takoma
Post 03/28/2013 11:04     Subject: Grace Before Dinner -- Appropriate?
Not all of us atheists are totally dismissive of prayer. Both as a comfort for the one making the prayer, and conceivably for the unknown power of concentrated brain-waves, I think it serves a purpose. However, to the extent that people believe that God will decide how the universe should proceed based on their desires, especially for stuff like the turnout of today's game, I think it demeans to notion of God.
Anonymous
Post 03/28/2013 08:27     Subject: Grace Before Dinner -- Appropriate?
Anonymous wrote:

Awesome. And as part of my religion at the end of my prayer I pull down my pants and took a crap on the table. That is where we celebrate Krampus.
Would you accept that as part of my religion?


Well, you're obviously an asshole. So if we loved you (which is hard to imagine), we'd have to accept that taking a dump is an asshole's only function.
Anonymous
Post 03/28/2013 08:16     Subject: Grace Before Dinner -- Appropriate?
Anonymous wrote:All the evidence indicates that prayer does not effect the physical world and if it affects a persons mental state, it cannot be shown to have anything to do with a big ear, listening in the sky.

If on a certain day, the Sun will go down at 7:00 PM, and at 1:00 PM we start praying for it to go down, if we pray long enough the Sun will go down. Someone starts praying at 1:00 PM and grows tired of praying without getting any results by 4:00 PM. So at 4:00 PM they stop praying for the Sun to go down. Well obviously they will conclude that prayer doesn't work and the prayer warriors will say, "Well, if you think prayer doesn't work it's because you haven't prayed enough." And of course, they're right, because if the person had prayed for three more hours their prayer would have been answered.

See if you can pray the Sun down any earlier than when it is set to go down according to the forecast for your location. Get you whole church congregation to pray or get all the people in the world to pray, and guess what will happen?

I'll tell you what will happen:

1:00 PM - start praying for the Sun to go down.
1:01 PM - God says, "Not yet!"
1:02 PM - God says, "Not yet!"
• • •
6:59 PM - God says, "Not yet!"
7:00 PM - God says, "Now!", and answers the prayer. And the gullible believe more than ever as they shout, "Thank you Jesus" - "Praise the Lord!" - "God is great!"
What I'm saying is that all those table prayers are only being heard by people anyway. So while you are wrapped up in your tradition and dogma and whatever, talking to the sky fairy, I'm going to be eating before the meal gets cold.


Actually, there has been lots of evidence that prayer works, in various ways different from what you've described above. Rare is the person who thinks that God intervenes to change planetary alignments according to his or her own personal whim, obviously, which is what makes your example irrelevant.

However, I don't care if you choose to disbelieve in evidence of prayer's efficacy, or to disbelieve anything else for that matter. Believe or disbelieve what you want. Just make an effort to be respectful.
Anonymous
Post 03/28/2013 07:28     Subject: Grace Before Dinner -- Appropriate?
Anonymous wrote:All the evidence indicates that prayer does not effect the physical world and if it affects a persons mental state, it cannot be shown to have anything to do with a big ear, listening in the sky.

If on a certain day, the Sun will go down at 7:00 PM, and at 1:00 PM we start praying for it to go down, if we pray long enough the Sun will go down. Someone starts praying at 1:00 PM and grows tired of praying without getting any results by 4:00 PM. So at 4:00 PM they stop praying for the Sun to go down. Well obviously they will conclude that prayer doesn't work and the prayer warriors will say, "Well, if you think prayer doesn't work it's because you haven't prayed enough." And of course, they're right, because if the person had prayed for three more hours their prayer would have been answered.

See if you can pray the Sun down any earlier than when it is set to go down according to the forecast for your location. Get you whole church congregation to pray or get all the people in the world to pray, and guess what will happen?

I'll tell you what will happen:

1:00 PM - start praying for the Sun to go down.
1:01 PM - God says, "Not yet!"
1:02 PM - God says, "Not yet!"
• • •
6:59 PM - God says, "Not yet!"
7:00 PM - God says, "Now!", and answers the prayer. And the gullible believe more than ever as they shout, "Thank you Jesus" - "Praise the Lord!" - "God is great!"
What I'm saying is that all those table prayers are only being heard by people anyway. So while you are wrapped up in your tradition and dogma and whatever, talking to the sky fairy, I'm going to be eating before the meal gets cold.


Being totally disrespectful on DCUM is a sign of your superior intelligence and the other atheists here are giving you high fives all around. The only bad behavior is when OP's FIL disrespects OP's guests. Got it.
Anonymous
Post 03/28/2013 06:42     Subject: Grace Before Dinner -- Appropriate?
Anonymous wrote:All the evidence indicates that prayer does not effect the physical world and if it affects a persons mental state, it cannot be shown to have anything to do with a big ear, listening in the sky.

If on a certain day, the Sun will go down at 7:00 PM, and at 1:00 PM we start praying for it to go down, if we pray long enough the Sun will go down. Someone starts praying at 1:00 PM and grows tired of praying without getting any results by 4:00 PM. So at 4:00 PM they stop praying for the Sun to go down. Well obviously they will conclude that prayer doesn't work and the prayer warriors will say, "Well, if you think prayer doesn't work it's because you haven't prayed enough." And of course, they're right, because if the person had prayed for three more hours their prayer would have been answered.

See if you can pray the Sun down any earlier than when it is set to go down according to the forecast for your location. Get you whole church congregation to pray or get all the people in the world to pray, and guess what will happen?

I'll tell you what will happen:

1:00 PM - start praying for the Sun to go down.
1:01 PM - God says, "Not yet!"
1:02 PM - God says, "Not yet!"
• • •
6:59 PM - God says, "Not yet!"
7:00 PM - God says, "Now!", and answers the prayer. And the gullible believe more than ever as they shout, "Thank you Jesus" - "Praise the Lord!" - "God is great!"
What I'm saying is that all those table prayers are only being heard by people anyway. So while you are wrapped up in your tradition and dogma and whatever, talking to the sky fairy, I'm going to be eating before the meal gets cold.



Agreed. Prayer is only viable as personal meditation - it may calm you down if you're upset, anxious, or otherwise in a less than ideal mental state. But it does nothing to change the outcome of the world, or others.
Anonymous
Post 03/28/2013 01:38     Subject: Grace Before Dinner -- Appropriate?
All the evidence indicates that prayer does not effect the physical world and if it affects a persons mental state, it cannot be shown to have anything to do with a big ear, listening in the sky.

If on a certain day, the Sun will go down at 7:00 PM, and at 1:00 PM we start praying for it to go down, if we pray long enough the Sun will go down. Someone starts praying at 1:00 PM and grows tired of praying without getting any results by 4:00 PM. So at 4:00 PM they stop praying for the Sun to go down. Well obviously they will conclude that prayer doesn't work and the prayer warriors will say, "Well, if you think prayer doesn't work it's because you haven't prayed enough." And of course, they're right, because if the person had prayed for three more hours their prayer would have been answered.

See if you can pray the Sun down any earlier than when it is set to go down according to the forecast for your location. Get you whole church congregation to pray or get all the people in the world to pray, and guess what will happen?

I'll tell you what will happen:

1:00 PM - start praying for the Sun to go down.
1:01 PM - God says, "Not yet!"
1:02 PM - God says, "Not yet!"
• • •
6:59 PM - God says, "Not yet!"
7:00 PM - God says, "Now!", and answers the prayer. And the gullible believe more than ever as they shout, "Thank you Jesus" - "Praise the Lord!" - "God is great!"
What I'm saying is that all those table prayers are only being heard by people anyway. So while you are wrapped up in your tradition and dogma and whatever, talking to the sky fairy, I'm going to be eating before the meal gets cold.
Anonymous
Post 12/27/2012 13:55     Subject: Re:Grace Before Dinner -- Appropriate?
It's a bit presumptuous of a guest to do this, IMO, but I know of families in which it would be perfectly acceptable and indeed expected. Had you never previously hosted your FIL for dinner? Does he usually do this? And what does your husband think?
Anonymous
Post 12/27/2012 13:32     Subject: Grace Before Dinner -- Appropriate?
Your house, your rules. Not FILs rules.
Anonymous
Post 12/27/2012 13:28     Subject: Grace Before Dinner -- Appropriate?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:He's part of your family, and he wanted to say grace. It barely impacts you at all--you just have to sit there for a minute and ignore whatever he said. If he was asking you to lead the prayer, or something, I'd be more opposed.


If I was part of your family and wanted to say a prayer to the devil, would you just sit there for a minute and ignore it?


Yes


Awesome. And as part of my religion at the end of my prayer I pull down my pants and took a crap on the table. That is where we celebrate Krampus.
Would you accept that as part of my religion?
Anonymous
Post 12/27/2012 13:27     Subject: Grace Before Dinner -- Appropriate?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:He's part of your family, and he wanted to say grace. It barely impacts you at all--you just have to sit there for a minute and ignore whatever he said. If he was asking you to lead the prayer, or something, I'd be more opposed.


If I was part of your family and wanted to say a prayer to the devil, would you just sit there for a minute and ignore it?


But that's completely different! God is a good guy, and responsible for all the good stuff in the universe, but the devil is a bad guy! Everyone agrees on this!


No, darling, not everyone agrees on this


Sarcasm, I think.
Anonymous
Post 12/27/2012 13:25     Subject: Grace Before Dinner -- Appropriate?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:He's part of your family, and he wanted to say grace. It barely impacts you at all--you just have to sit there for a minute and ignore whatever he said. If he was asking you to lead the prayer, or something, I'd be more opposed.


If I was part of your family and wanted to say a prayer to the devil, would you just sit there for a minute and ignore it?


Yes
Anonymous
Post 12/27/2012 13:11     Subject: Grace Before Dinner -- Appropriate?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:He's part of your family, and he wanted to say grace. It barely impacts you at all--you just have to sit there for a minute and ignore whatever he said. If he was asking you to lead the prayer, or something, I'd be more opposed.


If I was part of your family and wanted to say a prayer to the devil, would you just sit there for a minute and ignore it?


But that's completely different! God is a good guy, and responsible for all the good stuff in the universe, but the devil is a bad guy! Everyone agrees on this!


No, darling, not everyone agrees on this
Anonymous
Post 12/27/2012 13:04     Subject: Grace Before Dinner -- Appropriate?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:He's part of your family, and he wanted to say grace. It barely impacts you at all--you just have to sit there for a minute and ignore whatever he said. If he was asking you to lead the prayer, or something, I'd be more opposed.


If I was part of your family and wanted to say a prayer to the devil, would you just sit there for a minute and ignore it?


But that's completely different! God is a good guy, and responsible for all the good stuff in the universe, but the devil is a bad guy! Everyone agrees on this!
Anonymous
Post 12/27/2012 12:18     Subject: Grace Before Dinner -- Appropriate?
Anonymous wrote:He's part of your family, and he wanted to say grace. It barely impacts you at all--you just have to sit there for a minute and ignore whatever he said. If he was asking you to lead the prayer, or something, I'd be more opposed.


If I was part of your family and wanted to say a prayer to the devil, would you just sit there for a minute and ignore it?
Anonymous
Post 12/27/2012 12:17     Subject: Grace Before Dinner -- Appropriate?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I would have just along with it. It's customary for the oldest male to assume the "pater familias" role and say a few words of thanks before a meal. If you find that strange, well, you will have a hard row to hoe b/c you are really swimming upsteam against a lot of tradition. Good luck.


It's also customary for women to stay home and care for children. However, the fact that I'm posting from work tells you that someone had to say, someone swam upstream against that tradition at somepoint.



Bingo! That's the "assumed privilege" part of it. Of course it's perfectly natural for the eldest Christian white male to compel everyone to hold hands and say grace to the Christian deity. Just as it would have been utterly unnatural for a woman, Jew, or Wiccan to have done so.

Same shit with "white privilege", "male privilege", etc... Stop swimming upstream against tradition and get me a beer, woman!


As a woman, I'm way to smart to swim upstream. You get me a beer, man.