Anonymous
11/12/2012 07:04
Subject: Deal or Basis for DCs? Advice Needed.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:How many of these 'advanced learners' do you think there are, 13:04, in DC and how do you know they are advanced?
Likely, you will want to use a standardized test to measure (poorly and unreliably) advanced-ness, but which one? DC-CAS? Are there sufficient numbers to justify selective admissions and city wide tracking?
Without the numbers, it would be a hard sell.
13:04 here. It would be a hard sell regardless.
Why do you need numbers when you have percentages? I'm hardly an expert on talented and gifted programs in this country. But I've read that school systems supporting gifted education include, on average, kids testing in the top 5% in the jurisdiction in question (be it a state, county, school district, or city).
Apparently, the range of included kids runs anywhere from 0%, as in DC, to the top 1% in reading AND math (stingy jurisdictions), to the top 20% in either reading OR math (generous jurisdictions, like Fairfax). Moreover, test-in programs around the country employ a variety of tests/methods to screen potential participants, anything from half a dozen nationally recognized tests, to state standardized tests, to school and magnet program-specific tests.
The best run and least controversial talented and gifted programs seem to use tests only as a screening mechanism, at least for middle school-age kids, adding in-school assessments, application essays and recommendations from teachers and other mentors to round out the picture of a kid. They also offer parents and teachers a route to challenge a denial to a program, so a kid gets a second look if adults ask for one. And they offer additional chances to enter the program after the normal entrance time. In the end, the truly capable and disciplined are likely to be welcomed in. This is the way the MoCo MS magnet programs work.
What we have in DC is a public school system that protects average kids from competition from advanced peers and, in doing so, drives out most of the local talent, and parents with Ivy League dreams for their children, even before MS. It's not just affluent kids who peel off for privates and the burbs, it's a good many talented poor kids fleeing mediocrity by heading to independents on scholarships.
Unless DCPS and DC Charter parents start putting in the time and energy to figure out which pols to support to change the calculus and organizing to get them in or boot them out, change will only come glacially. I've been watching NAEP results for DC, as well as admissions to my Ivy from DC public high schools, for a decade. Nothing much seems to be changing beyond a few more high-SES kids coming in for MS and sticking around for HS.
I applaud any parent with an advanced learner with the vision and stamina to lobby the pols (whether or not you stay).
Has anybody ever dared to organize a public forum on gifted education in DC? Is the time right? Does anybody want to?
The need is there but the politics are a little difficult. Out-of-state, for-profit charters are trying to add privates to their mix. Perhaps they should go this route instead and lend a hand.
Huh?
Anonymous
11/12/2012 01:17
Subject: Deal or Basis for DCs? Advice Needed.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:How many of these 'advanced learners' do you think there are, 13:04, in DC and how do you know they are advanced?
Likely, you will want to use a standardized test to measure (poorly and unreliably) advanced-ness, but which one? DC-CAS? Are there sufficient numbers to justify selective admissions and city wide tracking?
Without the numbers, it would be a hard sell.
13:04 here. It would be a hard sell regardless.
Why do you need numbers when you have percentages? I'm hardly an expert on talented and gifted programs in this country. But I've read that school systems supporting gifted education include, on average, kids testing in the top 5% in the jurisdiction in question (be it a state, county, school district, or city).
Apparently, the range of included kids runs anywhere from 0%, as in DC, to the top 1% in reading AND math (stingy jurisdictions), to the top 20% in either reading OR math (generous jurisdictions, like Fairfax). Moreover, test-in programs around the country employ a variety of tests/methods to screen potential participants, anything from half a dozen nationally recognized tests, to state standardized tests, to school and magnet program-specific tests.
The best run and least controversial talented and gifted programs seem to use tests only as a screening mechanism, at least for middle school-age kids, adding in-school assessments, application essays and recommendations from teachers and other mentors to round out the picture of a kid. They also offer parents and teachers a route to challenge a denial to a program, so a kid gets a second look if adults ask for one. And they offer additional chances to enter the program after the normal entrance time. In the end, the truly capable and disciplined are likely to be welcomed in. This is the way the MoCo MS magnet programs work.
What we have in DC is a public school system that protects average kids from competition from advanced peers and, in doing so, drives out most of the local talent, and parents with Ivy League dreams for their children, even before MS. It's not just affluent kids who peel off for privates and the burbs, it's a good many talented poor kids fleeing mediocrity by heading to independents on scholarships.
Unless DCPS and DC Charter parents start putting in the time and energy to figure out which pols to support to change the calculus and organizing to get them in or boot them out, change will only come glacially. I've been watching NAEP results for DC, as well as admissions to my Ivy from DC public high schools, for a decade. Nothing much seems to be changing beyond a few more high-SES kids coming in for MS and sticking around for HS.
I applaud any parent with an advanced learner with the vision and stamina to lobby the pols (whether or not you stay).
Has anybody ever dared to organize a public forum on gifted education in DC? Is the time right? Does anybody want to?
The need is there but the politics are a little difficult. Out-of-state, for-profit charters are trying to add privates to their mix. Perhaps they should go this route instead and lend a hand.
Anonymous
11/11/2012 23:14
Subject: Deal or Basis for DCs? Advice Needed.
Anonymous wrote:How many of these 'advanced learners' do you think there are, 13:04, in DC and how do you know they are advanced?
Likely, you will want to use a standardized test to measure (poorly and unreliably) advanced-ness, but which one? DC-CAS? Are there sufficient numbers to justify selective admissions and city wide tracking?
Without the numbers, it would be a hard sell.
13:04 here. It would be a hard sell regardless.
Why do you need numbers when you have percentages? I'm hardly an expert on talented and gifted programs in this country. But I've read that school systems supporting gifted education include, on average, kids testing in the top 5% in the jurisdiction in question (be it a state, county, school district, or city).
Apparently, the range of included kids runs anywhere from 0%, as in DC, to the top 1% in reading AND math (stingy jurisdictions), to the top 20% in either reading OR math (generous jurisdictions, like Fairfax). Moreover, test-in programs around the country employ a variety of tests/methods to screen potential participants, anything from half a dozen nationally recognized tests, to state standardized tests, to school and magnet program-specific tests.
The best run and least controversial talented and gifted programs seem to use tests only as a screening mechanism, at least for middle school-age kids, adding in-school assessments, application essays and recommendations from teachers and other mentors to round out the picture of a kid. They also offer parents and teachers a route to challenge a denial to a program, so a kid gets a second look if adults ask for one. And they offer additional chances to enter the program after the normal entrance time. In the end, the truly capable and disciplined are likely to be welcomed in. This is the way the MoCo MS magnet programs work.
What we have in DC is a public school system that protects average kids from competition from advanced peers and, in doing so, drives out most of the local talent, and parents with Ivy League dreams for their children, even before MS. It's not just affluent kids who peel off for privates and the burbs, it's a good many talented poor kids fleeing mediocrity by heading to independents on scholarships.
Unless DCPS and DC Charter parents start putting in the time and energy to figure out which pols to support to change the calculus and organizing to get them in or boot them out, change will only come glacially. I've been watching NAEP results for DC, as well as admissions to my Ivy from DC public high schools, for a decade. Nothing much seems to be changing beyond a few more high-SES kids coming in for MS and sticking around for HS.
I applaud any parent with an advanced learner with the vision and stamina to lobby the pols (whether or not you stay).
Has anybody ever dared to organize a public forum on gifted education in DC? Is the time right? Does anybody want to?
Anonymous
11/11/2012 22:13
Subject: Deal or Basis for DCs? Advice Needed.
Anonymous wrote:Hardy may be OK enough for the OOB families, but there is not enough change in my opinion. The current principal is still unclear on her vision.
Well, then I guess you can attempt to enroll at BASIS, Latin, pay tuition or move. That is if you aren't in boundary for Deal.
Good luck in those lotteries. I mean it. The Hardy community isn't for you.
Anonymous
11/11/2012 21:22
Subject: Deal or Basis for DCs? Advice Needed.
Hardy may be OK enough for the OOB families, but there is not enough change in my opinion. The current principal is still unclear on her vision.
Anonymous
11/11/2012 16:42
Subject: Deal or Basis for DCs? Advice Needed.
How many of these 'advanced learners' do you think there are, 13:04, in DC and how do you know they are advanced?
Likely, you will want to use a standardized test to measure (poorly and unreliably) advanced-ness, but which one? DC-CAS? Are there sufficient numbers to justify selective admissions and city wide tracking?
Without the numbers, it would be a hard sell.
Likely, you will want to use a standardized test to measure (poorly and unreliably) advanced-ness, but which one? DC-CAS? Are there sufficient numbers to justify selective admissions and city wide tracking?
Without the numbers, it would be a hard sell.
Anonymous
11/11/2012 15:59
Subject: Deal or Basis for DCs? Advice Needed.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I would agree that if it's only coming from upper NW (otherwise known as Upper Caucasia) it's not going anywhere.
Cheh and Wells are old-fashioned liberals who are no friends of school reform. Grosso has joined Wells. Barry and Bowser care a bit as does Graham. Evans does not know or care much about education and works on the enabling fiscal issues. Orange is in the pocket of the WTU. Alexander is also close to WTU. McDuffie is new and learning but leans to the left
I do not entirely agree with those characterizations, but even if I did, what's your point?
Anonymous
11/11/2012 14:24
Subject: Deal or Basis for DCs? Advice Needed.
Anonymous wrote:I would agree that if it's only coming from upper NW (otherwise known as Upper Caucasia) it's not going anywhere.
Cheh and Wells are old-fashioned liberals who are no friends of school reform. Grosso has joined Wells. Barry and Bowser care a bit as does Graham. Evans does not know or care much about education and works on the enabling fiscal issues. Orange is in the pocket of the WTU. Alexander is also close to WTU. McDuffie is new and learning but leans to the left
Anonymous
11/11/2012 13:27
Subject: Deal or Basis for DCs? Advice Needed.
I would agree that if it's only coming from upper NW (otherwise known as Upper Caucasia) it's not going anywhere.
Anonymous
11/11/2012 13:04
Subject: Deal or Basis for DCs? Advice Needed.
What I'd like to see public school parents of advanced learners do is to move beyond the "we're going to turn this or that school around" approach to reform in favor of thinking in terms of organizing, like the MoCo parents do, to vote candidates supporting a pro-academic tracking policy and curriculae in and out. The DCPS-DC charter divide need not pose an obstacle to systemic change.
If Ward 6 parents were, for example, to put the heat on Wells to offer the sort of pulllout groups that Brent is running at Watkins and Tyler, as well as honors classes beyond 8th grade algebra, at Stuart Hobson, other DC Council Members might take notice. And if a potent city-wide coaltion for MS ability grouping were to emerge, the Council couldn't ignore it. As demand for public school challenge increases steadily with ever greater middle-class participation, supply must follow suit or politicians will go down over the matter eventually.
A test-in DCPS MS would be welcome anytime, as would amending the DC charter law to permit selective admissions. I don't think that it would be too late to start a DCPS test-in MS, even five years from now, if standards were high enough (e.g. the MoCo schools taking less than 20% of applicants), partly because the charters can only do so much to provide challenge via lottery admissions. If lottery admissions were optimal in providing challenge to advanced learners, cities with higher-performing school systems than ours--NYC, Boston, Chicago etc.--would surely have embraced them system-wide long ago. Thoughts?
^ Point taken, pp, but without TAG programs in the elementary grades, finding an acceptable pro rata of competitive low-SES (both AA and Latino) kids to fill seats in a DCPS test-in MS will be all but impossible, no? Therein lies the danger for the pols, allow such a program to go forward without necessarily having anywhere to take cover when the cohort served is largely white. Maybe a K-12 GT coalition is what's needed, with home-grown ES TAG in diverse schools like Brent as a stepping stone. It is exciting that elementary challenge is spilling out of Wards 2 and 3. The Gtown and Friendship Heights parents clearly need the Hill, Columbia Heights, Brookland etc. to make common cause to advance a city-wide agenda for advanced learners. Basis & Latin can only do so much on their own!
Anonymous
11/11/2012 11:27
Subject: Deal or Basis for DCs? Advice Needed.
Anonymous wrote:
Not too long ago the only decent MSs were Deal and Hardy, and there was a realistic chance to get in to Deal OOB. Now, Deal is full and Rhee destroyed Hardy.
Um, I think you might want to visit Hardy today. Rhee is gone and has been for awhile now. The new, highly experienced principal is in year 2. The arts program is very much intact and a new enrichment program is in place for those who are seeking academic challenge. Many Stoddert and Hyde parents are taking a serious look at the school now that the Deal option is closed to them.
There's an open house November 13 if you are interested.
Anonymous
11/11/2012 10:29
Subject: Deal or Basis for DCs? Advice Needed.
Anonymous wrote:08:41 again
I didn't get the impression she was saying that a handful of Hill parents in and of themselves would do something that a generation of Ward 3 parents did not.
I think she might have been suggesting that the pressures inside of DCPS may have changed.
Not too long ago the only decent MSs were Deal and Hardy, and there was a realistic chance to get in to Deal OOB. Now, Deal is full and Rhee destroyed Hardy.
Meanwhile, Latin came in and stole some of the spotlight, Basis just opened, and DCI is on the horizon. This may be DCPS's last chance to produce an MS (aside from Deal) that attracts a critical mass of middle/upper-middle class parents.
If a test-in or magnet type MS is the only way to do it, there might be some support across the city (not just in Ward 3) for the concept. But, if it doesn't happen soon, it may be too late. Once enough parents are invested in alternatives (Latin, Basis, DCI), it will probably be too late to bring them back into the DCPS fold.
I'm the Brent parent who opened this line of discussion. Yes, I am suggesting that broad-based change is afoot on the ability grouping front, but only in the nascent sense. The fact that DCPS has allowed Brent to hire a part-time math teacher with PTA funds to provide challenge for advanced learners is significant because it probably bodes well for tracking further up the line, at Stuart Hobson and elsewhere. It certainly doesn't hurt that Latin and Basis, particularly the latter, are tracking more assertively than DCPS middle schools have done since the 70s.
What I'd like to see public school parents of advanced learners do is to move beyond the "we're going to turn this or that school around" approach to reform in favor of thinking in terms of organizing, like the MoCo parents do, to vote candidates supporting a pro-academic tracking policy and curriculae in and out. The DCPS-DC charter divide need not pose an obstacle to systemic change.
If Ward 6 parents were, for example, to put the heat on Wells to offer the sort of pulllout groups that Brent is running at Watkins and Tyler, as well as honors classes beyond 8th grade algebra, at Stuart Hobson, other DC Council Members might take notice. And if a potent city-wide coaltion for MS ability grouping were to emerge, the Council couldn't ignore it. As demand for public school challenge increases steadily with ever greater middle-class participation, supply must follow suit or politicians will go down over the matter eventually.
A test-in DCPS MS would be welcome anytime, as would amending the DC charter law to permit selective admissions. I don't think that it would be too late to start a DCPS test-in MS, even five years from now, if standards were high enough (e.g. the MoCo schools taking less than 20% of applicants), partly because the charters can only do so much to provide challenge via lottery admissions. If lottery admissions were optimal in providing challenge to advanced learners, cities with higher-performing school systems than ours--NYC, Boston, Chicago etc.--would surely have embraced them system-wide long ago. Thoughts?
Anonymous
11/10/2012 20:14
Subject: Deal or Basis for DCs? Advice Needed.
Anonymous wrote:08:41 again
I didn't get the impression she was saying that a handful of Hill parents in and of themselves would do something that a generation of Ward 3 parents did not.
I think she might have been suggesting that the pressures inside of DCPS may have changed.
Not too long ago the only decent MSs were Deal and Hardy, and there was a realistic chance to get in to Deal OOB. Now, Deal is full and Rhee destroyed Hardy.
Meanwhile, Latin came in and stole some of the spotlight, Basis just opened, and DCI is on the horizon. This may be DCPS's last chance to produce an MS (aside from Deal) that attracts a critical mass of middle/upper-middle class parents.
If a test-in or magnet type MS is the only way to do it, there might be some support across the city (not just in Ward 3) for the concept. But, if it doesn't happen soon, it may be too late. Once enough parents are invested in alternatives (Latin, Basis, DCI), it will probably be too late to bring them back into the DCPS fold.
Latin is having some real success for middle and upper-middle class kids and those from all over DC but more quality seats are needed at more schools like Latin. We need a larger program there and more schools which are heads down in DC and not just trying to expand into the next state that approves charters.
Anonymous
11/10/2012 09:18
Subject: Deal or Basis for DCs? Advice Needed.
08:41 again
I didn't get the impression she was saying that a handful of Hill parents in and of themselves would do something that a generation of Ward 3 parents did not.
I think she might have been suggesting that the pressures inside of DCPS may have changed.
Not too long ago the only decent MSs were Deal and Hardy, and there was a realistic chance to get in to Deal OOB. Now, Deal is full and Rhee destroyed Hardy.
Meanwhile, Latin came in and stole some of the spotlight, Basis just opened, and DCI is on the horizon. This may be DCPS's last chance to produce an MS (aside from Deal) that attracts a critical mass of middle/upper-middle class parents.
If a test-in or magnet type MS is the only way to do it, there might be some support across the city (not just in Ward 3) for the concept. But, if it doesn't happen soon, it may be too late. Once enough parents are invested in alternatives (Latin, Basis, DCI), it will probably be too late to bring them back into the DCPS fold.
I didn't get the impression she was saying that a handful of Hill parents in and of themselves would do something that a generation of Ward 3 parents did not.
I think she might have been suggesting that the pressures inside of DCPS may have changed.
Not too long ago the only decent MSs were Deal and Hardy, and there was a realistic chance to get in to Deal OOB. Now, Deal is full and Rhee destroyed Hardy.
Meanwhile, Latin came in and stole some of the spotlight, Basis just opened, and DCI is on the horizon. This may be DCPS's last chance to produce an MS (aside from Deal) that attracts a critical mass of middle/upper-middle class parents.
If a test-in or magnet type MS is the only way to do it, there might be some support across the city (not just in Ward 3) for the concept. But, if it doesn't happen soon, it may be too late. Once enough parents are invested in alternatives (Latin, Basis, DCI), it will probably be too late to bring them back into the DCPS fold.
Anonymous
11/10/2012 08:41
Subject: Deal or Basis for DCs? Advice Needed.
Perhaps the PP is trying to suggest there might now be a broader base of public support than just Ward 3?