Anonymous wrote:

Materialism only gets you so far, PP.

Yes, I agree. It does not get me to a place where I can imagine a heaven into being. But I definitely understand why people have done so. The first time my sweet little girl asked me in tears, what happens when people die, I lied my ass off to her, and told her all about God and heaven. I know it is all a myth, but I couldn't bear to tell my child the sad truth.

I'm sure that the same impulse is what caused our various societies throughout history to invent the concept of an afterlife and God. Our brains need to make meaning out of noise. It is what we do while alive, and we do it very very well. We did it with the Egyptian myths, the Greek myths, the Hindu myths, the Norse myths, the Zoroastrian myths, the Hebrew myths. The Catholic myths on which I was raised are just another addition to the cycle or stories.

I realize why people need these myths, and I don't blame you for seeking them and promoting them, and if you are able to believe, I don't wonder that you pity those of us who realize they aren't true. If I were you, I'd feel the same way about me.

But I don't hate you, nor do I mock you, nor do I seek out believers to destroy their faith (not that you can -- there is no argument against faith, because it is not based on logic.)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well, he quoted some scripture that said that. He probably had to quote scripture, given it was a religious service. Not only do I think 22:54 stated it beautifully, I think Obama's an atheist and would agree with him/her.

Interesting. You think he is completely faking his Christianity? What makes you believe that? He's too smart to believe in God?

Yes. That, and when he has been put on the spot to talk about religion in the past, he brings up how the church was a force for good during the civil rights movement -- social justice reasons, rather than faith reasons. Which is also what I would talk about if I were running for president in this country since coming out as an atheist would be political suicide. And he's never had long-term ties to any particular church. But, yes, mainly because he's logical (i.e. "smart") in his approach to issues.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unless there is Someone, a Lawgiver, who transcends any human society.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
No. I don't need a mythical being in the sky to teach me the difference between right and wrong. To tell me that shooting people is wrong is unnecessary. I know this intuitively. I have empathy for others. I don't do things to people that I wouldn't want done to me. Just like I don't need someone to tell me to beat my heart or breathe in and out. I have love in me, that's the only higher power I need to guide my actions.

I think there is something wrong with people who need a "transcendent someone" to tell them what to do. Really, you have to open up the Bible and look up the chapter and verse that says cruelty or selfishness or slaughter is wrong???

Google "argument from conscience."

Well, it's nice that philosophers think that my intuition proves the existence of God. I don't - necessarily - agree.

I think human intelligence gives us a capacity to observe the pain in others, and to feel it ourselves by proxy, and to abhor that pain and the idea of causing it to others. Watching others in pain causes a physical response in me, as I'm sure it does in others - an ability to feel, in some small measure, what the other person is feeling, and to want to make that pain go away. I suppose it COULD be "God" who gave us our empathy. Or it could be a simple consequence of our intelligence.

Being empathic allows humans to cooperate and work together as a society. Natural selection would have encouraged this trait throughout our history.

Unless you are an unbalanced, homicidal loner.

Or a clever egomaniac.

Or a powerful dictator.

Or a sadist.

But then, it doesn't matter who their victims are, because it's just the circle of life, the coming together and falling apart of chaotic cosmic dust. Some people are lucky enough to randomly be conceived in a group of humans who cooperate. Others, not so lucky. But there is no meaning to it all. Just circumstance.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Barack Obama said tonight the way to look at the massacre is from an eternal perspective.

How do atheists process his words of comfort and hope?

Well, he quoted some scripture that said that. He probably had to quote scripture, given it was a religious service. Not only do I think 22:54 stated it beautifully, I think Obama's an atheist and would agree with him/her.

Interesting. You think he is completely faking his Christianity? What makes you believe that? He's too smart to believe in God?

Here's what he said last night:

"Scripture tells us: “…do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away…inwardly we are being renewed day by day. For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.”

...

[Love] is what we can be sure of. And that’s what you, the people of Newtown, have reminded us. That’s how you’ve inspired us. You remind us what matters. And that’s what should drive us forward in everything we do, for as long as God sees fit to keep us on this Earth.

“Let the little children come to me,” Jesus said, “and do not hinder them — for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

God has called them all home. For those of us who remain, let us find the strength to carry on, and make our country worthy of their memory.

May God bless and keep those we’ve lost in His heavenly place. May He grace those we still have with His holy comfort. And may He bless and watch over this community, and the United States of America."

You think that was insincere?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unless there is Someone, a Lawgiver, who transcends any human society.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
No. I don't need a mythical being in the sky to teach me the difference between right and wrong. To tell me that shooting people is wrong is unnecessary. I know this intuitively. I have empathy for others. I don't do things to people that I wouldn't want done to me. Just like I don't need someone to tell me to beat my heart or breathe in and out. I have love in me, that's the only higher power I need to guide my actions.

I think there is something wrong with people who need a "transcendent someone" to tell them what to do. Really, you have to open up the Bible and look up the chapter and verse that says cruelty or selfishness or slaughter is wrong???

Google "argument from conscience."

Well, it's nice that philosophers think that my intuition proves the existence of God. I don't - necessarily - agree.

I think human intelligence gives us a capacity to observe the pain in others, and to feel it ourselves by proxy, and to abhor that pain and the idea of causing it to others. Watching others in pain causes a physical response in me, as I'm sure it does in others - an ability to feel, in some small measure, what the other person is feeling, and to want to make that pain go away. I suppose it COULD be "God" who gave us our empathy. Or it could be a simple consequence of our intelligence.

Being empathic allows humans to cooperate and work together as a society. Natural selection would have encouraged this trait throughout our history.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But I know heaven, the afterlife, doesn't exist.

How do you KNOW?

Well, it depends what you mean by afterlife. But the kind of afterlife I learned about as a child, where your soul was somehow up in heaven, looking down on your loved ones, remember them, I know cannot exist. Memories and thoughts are conducted in the brain; they require neurons and synapses, and those disintegrate and decompose when the body dies. So there is no way for your memories to go with "you" when you die.

So if you want to think of the "afterlife" as the place where your atoms get recycled into other things, then yes I can see that there is an afterlife, of course. But otherwise, not.

Materialism only gets you so far, PP.

Anonymous wrote:Unless there is Someone, a Lawgiver, who transcends any human society.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
No. I don't need a mythical being in the sky to teach me the difference between right and wrong. To tell me that shooting people is wrong is unnecessary. I know this intuitively. I have empathy for others. I don't do things to people that I wouldn't want done to me. Just like I don't need someone to tell me to beat my heart or breathe in and out. I have love in me, that's the only higher power I need to guide my actions.

I think there is something wrong with people who need a "transcendent someone" to tell them what to do. Really, you have to open up the Bible and look up the chapter and verse that says cruelty or selfishness or slaughter is wrong???

Google "argument from conscience."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is no comfort to be found in this. Either there is a God and he failed those children or their isn't a God and the children are dead and that is it. I don't know what side of the fence I fall on, to be honest. I think it all sucks.

Agreed.

But the former possibility allows for hope, and faith, and love conquering all.

The latter position is only despair, because then violence and senseless destruction would ALWAYS be stronger than love. Murderers would live well, while innocent children would be nothing more than fodder. All of us would be nothing more than atoms, and justice and love would be fantasies, rather than reality.

Any thinking, feeling human being would be tempted to despair sometimes. But we can choose to have faith in God, choose to hope in justice and mercy, and choose to love.

I choose faith, hope, and love.

Anonymous wrote:

Where was God on Friday? That's what I want to know. On vacation? All this talk of God's mercy and God's love - where was He when innocent babies were being slaughtered

Crying. That's truly what I believe. His heart is broken. These were His children first.

God gave man free will. With that gift comes the power to choose evil. God never promised us an easy life. There is pain, sorrow, and hurt all around us. God did promise to remain with us. He demonstrated that perfect love when His own Son was brutally murdered. Why doesn't he step in and stop horrible things from happening? I'm not sure. But I think we are here on earth to learn to love each other. We are supposed to figure this stuff out by our own free will, not because He forces us to behave a certain way. Unfortunately, most people (myself included) haven't even come close to figuring it out.

"God" (in pretty much every religion) said- Love each other. That's the single most important thing we need to learn. When we figure that out, the world will heal.

Thank you, PP. This is exactly what God is about and what we should be striving for each day. I wish I could have expressed this as well as you did here.

I also found your words beautiful, PP. They reminded me of an article I read on Patheos today:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2012/12/where-was-god-in-sandy-hook.html

Unless there is Someone, a Lawgiver, who transcends any human society.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
No. I don't need a mythical being in the sky to teach me the difference between right and wrong. To tell me that shooting people is wrong is unnecessary. I know this intuitively. I have empathy for others. I don't do things to people that I wouldn't want done to me. Just like I don't need someone to tell me to beat my heart or breathe in and out. I have love in me, that's the only higher power I need to guide my actions.

I think there is something wrong with people who need a "transcendent someone" to tell them what to do. Really, you have to open up the Bible and look up the chapter and verse that says cruelty or selfishness or slaughter is wrong???

Anonymous wrote:

But I know heaven, the afterlife, doesn't exist.

How do you KNOW?

Well, it depends what you mean by afterlife. But the kind of afterlife I learned about as a child, where your soul was somehow up in heaven, looking down on your loved ones, remember them, I know cannot exist. Memories and thoughts are conducted in the brain; they require neurons and synapses, and those disintegrate and decompose when the body dies. So there is no way for your memories to go with "you" when you die.

So if you want to think of the "afterlife" as the place where your atoms get recycled into other things, then yes I can see that there is an afterlife, of course. But otherwise, not.

I think the president was speaking more as a parent last night than a Christian. I didn't really get the comforting vibe from his speech. I thought he said "this is a national nightmare and because I, the parent of 2 sweet girls myself, am also the President, I'm going to turn my anger into action do that no more babies get slaughtered in our country. Not on my watch- I can't go to any more of these damn services!"

No one was suggesting there is any comfort to be taken in the tragedy that ocurred on Friday. You are not reading the posts or listening to the President's words.

Anonymous wrote:Barack Obama said tonight the way to look at the massacre is from an eternal perspective.

How do atheists process his words of comfort and hope?

Where exactly is the comfort in this situation to be found? Families sent their children to school, never to see them again. The ones that survived have lived through a horror I hope none of us ever know.

There is no greater good in that. There is no silver lining. Sure, we want to tell ourselves that it was great to see someone act as a hero or see someone get through the adversity. But, it's not fair that they had to do that. It will never be comforting.

Where was God on Friday? That's what I want to know. On vacation? All this talk of God's mercy and God's love - where was He when innocent babies were being slaughtered

Crying. That's truly what I believe. His heart is broken. These were His children first.

God gave man free will. With that gift comes the power to choose evil. God never promised us an easy life. There is pain, sorrow, and hurt all around us. God did promise to remain with us. He demonstrated that perfect love when His own Son was brutally murdered. Why doesn't he step in and stop horrible things from happening? I'm not sure. But I think we are here on earth to learn to love each other. We are supposed to figure this stuff out by our own free will, not because He forces us to behave a certain way. Unfortunately, most people (myself included) haven't even come close to figuring it out.

"God" (in pretty much every religion) said- Love each other. That's the single most important thing we need to learn. When we figure that out, the world will heal.

Thank you, PP. This is exactly what God is about and what we should be striving for each day. I wish I could have expressed this as well as you did here.