, yes, there are lots of good enough options in the city.

I've posted here before, but here is a new thing to ponder: Haven't they always? DC has always had some form of school choice (clusters, magnets etc.). Could it be that the walkable, bikable, buy local, eat local, shop local, sell your car but still live richly kind of culture (combined with higher travel costs, time and money) has brought stronger sense of "I want a great school right at my doorstep"?
I'm not objecting. In fact, I clearly see the benefits of it all, for myself and society as a whole. Maybe we just can't have the cake and eat it too, not yet, not all the time. So you either let it go or you make it work. We do the latter.

Yup. Never seen such hypocrisy in my life. These are some truly conflicted people.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The history of the Hill is middle class kids going to Deal if they stayed in DCPS.

That's a newer trend. I'd say about when Rhee came in and put Kim in place there. You're talking five years max. Hardy maybe, yes, not Deal.

This is just not true. Students on the Hill have been trekking to Deal for a long time. Before the Cluster was formed parents avoided Hine, but some considered Jefferson in the late 80s and 90s. The Cluster was formed to entice middle class parents to stick around, and Jefferson was essentially a selective admission program with a tough as nails principal.

I think it is funny how the generation of parents who were around during the beginning of the cluster won't admit that the reason for the cluster was to entice middle class families and make them feel more comfortable through middle school yet when anyone suggests something similar these days they squawk and cluck elitism and racism.

And they sue or disparage charter schools for doing the same.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The history of the Hill is middle class kids going to Deal if they stayed in DCPS.

That's a newer trend. I'd say about when Rhee came in and put Kim in place there. You're talking five years max. Hardy maybe, yes, not Deal.

This is just not true. Students on the Hill have been trekking to Deal for a long time. Before the Cluster was formed parents avoided Hine, but some considered Jefferson in the late 80s and 90s. The Cluster was formed to entice middle class parents to stick around, and Jefferson was essentially a selective admission program with a tough as nails principal.

I think it is funny how the generation of parents who were around during the beginning of the cluster won't admit that the reason for the cluster was to entice middle class families and make them feel more comfortable through middle school yet when anyone suggests something similar these days they squawk and cluck elitism and racism.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^^ I think this is simplistic but would love to hear your conspiracy theory. These families you talk about were much fewer in number and there houses were far cheaper. So the possibility of private schools through high school was there. Also, Stuart Hobson did not have a feed from Ludlow Taylor or from JO Wilson . It was essentially a magnet school drawing in motivated families and a few graduates from Watkins. Things have changed--especially with charter schools drawing away many motivated and academically oriented students.

You are talking about an era when the only public elementary school that served middle class kids from the immediate neighborhood was Watkins. Now there are large numbers of these families at Brent, Tyler, Maury and at preschool at Ludlow and JO Wilson.

With large mortgages and large families and simultaneously valuing public education and strong neighborhoods, these families rightfully long for a public middle school and even high school. However--middle school brings issues that are not in play at the elementary level and these need to be addressed by the city and by DCPS before this can work.

In the meantime, yes, families will use the charters and privates but that is far from ideal.

My point exactly. Many, many more acceptable choices. A possibly more demanding clientele with a little less fungible cash to put towards privates, if even that. Schools are not primarily the reason they move out - if they do -, is where my conclusion possibly differs from yours.

I think we agree. Few people moves out only because of schools although it is a convenient reason to give. My point is that shipping kids out of the neighborhood for charters or out of the public system for school is far from the ideal especially when the numbers and conditions for some great middle and high school options in the neighborhood are gathering. But maybe I am too idealistic. In the meantime, yes, there are lots of good enough options in the city.

^^ very true about Jefferson. It was extreme tracking with a high caliber program recruiting citywide, sealed off from the rest of the school and feeding its graduates to Wilson. This is why Jefferson was called highly successful in the past.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The history of the Hill is middle class kids going to Deal if they stayed in DCPS.

That's a newer trend. I'd say about when Rhee came in and put Kim in place there. You're talking five years max. Hardy maybe, yes, not Deal.

This is just not true. Students on the Hill have been trekking to Deal for a long time. Before the Cluster was formed parents avoided Hine, but some considered Jefferson in the late 80s and 90s. The Cluster was formed to entice middle class parents to stick around, and Jefferson was essentially a selective admission program with a tough as nails principal.

Anonymous wrote:^^^ I think this is simplistic but would love to hear your conspiracy theory. These families you talk about were much fewer in number and there houses were far cheaper. So the possibility of private schools through high school was there. Also, Stuart Hobson did not have a feed from Ludlow Taylor or from JO Wilson . It was essentially a magnet school drawing in motivated families and a few graduates from Watkins. Things have changed--especially with charter schools drawing away many motivated and academically oriented students.

You are talking about an era when the only public elementary school that served middle class kids from the immediate neighborhood was Watkins. Now there are large numbers of these families at Brent, Tyler, Maury and at preschool at Ludlow and JO Wilson.

With large mortgages and large families and simultaneously valuing public education and strong neighborhoods, these families rightfully long for a public middle school and even high school. However--middle school brings issues that are not in play at the elementary level and these need to be addressed by the city and by DCPS before this can work.

In the meantime, yes, families will use the charters and privates but that is far from ideal.

My point exactly. Many, many more acceptable choices. A possibly more demanding clientele with a little less fungible cash to put towards privates, if even that. Schools are not primarily the reason they move out - if they do -, is where my conclusion possibly differs from yours.

And Deal is no longer an option unless you attend an elementary feeder. And even that is shaky into the future

Anonymous wrote:The history of the Hill is middle class kids going to Deal if they stayed in DCPS.

That's a newer trend. I'd say about when Rhee came in and put Kim in place there. You're talking five years max. Hardy maybe, yes, not Deal.

^^^ I think this is simplistic but would love to hear your conspiracy theory. These families you talk about were much fewer in number and there houses were far cheaper. So the possibility of private schools through high school was there. Also, Stuart Hobson did not have a feed from Ludlow Taylor or from JO Wilson . It was essentially a magnet school drawing in motivated families and a few graduates from Watkins. Things have changed--especially with charter schools drawing away many motivated and academically oriented students.

You are talking about an era when the only public elementary school that served middle class kids from the immediate neighborhood was Watkins. Now there are large numbers of these families at Brent, Tyler, Maury and at preschool at Ludlow and JO Wilson.

With large mortgages and large families and simultaneously valuing public education and strong neighborhoods, these families rightfully long for a public middle school and even high school. However--middle school brings issues that are not in play at the elementary level and these need to be addressed by the city and by DCPS before this can work.

In the meantime, yes, families will use the charters and privates but that is far from ideal.

Anonymous wrote:I too think the MS issue is greatly overplayed (I have some conspiracy theory about that but let's not go there). For decades, Capitol Hill parents have made a living in Capitol Hill, a great many - lawyers, professors, public servants, business owners - quietly but successfully investing in Stuart-Hobson or sending their kids to St. Peters or St. Anselms. As numbers have increased so have choices, public and private. In fact, today's elementary school parents probably have more and better choices for ES and MS than those barely a decade ago.
No, those who're drawn away are so because they're looking for bigger doorways, wider lawns, double garages, newer detached homes, and possibly, quite possibly, more of their kind. Some will tell you, and probably make themselves believe, that's it's the schools. Other reasons just doesn't ring right in this city. But many are honest if you ask them sincerely.

The history of the Hill is middle class kids going to Deal if they stayed in DCPS.

I too think the MS issue is greatly overplayed (I have some conspiracy theory about that but let's not go there). For decades, Capitol Hill parents have made a living in Capitol Hill, a great many - lawyers, professors, public servants, business owners - quietly but successfully investing in Stuart-Hobson or sending their kids to St. Peters or St. Anselms. As numbers have increased so have choices, public and private. In fact, today's elementary school parents probably have more and better choices for ES and MS than those barely a decade ago.
No, those who're drawn away are so because they're looking for bigger doorways, wider lawns, double garages, newer detached homes, and possibly, quite possibly, more of their kind. Some will tell you, and probably make themselves believe, that's it's the schools. Other reasons just doesn't ring right in this city. But many are honest if you ask them sincerely.

^I agree for the most part, but don't think the CH MS feeder situation is as make or break as you suggest, or that Brent and Maury's lower grades are a step down from JKLM. JKLM schools have only had a popular MS feed for a few years now, and they suffer from debilitating crowding, particularly Lafayette, because DCPS hasn't been willing to add permanent classroom space. Lafayette and Murch have had classroom trailers (some without bathrooms) for a decade, and classrooms at the former are tucked behind makeshift partitions - the same can't be said of Maury or Brent. Brent is making increasing use of the nearby Smithsonians, with many more field trips under Principal Young than previous heads. Plenty of well-heeled JKLM families still scatter after ES, to privates.

CH essentially has public middle schools - Washington Latin, BASIS and, soon, DCI. No family has been shut out of both Latin and BASIS yet. BASIS offers honors classes outside math, while Deal does not.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am familiar with Brent and JKLMM schools. I don't think it is laughable to consider them similar. There are differences, mostly related to middle schools, but they both are able to produce well prepared kids. Kids from Brent go on to St Anselm's, Latin, BASIS, Cap Hill Day School and others and they make the honor roll from day one. There are differences in the culture and climate and community surrounding these schools, and some may like one over the other. I'd be interested in hearing the PP's rationale for using such strong language to describe why Brent is not comparable to JKLMM.

Some JKLM types are having trouble dealing with the fact that Brent's demographics and academics will soon be comparable to theirs, right downtown, in the hip zone, despite the problem MS feeder. Maury will struggle a bit to compare, even in 5 years, because its school district has bigger pockets of poverty. The irony is that not only is Brent poised to become a branch of JKLM EotP, it's veering toward WotP crowding.

Was at Brent and now WoTP. Brent has a long way to go but I think it is definitely on its way. The MS feeder is a huge problem and will continue to take away from the school community. The dedicated parents (we were some) begin to focus elsewhere. It really hurts the community of the school which is where the Deal feeders are completely different. The kids know that their friends are mostly going to be with them in MS. It just brings a new dynamic to how the kids build their own community. I think academically Brent is on the right track and their facilities are good (though many Brent parents complain). One other difference is the teachers. Brent is just now getting a good core staff. It was really hit or miss there a few years back. Mostly miss but as the leadership has improved so has the staff. I think the aftercare is still a challenge but since we weren't there this last year don't know how much it has improved.

Brent is definitely in its way and maybe Maury next. They will be good, I bet they will be great if the middle school feeder issue is resolved. I can tell you that I never have conversations about Brent or really any other school with parents at our WoTP schoo. We are all trying to get through the day like the Brent parents. The only time other schools come up is usually regarding sports and tends to revolve around beating Lafayette. That is all.