Anonymous wrote:OMG I love the bread comment.

I make $45,000 and my partner makes $70,000. Combined I think were middle class?
We live in a nice neighborhood in Moco, although house was built in 1983 and is not shiny, new and perfect.
Neither one of us went to college.
The only dept we have is the mortgage and one car. ( other car is paid for)
We just spend a ridiculous amount of money on domestic adoption, we used money we had saved, no new dept.
I get my daughters clothes from the thrift store because I like name brands but refuse to pay the price. I can afford to, I just dont want to. I cant justify it in my head.
Because I save money on stuff like that, we can go away on mini vacations when we feel like it, and go out to eat about twice a week.

oh yeah, and we have a cleaning person every 2 weeks. We have a baby, 2 dogs and both work 40 hours per week. She is totally worth it in our eyes.

You made partner and only make that much? What kind of law firm did you join?

OP, class is how you treat others? Are you a busy body or meddler? Then you are lowest class. If you mind and enjoy your own - and show it not just once a day, but in everything you do (participating with your kids, for example) - then you are much higher class.

Those who ignore their kids and meddle in others where they have no business - no thank you.

Anonymous wrote:

I know many families who make $50k, live in nicer homes (outside the DC metro area), take real vacations,... I think the issue is that too many people are rich in income yet lead poorer quality of life.

Yes, but are they putting any money aside? My BIL and his baby momma would go on road trips every weekend and got to go on vacations (thanks to my IL's taking them) on $35K/year with 2 kids. But in the meantime, they were (and still are) living at my ILs house, in debt up to their eyeballs with no savings or retirement money.

I do realize housing is cheaper in other parts of the country, but do you think families of 4 with HHI of $50K are actually being responsible with their money in terms of their futures? Not that I blame them - shit is expensive these days and we lose our safety net bit by bit every day. We're all forced to cover more and more out of pocket. We have a HHI of close to $140K, yet we don't go on many vacations because we are having to put so much of our income into retirement and college funds with very little employer help. Health costs are insane - we have insurance, but it doesn't cover as much as it used to yet we pay more for it and have more out of pocket expenses that used to be paid.

Again, $50K isn't much, even in low COL areas, when you consider what everything you need for life costs these days.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The failure of people who make 200k, 500k, etc to realize they are rich, is exactly the reason why we have such income disparity in the United States. Holy shit. Holy cognitive dissonance.

I disagree. The only reason why I make $200k (now, I started at 85k 11 years ago) is because I have two masters degrees and to do that I had to take out student loans of more than $100k. I fully recognize it is a choice to take out loans to get the degrees, but that choice came at a very high financial cost that still affects my disposable income. Gross income alone should not determine what class I am in if I could not have obtained that salary without my student loans.

OK, fine. How much do you pay in student loans a year? Subtract that from 200K and see if you aren't still up in the range that most Americans would call rich.

Your proposed adjustment would only work if the starting salary on graduation was $200k. Then it would be a dollar for dollar adjustment. You also disregard interest rate on the loan, which, depending on the term could be about $50k on a $100k loan repaid over 10 years or over $100k if refinanced over 30.

And, again, the OP didn't indicate if s/he was asking about the DC area or middle class on a national basis.

And you'd have to gross up the loan amount because you pay for the loan with net income not gross. Or, conversely, you would deduct the loan amount from the net (after tax) income.

no, deduct what you actually pay per year on the loan from your yearly salary. There, easy peasy. You still have a higher income than most people in the area.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:above 100k below 450k

Absolutely not. In the DC area, I'd say middle class would be maybe 40-50K

WRONG. Look up the section 8 income limits for Fairfax:

For a family of 4 (which is probably the demographic on this site):

Extremely low income: 32K and under
Very Low Income: 53K max
Low Income: 70K max

You have not even begun to graze the middle with your estimate of "middle".

Really? Please show a source. I need to move to Fairfax! Free housing for the middle class!!!!!!!!!!!

You can google, no? Section 8 is NOT for the middle class, it is for Low income people. If you are low income, getting a section 8 rental is very hard.

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/rha/rentalhousingprograms/hcv.htm

It is extremely easy to figure out what is middle class for your area. Census can give you the median income for your county. Median is the dead middle.

Making a statement that middle class Americans are at 50K/yr is just stupid. That is like saying the average home price is 250K....yea when you factor in Detroit. When saying "middle Class" you cannot compare everyone in the 3rd largest country in the world, spanning nearly 4 million square miles, you have to break it down by region.

COL (mainly housing and childcare) is much different in Tulsa, OK vs. Falls Church, VA.

My point was that if a family of 4 with an HHI of $70k can get section 8 housing in fairfax, then that's a pretty good deal! I work in d.c., live in pg. I know a family of four, HHI of *less* than $70k (d.c. job but lives in MD), and here they thought they were solidly middle class, struggling with their mortgage. They could just move to fairfax and qualify for section 8!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The failure of people who make 200k, 500k, etc to realize they are rich, is exactly the reason why we have such income disparity in the United States. Holy shit. Holy cognitive dissonance.

I disagree. The only reason why I make $200k (now, I started at 85k 11 years ago) is because I have two masters degrees and to do that I had to take out student loans of more than $100k. I fully recognize it is a choice to take out loans to get the degrees, but that choice came at a very high financial cost that still affects my disposable income. Gross income alone should not determine what class I am in if I could not have obtained that salary without my student loans.

OK, fine. How much do you pay in student loans a year? Subtract that from 200K and see if you aren't still up in the range that most Americans would call rich.

Your proposed adjustment would only work if the starting salary on graduation was $200k. Then it would be a dollar for dollar adjustment. You also disregard interest rate on the loan, which, depending on the term could be about $50k on a $100k loan repaid over 10 years or over $100k if refinanced over 30.

And, again, the OP didn't indicate if s/he was asking about the DC area or middle class on a national basis.

And you'd have to gross up the loan amount because you pay for the loan with net income not gross. Or, conversely, you would deduct the loan amount from the net (after tax) income.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The failure of people who make 200k, 500k, etc to realize they are rich, is exactly the reason why we have such income disparity in the United States. Holy shit. Holy cognitive dissonance.

I disagree. The only reason why I make $200k (now, I started at 85k 11 years ago) is because I have two masters degrees and to do that I had to take out student loans of more than $100k. I fully recognize it is a choice to take out loans to get the degrees, but that choice came at a very high financial cost that still affects my disposable income. Gross income alone should not determine what class I am in if I could not have obtained that salary without my student loans.

OK, fine. How much do you pay in student loans a year? Subtract that from 200K and see if you aren't still up in the range that most Americans would call rich.

Your proposed adjustment would only work if the starting salary on graduation was $200k. Then it would be a dollar for dollar adjustment. You also disregard interest rate on the loan, which, depending on the term could be about $50k on a $100k loan repaid over 10 years or over $100k if refinanced over 30.

And, again, the OP didn't indicate if s/he was asking about the DC area or middle class on a national basis.

Anonymous wrote:above 100k below 450k

income or net worth?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:above 100k below 450k

Absolutely not. In the DC area, I'd say middle class would be maybe 40-50K

WRONG. Look up the section 8 income limits for Fairfax:

For a family of 4 (which is probably the demographic on this site):

Extremely low income: 32K and under
Very Low Income: 53K max
Low Income: 70K max

You have not even begun to graze the middle with your estimate of "middle".

Really? Please show a source. I need to move to Fairfax! Free housing for the middle class!!!!!!!!!!!

You can google, no? Section 8 is NOT for the middle class, it is for Low income people. If you are low income, getting a section 8 rental is very hard.

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/rha/rentalhousingprograms/hcv.htm

It is extremely easy to figure out what is middle class for your area. Census can give you the median income for your county. Median is the dead middle.

Making a statement that middle class Americans are at 50K/yr is just stupid. That is like saying the average home price is 250K....yea when you factor in Detroit. When saying "middle Class" you cannot compare everyone in the 3rd largest country in the world, spanning nearly 4 million square miles, you have to break it down by region.

COL (mainly housing and childcare) is much different in Tulsa, OK vs. Falls Church, VA.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The failure of people who make 200k, 500k, etc to realize they are rich, is exactly the reason why we have such income disparity in the United States. Holy shit. Holy cognitive dissonance.

I disagree. The only reason why I make $200k (now, I started at 85k 11 years ago) is because I have two masters degrees and to do that I had to take out student loans of more than $100k. I fully recognize it is a choice to take out loans to get the degrees, but that choice came at a very high financial cost that still affects my disposable income. Gross income alone should not determine what class I am in if I could not have obtained that salary without my student loans.

OK, fine. How much do you pay in student loans a year? Subtract that from 200K and see if you aren't still up in the range that most Americans would call rich.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The failure of people who make 200k, 500k, etc to realize they are rich, is exactly the reason why we have such income disparity in the United States. Holy shit. Holy cognitive dissonance.

We make $430K. We are well off, but we are not rich because we work two full time jobs.

I think you proved the PP's point. Being "rich" doesn't imply that you don't work. You are definitely upper class, upper income, wealthy. Why are people in such denial? Do they not think that other families have two people working full time, if not more (like two people working a full time and a part time job each) only to make $50k a year?

I know many families who make $50k, live in nicer homes (outside the DC metro area), take real vacations,... I think the issue is that too many people are rich in income yet lead poorer quality of life.

Anonymous wrote:

I got it from www.huduser.org (sorry, can't figure out how to link). I started at HUD.gov and got pushed to huduser.org when looking up income limits for VA. The original arlington very low income range came from the county section 8 web page. Numbers from HUD were for 2013, the arlington numbers were from 2012.