Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a response from the forum about female circumcision that was referenced earlier in this thread...interesting...sounds familiar. Althought I'm sure many of you would never consider doing this to your girls.

"Re: Have you Sunat your girls?
Did sunat a week ago. Actually very mild. They basically removed about a third of your hood and leave the clitoris in tact. So basically your clitoris is exposed rather than covered by the hood. No pain and recovered in under a week.

Thanks for everyone for there help"

Do you really think this is representative if most female circumcisons? Educate yourself on FGM and then weigh in. Also, I don't believe for one second that removing a woman's clitoral hood isn't painful - you are delusional.

Referencing random blogs that you found through google is not helpful. There are those of us that have actually lived in countries where female circumcision is practiced and know women who went through this. The circumcision practiced in Malaysia is atypical and not as invasive as that normally practiced in Egypt, Sudan, Kenya, Somalia and other places. If female and male circumcision were the same, why would female circumcision be outlawed in some countries (such as Egypt), and why would there be an indigenous movement in each of these countries to end the practice through education and outreach to religious and medical leaders. Male circumcision in these countries is not controversial, but female circumcision is.

Is male circumcision controversial at all in Israel? In Muslim countries it is not, but I am curious as to whether this is a subject of debate within Israel.

In Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore, the Islamic circumcision ritual for girls ranges from rubbing turmeric on the genitals, to pricking the clitoris to draw a symbolic drop of blood. In other instances, the procedure is more invasive, involving what WHO classifies as “Type I” female genital mutilation, defined as excision of the clitoral hood, called the prepuce, with or without incision of the clitoris itself. The amount of flesh removed, if any, is described by circumcisers as being "the size of a quarter-grain of rice, a guava seed, a bean, the tip of a leaf, the head of a needle." They use a small pair of sterilized scissors to cut a piece of the clitoral prepuce "about the size of a nail clipping." In some areas, they do cut the clitoris itself.

The quote above wasn't from a blog but a discussion board like this one. http://www.mummysg.com/forums/f40/have-you-sunat-your-girls-29826/

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know that this is not exactly what you are getting at, butI am extremely bothered by all the negativity. It is intrusive and disrespectful while masquerading as a free-to-be-you-and-me mentality.

1. The people who say we are mutilating our children's genitals and use the term "intact" bother me immensely. My child is not incomplete in some way because he is circumcised. your kid is not circumcised, he is not "intact".

2. The people who say that we should leave the child to grow up and make his own decision. This makes no sense to me. What other decisions should we leave to our child? Is he allowed to hit his friends? Can he just stay awake all night watching movies? Decide what he wants to eat even if it is a 100% sugar diet? No! We are the parents. We decide things for our children all the time and yes a lot of them are permanent and last throughout their lives. We get to raise our children how we choose. that means we can discipline, form family traditions, celebrate holidays and circumcise our sons.

I have to ask those people who say we should let our children grow up and decide what religion to be if they force Christmas presents on their children before they are 18?

3. I did not dwell on the health benefits or the risks. We are Jewish and we had a bris and circumcised our son. I fully support parents making decisions for their children. And I expect everyone else to butt out.

Sorry, dictionary wanna be, but you don't get to police the language. My kid is intact. your kid is, by definition, not intact. You may use a euphemism if you like, but you can't force me to do the same so you feel better about what you did. And yes, I stand behind my belief that no parent should be forcing elective surgery on a newborn for cosmetic reasons or because their "god" tells them to. How ridiculous.

Here's the problem I have with the term "intact". It's not nice. Just say, your child is not circumcised. That's fine. The term intact is loaded with the implication of superiority. Are you teaching your child that circumcised children are incomplete? How will that play out in the school yard? Not well I imagine. What's funny is that circumcised children don't walk around talking about being circumcised. It's the people who didn't have their children circumcised that seem hell bent on finding out the situation in everyone's pants.

Sigh. Circumcised children ARE incomplete, or rather their penis is. I am very glad that my son has his whole penis. To be circumcised is to not have your whole penis. This is just basic anatomy.

I sure hope you don't have any piercings.

I am 100% Jewish and wouldn't hear of my DS being circumcised. We did an alternative bris that brought him into the fold without mutilating his manhood! I always figured if he wants to get circumcised when he is old enough to make the decision, more power to him. I'll leave it up to him.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let me state this again and state it clearly. Female circumcision is NOT ALWAYS about slicing off the clitoris. It is most commonly about cutting the clitoral hood, which is exactly the same as male circumcision and has exactly the same purpose as the foreskin. I am not minimizing it. I think it is a horrific tradition even in the more minimal form. However, I also believe that male circumcision is horrific. That is where we differ. You need to read up and understand the cultural background of them both and how female circumcision is COMMONLY performed in order to understand and that's why I suggest that you read that blog which I assume you haven't done. If you did read that or read thoroughly on the topic you would understand that there are vast differences in the way that female circumcision is performed AND that the justifications are commonly the same for boys or girls depending on which culture you are a part of.

What I find horrific is telling an 8yo girl that you're taking her to a party in her honor, then leading her into a shed where some old lady with no medical training, no anesthetic, and unsanitary tools slices off her clitoral hood (or does any other form of FC/FGM under the same conditions).

Honestly, if they wanted to remove the clitoral hood (or less) at infancy, with anesthetic and a doctor in a hospital, and valid scientific evidence showed that the risk was less than or at least roughly equal to any medical benefit--no, I would not have a problem with that.

But the two procedures are so far different from each other that there is just no comparison, and it's offensive to suggest there is.

PLEASE READ THIS: http://joseph4gi.blogspot.com/2011/06/circumcision-is-child-abuse-picture.html READ IT NOW!

Sorry for yelling, but seriously please read it and then come back and debate it. What you seem to not understand is that in many cases female circumcision takes place in medical or hospital settings on newborns - JUST LIKE WITH BOYS. Here, let me give you some quotes in case you are having trouble clicking on the link (these are from a discussion board much like DCUM):

NursMama: Re: Have you Sunat your girls?
yah... i also dont know how to explain how its done although i witnessed both my gals' procedures myself both done at different clinics by female Muslim doctors...

dont think it's like the cutting for boys.... it's more minimal.... baby can recover by the next day?

as for yourself..... errrrrrmmm... i'm not sure.... you might wanna ask the doctors wther its ok or not? i can give you the clinics address/no if you want

Ros0818: Re: Have you Sunat your girls?
hi hi
Yup, i brought my girl to d same doc; Dr Elly Sabrinadont worry. It will be very fast & quick!
It's done within a few seconds... I brought my baby der when she's about 2mths old. Doc will then give you a cream to apply on your baby. My girl recovers very fast. She gave a quick shriek during the process but after that she's fine. She never even cry after that. you can just give the doctor a call if you want to find out more.

nora23: Re: Have you Sunat your girls?
Went to Dr Balkis at Bedok. My 1st gal was then 6 mths old. It was very fast and only a pint of blood. My gal didnt cry and everything was per normal seconds after e sunat. Planning to bring my 2nd gal when she is 6 mths too.

In sunat process, nothin is done on e clitoris. Only a small part of e clitorial HOOD is snipped. The Dr even showed me e snipped hood, very very tiny fraction.

As for adult female muslim convert, I dont think its necessary to sunat. But its not wrong for you to do it either. Its best you consult muslim female doctors on e procedures and healing.

I'm with 20:30. It's non-negotiable.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know that this is not exactly what you are getting at, butI am extremely bothered by all the negativity. It is intrusive and disrespectful while masquerading as a free-to-be-you-and-me mentality.

1. The people who say we are mutilating our children's genitals and use the term "intact" bother me immensely. My child is not incomplete in some way because he is circumcised. your kid is not circumcised, he is not "intact".

2. The people who say that we should leave the child to grow up and make his own decision. This makes no sense to me. What other decisions should we leave to our child? Is he allowed to hit his friends? Can he just stay awake all night watching movies? Decide what he wants to eat even if it is a 100% sugar diet? No! We are the parents. We decide things for our children all the time and yes a lot of them are permanent and last throughout their lives. We get to raise our children how we choose. that means we can discipline, form family traditions, celebrate holidays and circumcise our sons.

I have to ask those people who say we should let our children grow up and decide what religion to be if they force Christmas presents on their children before they are 18?

3. I did not dwell on the health benefits or the risks. We are Jewish and we had a bris and circumcised our son. I fully support parents making decisions for their children. And I expect everyone else to butt out.

Sorry, dictionary wanna be, but you don't get to police the language. My kid is intact. your kid is, by definition, not intact. You may use a euphemism if you like, but you can't force me to do the same so you feel better about what you did. And yes, I stand behind my belief that no parent should be forcing elective surgery on a newborn for cosmetic reasons or because their "god" tells them to. How ridiculous.

Here's the problem I have with the term "intact". It's not nice. Just say, your child is not circumcised. That's fine. The term intact is loaded with the implication of superiority. Are you teaching your child that circumcised children are incomplete? How will that play out in the school yard? Not well I imagine. What's funny is that circumcised children don't walk around talking about being circumcised. It's the people who didn't have their children circumcised that seem hell bent on finding out the situation in everyone's pants.

Sigh. Circumcised children ARE incomplete, or rather their penis is. I am very glad that my son has his whole penis. To be circumcised is to not have your whole penis. This is just basic anatomy.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a movement amongst some Jews to not circumcise. I was under the impression that it was not a requirement...at least no more than keeping Kosher is.

Pretty observant Jew here - I'm going to choose to ignore the ridiculous conversation going on about circumcision and female genital mutilation and just focus on this misunderstanding.

Circumcision is absolutely a requirement in Judaism - it is the very basis of our covenant with God.

From the Torah: "This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and thy descendants after thee, every male among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall be circumcised on the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations (Genesis 17:10-12)."

Not circumcising is considered to be breaking the covenant with God. The very foundation of Judaism.

This is not the same as not keeping kosher - because kashrut laws are arguably rabbinical interpretations of much more obscure references in the Torah.

Simply put, uncircumcised boys are not considered Jewish, by any rabbi, tradition, or Jewish law.

In the original version of the Torah, the book of J, circumcision is not even mentioned.

This is anincorrect interpretation of the documentary hypothesis.

jindc wrote:I definitely understand people's strong opinions on the issue, but....like religion - and specifically Christianity, many people who believe in it are convinced that if you DONT follow what they believe is right, you're doing it wrong. And this is, to me, a stupid issue where people are always going to scold you for believing in the other sise.

I also believe much or the arguments against it largely stem for a dislike of the fact that it's a non-Christian religious practice. I don't think people like that it's something Jews (and Muslims, though most people don't know they do it too) do. I've lived in DC for a long time and work in an "educated" environment where people have no idea what a Jew is.

If you don't want to do this to your child, don't. Don't assume that people who do aren't aware of science or medicine, or are guided purely by aesthetics. Nor do I think it's appropriate for someone to think another is a bad parent because they have made their own (educated) decision to do something. I don't think this one decision - like many other decisions made by parents - are really any business of anyone else, especially if they don't impact your family. Not vaccinating your child when it goes to the same day care as mine? My business. Your son having foreskin? What do I care? I truly don't get the obsession with this, or with the decision other people make for their own families. Especially when 99% of people here (maybe even 100%!) are very educated and well versed in parenting issues.

This is DC - everyone's an expert on everything.

NP here. I understand the reasoning that since this doesn't impact anybody but your son and family, you think nobody should have an opinion on it. But see, the issue is (and I don't know why this is so hard to understand since it has been made abundantly clear) that people who are arguing against circumcision view it as a form of child abuse, and therefore as a moral issue. They feel they need to speak up just like they would speak up if they witnessed a discussion where someone was promoting other forms of child abuse. People who practice circumcision obviously disagree with their view and feel that it is none of anybody else's business, and just another parenting decision they make. The two parties will never agree because they see circumcision in so fundamentally different ways. But if you try to put yourself into the shoes of someone who thinks circumcision is child abuse, you might understand why they won't just back out of the discussion. Just like I can understand that you don't want to hear the judgment from the other side.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a movement amongst some Jews to not circumcise. I was under the impression that it was not a requirement...at least no more than keeping Kosher is.

Pretty observant Jew here - I'm going to choose to ignore the ridiculous conversation going on about circumcision and female genital mutilation and just focus on this misunderstanding.

Circumcision is absolutely a requirement in Judaism - it is the very basis of our covenant with God.

From the Torah: "This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and thy descendants after thee, every male among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall be circumcised on the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations (Genesis 17:10-12)."

Not circumcising is considered to be breaking the covenant with God. The very foundation of Judaism.

This is not the same as not keeping kosher - because kashrut laws are arguably rabbinical interpretations of much more obscure references in the Torah.

Simply put, uncircumcised boys are not considered Jewish, by any rabbi, tradition, or Jewish law.

I sometimes wish I were more religious, so the world could look this simple to me.

Not the above poster, but being more religious doesn't mean the world has to be simple. But some things may be made simpler, yes. We are Conservative Jews. We don't keep kosher or Shabbat, but it is non-negotiable that we go to shul on the High Holidays, fast on Yom Kippur (barring serious illness), keep Passover, and circumcise our sons. Certainly the fasting and the circumcising are, as PP pointed out, religious requirements. At least if you consider yourself at all religious -- plenty of people consider themselves Jewish but not religious, more secular, so they may not do these things and that is their choice. I may wrestle with a lot of religious questions, but something so fundamental to the Jewish soul as circumcision is not one of them.

+1

My sentiments exactly.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a movement amongst some Jews to not circumcise. I was under the impression that it was not a requirement...at least no more than keeping Kosher is.

Pretty observant Jew here - I'm going to choose to ignore the ridiculous conversation going on about circumcision and female genital mutilation and just focus on this misunderstanding.

Circumcision is absolutely a requirement in Judaism - it is the very basis of our covenant with God.

From the Torah: "This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and thy descendants after thee, every male among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall be circumcised on the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations (Genesis 17:10-12)."

Not circumcising is considered to be breaking the covenant with God. The very foundation of Judaism.

This is not the same as not keeping kosher - because kashrut laws are arguably rabbinical interpretations of much more obscure references in the Torah.

Simply put, uncircumcised boys are not considered Jewish, by any rabbi, tradition, or Jewish law.

I sometimes wish I were more religious, so the world could look this simple to me.

Not the above poster, but being more religious doesn't mean the world has to be simple. But some things may be made simpler, yes. We are Conservative Jews. We don't keep kosher or Shabbat, but it is non-negotiable that we go to shul on the High Holidays, fast on Yom Kippur (barring serious illness), keep Passover, and circumcise our sons. Certainly the fasting and the circumcising are, as PP pointed out, religious requirements. At least if you consider yourself at all religious -- plenty of people consider themselves Jewish but not religious, more secular, so they may not do these things and that is their choice. I may wrestle with a lot of religious questions, but something so fundamental to the Jewish soul as circumcision is not one of them.

For those Jews who really do feel conflicted, here is a resource:

http://www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/

check out the links for bris shalom

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a movement amongst some Jews to not circumcise. I was under the impression that it was not a requirement...at least no more than keeping Kosher is.

Pretty observant Jew here - I'm going to choose to ignore the ridiculous conversation going on about circumcision and female genital mutilation and just focus on this misunderstanding.

Circumcision is absolutely a requirement in Judaism - it is the very basis of our covenant with God.

From the Torah: "This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and thy descendants after thee, every male among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall be circumcised on the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations (Genesis 17:10-12)."

Not circumcising is considered to be breaking the covenant with God. The very foundation of Judaism.

This is not the same as not keeping kosher - because kashrut laws are arguably rabbinical interpretations of much more obscure references in the Torah.

Simply put, uncircumcised boys are not considered Jewish, by any rabbi, tradition, or Jewish law.

In the original version of the Torah, the book of J, circumcision is not even mentioned.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a movement amongst some Jews to not circumcise. I was under the impression that it was not a requirement...at least no more than keeping Kosher is.

Pretty observant Jew here - I'm going to choose to ignore the ridiculous conversation going on about circumcision and female genital mutilation and just focus on this misunderstanding.

Circumcision is absolutely a requirement in Judaism - it is the very basis of our covenant with God.

From the Torah: "This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and thy descendants after thee, every male among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall be circumcised on the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations (Genesis 17:10-12)."

Not circumcising is considered to be breaking the covenant with God. The very foundation of Judaism.

This is not the same as not keeping kosher - because kashrut laws are arguably rabbinical interpretations of much more obscure references in the Torah.

Simply put, uncircumcised boys are not considered Jewish, by any rabbi, tradition, or Jewish law.

I sometimes wish I were more religious, so the world could look this simple to me.

Anonymous wrote:There is a movement amongst some Jews to not circumcise. I was under the impression that it was not a requirement...at least no more than keeping Kosher is.

Pretty observant Jew here - I'm going to choose to ignore the ridiculous conversation going on about circumcision and female genital mutilation and just focus on this misunderstanding.

Circumcision is absolutely a requirement in Judaism - it is the very basis of our covenant with God.

From the Torah: "This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and thy descendants after thee, every male among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall be circumcised on the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations (Genesis 17:10-12)."

Not circumcising is considered to be breaking the covenant with God. The very foundation of Judaism.

This is not the same as not keeping kosher - because kashrut laws are arguably rabbinical interpretations of much more obscure references in the Torah.

Simply put, uncircumcised boys are not considered Jewish, by any rabbi, tradition, or Jewish law.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a response from the forum about female circumcision that was referenced earlier in this thread...interesting...sounds familiar. Althought I'm sure many of you would never consider doing this to your girls.

"Re: Have you Sunat your girls?
Did sunat a week ago. Actually very mild. They basically removed about a third of your hood and leave the clitoris in tact. So basically your clitoris is exposed rather than covered by the hood. No pain and recovered in under a week.

Thanks for everyone for there help"

Do you really think this is representative if most female circumcisons? Educate yourself on FGM and then weigh in. Also, I don't believe for one second that removing a woman's clitoral hood isn't painful - you are delusional.

Referencing random blogs that you found through google is not helpful. There are those of us that have actually lived in countries where female circumcision is practiced and know women who went through this. The circumcision practiced in Malaysia is atypical and not as invasive as that normally practiced in Egypt, Sudan, Kenya, Somalia and other places. If female and male circumcision were the same, why would female circumcision be outlawed in some countries (such as Egypt), and why would there be an indigenous movement in each of these countries to end the practice through education and outreach to religious and medical leaders. Male circumcision in these countries is not controversial, but female circumcision is.

Is male circumcision controversial at all in Israel? In Muslim countries it is not, but I am curious as to whether this is a subject of debate within Israel.