Do not hesitate to get help. I'm SO GLAD that folks with similar experiences have offered recommendations to you! Please call them, meet them, find the one that suits you and your child best. I'll tell ya, I have two friends who had very difficult relationships with their preschool children. It was only after they sought professional help that their children got the parenting that they needed: it was a family-wide effort.

They're doing great now.

Dr Dan Shapiro...very very sim story, and I have a 4 yr old boy and a 2.5 yr old boy. So far he is the best I have ever been too, and he also does a class for parents of difficult children. I cried when I realized how many other parents had the same situations ( none of my friends did). Best thing we have ever done for or 4yr old

OP, How are you guys doing?

I second or third the rec for the book, The Difficult Child.

Also, Dr. Neal Horen at Georgetown is terrific and works with the Ross Greene/Explosive Child method. Kids love him and he's parent friendly too.

I 2nd sleep deprivation. My super intense kids sleep 10.5-11 hours per night. How do I accomplish this? Blackout curtains & I or DH lay with them until they fall asleep. On their own they'd be up until 10, I know from experience. To me, the need for sleep overrides my desire that they wind down on their own. My kids just don't have that ability yet. Might be worth a try. I know that if my kids are under rested, not eating enough, & too much screen time (hard limit at 2 hours per day) they become completely different people.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Lights out 8:30, asleep by 9. Awake between 6:15-7. It actually varies a lot, and she used to be more consistent. Until February she was lights out 7:30 but started waking at 5:30. After 6 weeks of that, we just decided to go with DST and her old 7:30 bedtime became 8:30 and at least she was sleeping past 6. DH and I are not early risers.

OP FWIW this is my 4yo's schedule, except he naps at school for about an hour, and on weekends when he doesn't nap, he goes to bed a bit earlier (asleep by 8/8:30). He has slept 11-12 hours maybe 3 times in his life? So I don't know that for sure sleep is an issue, although a balance of active vs. downtime might help. Meaning, have her watch TV for 30-45 minutes to sit still and recharge. We have to do this with my 4yo or he runs himself ragged.

Thanks PP. We had lights out by 8 last night, took her 45 minutes to fall asleep, and she was wide awake at 6:15. 9.5 hours of sleep. This is fairly typical these days and I don't really see how I can change it (unless her ped discovers a vitamin difficiency or something. Oddly, she did sleep 11-12 hours at night the first 3 years of her life, less as she was dropping her nap, but then back to 12 when she first dropped her nap.

I think obsessing over things I can't control only worsens my anxiety, so I probably shouldn't fixate on it too much unless the ped thinks it can be improved.

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Lights out 8:30, asleep by 9. Awake between 6:15-7. It actually varies a lot, and she used to be more consistent. Until February she was lights out 7:30 but started waking at 5:30. After 6 weeks of that, we just decided to go with DST and her old 7:30 bedtime became 8:30 and at least she was sleeping past 6. DH and I are not early risers.

OP FWIW this is my 4yo's schedule, except he naps at school for about an hour, and on weekends when he doesn't nap, he goes to bed a bit earlier (asleep by 8/8:30). He has slept 11-12 hours maybe 3 times in his life? So I don't know that for sure sleep is an issue, although a balance of active vs. downtime might help. Meaning, have her watch TV for 30-45 minutes to sit still and recharge. We have to do this with my 4yo or he runs himself ragged.

OP I haven't read any of the previous posts but wanted to suggest The Floortime Center in Bethesda which is starting a new program for children who have issues similar to your child. They are opening up a therapeutic program for children who have compliance issues, emotional and regulatory issues, and problems with transitions. Sounds like your daughter. I would call them and get an eval from them and if she is a candidate for the program, it may be worth it to make the drive to Betheda.

The people who are saying the OP spoils her DD and that the DD is just a brat are CLUELESS. OP, you should move over to the Special Needs Forum because most of the posters here have no clue what they are talking about. Regular parenting techniques do not work with these kids. These posters saying these things wouldn't last a day with my DS!

7:43 PP here with similar 4 DS and major sleep and diet issue. I'm not saying your DD has the issues mine does but if the sleep issues are even somewhat similar the advice to just "put her to bed earlier" is well intentioned but difficult to implement. I can put my DS to bed at any time I want and let him cry if I want...he still falls asleep at the same time. We have other issues with sleep too, but I decided to take him to the Children's sleep clinic and the doctor said NOT to just all of a sudden force an early bedtime when clearly DC is having issues. There are lots of things to look at and evaluate, but even if you think DD has no issues you still need to change the dynamic around bedtime slowly. She actually has us putting DS to bed LATER so that he IS tired and falls asleep quickly. This method reduces HIS stress around sleeping and starts to create positive sleep associations. Then gradually move bedtime earlier and introduce new methods like "checks" or sitting by the door. Again, I'm not saying your DD has all the issues my DS does but I think if you really suspect sleep issues, you should be careful to choose methods that work for your particular problem or child.

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Lights out 8:30, asleep by 9. Awake between 6:15-7. It actually varies a lot, and she used to be more consistent. Until February she was lights out 7:30 but started waking at 5:30. After 6 weeks of that, we just decided to go with DST and her old 7:30 bedtime became 8:30 and at least she was sleeping past 6. DH and I are not early risers.

11:00 PP here. My kids aren't allowed out of their rooms until 7:00 not matter what time they wake up (except to go to the bathroom). They get up and play in their rooms until the clock says 7:00. When they were 2-3 and too young to know numbers we had a light in their room that turned blue at 7:00 then they knew it was time to come out. I too am not a morning person and I am not dealing with kids before 7!

My 4 yr old sleeps 2 hours a night more than your DD and would be a monster on 2 less hours of sleep a night. It took a lot of work to get her sleeping by 7:00 - she would love to stay up later but I am a big stickler for sleep due to the behavior/ learning / health problems related to poor or insufficient sleep.

Can you tire her out ore during the day then see if you can move to an earlier bedtime?

OP here. Lights out 8:30, asleep by 9. Awake between 6:15-7. It actually varies a lot, and she used to be more consistent. Until February she was lights out 7:30 but started waking at 5:30. After 6 weeks of that, we just decided to go with DST and her old 7:30 bedtime became 8:30 and at least she was sleeping past 6. DH and I are not early risers.

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I am definitely going to look into seeing someone myself. Worrying about all of this definitely consumes me these days. I will also talk to her ped about low iron/melatonin.

We've tried putting her to bed early on rough days, but just lays awake in her room until her usual bedtime, and sometimes falls asleep even later. If she does fall asleep early, she just wakes up early. I still do think she's tired, just don't know what to do about it.

Rough days can mean she is wound up, making it harder to go to sleep. I would consistently on every day put her to bed earlier. My 4 yr old is in bed by 7:00 and gets up about 6:30. She doesn't nap. On rough days she often is awake until 8 as it takes her more time to unwind and fall asleep.

What time is she going to bed and waking up?

I would move bedtime earlier in 10-15 minute increments then stay at the desired time for at least two weeks to get a feel for it. Her body needs time to adapt to a new sleep routine.

Definitely get iron levels checked.

OP here. I am definitely going to look into seeing someone myself. Worrying about all of this definitely consumes me these days. I will also talk to her ped about low iron/melatonin.

We've tried putting her to bed early on rough days, but just lays awake in her room until her usual bedtime, and sometimes falls asleep even later. If she does fall asleep early, she just wakes up early. I still do think she's tired, just don't know what to do about it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Family physician here (and mom of 3 under the age of 5 yrs). She is sleep deprived. Falling asleep in the car after 10-15 mins is a sure sign. 4 yr olds need 11-13hrs of sleep. Start putting her to bed earlier or reinstating naptime. This will be difficult, but totally doable. Her behavior change will be miraculous

Competely agree with this one!

What we did at that age was books on tape. DD had to lie down with her head on the pillow and listen to the story. Five days out of seven she'd fall asleep.

I recently read The 7:00 Bedtime and started putting my kids to bed WAY earlier. I bumped bedtime back 15 min per night. For DS who has trouble falling asleep we started the TJ low dose melatonin chewables about 30 min before bedtime. The difference in everyone's moods and cope level is remarkable.

We do protein snacks about ever 2-3 hours too. One of my kids tends to get lowish blood sugar and becomes a nightmare.

Head off as much as you can. Also, my ENT said that if you can hear them breathe at night, not just snore, to do a sleep study. If you don't get restful sleep it causes symptoms like ADD and ODD.

I do think that you should try reading The Difficult Child and consider some kind of low dose antidepressant or really regular downtime with exercise for yourself. You need to be way less reactive for her behavior to change. That book was a lifesaver for me.

OP, I only just saw this post and reading through it, I agree with so much of what some posters have suggested.

I see you already listed "Explosive Child" as one book you had read, applied, but didn't see much change? But I still think it sounds lie your daughter may be lacking in some executive function skills, especially the ability to switch gears (when she expects to be able to push the elevator button, or has her mind set on having waffles for breakfast, only all the waffles are gone) and to regulate her temper as a result.

The idea that she can behave appropriately when she is in school but not at home doesn't necessarily mean that the problem is with you and how you approach her. A child can have a great deal of difficulty switching gears at preschool, too, but holds it all in until she gets home, and then EXPLODES onto you, her safe haven. She's used up all her coping mechanisms at school, and has absolutely nothing left for when she is home. This reaction will be worse, the worse the environment is for her at school ( if it is easier for her to cope there, she'll explode less at home).

If the above is indeed what is going on with your child, I know it is hard, but please try to see it as one bright spot and hope for the future. If your child is having trouble coping (switching gears, managing temper) at school but IS managing to hold it all in while there -- then as she gets older hopefully things will improve. Meanwhile you can be working with her to learn how to switch gears, etc.

SOmeone earlier posted that everything you listed sounded like exactly what her 2 year old was going through and I think that might be about right -- your child might be delayed in certain executive functions and might be operating on the level of a 2.5 year old. If so, then you might be able to use the General Parenting suggestions for how to deal with a 2.5 year old instead of trying to treat her (right now) like a preschooler.

I agree with other people's suggestions too, to look into sleep a LOT. DO whatever you can to improve her sleep.

It is definitely true for my own child that eating artificial dyes, preservatives, and flavorings make him more prone to reacting explosively, and make it much harder for him to switch gears. Eliminating EVERY piece of artificial anything from the diet has improved his ability to cope tremendously.

I don't think regular parenting classes or family therapy will be of much use to you, personally, but probably can't hurt except that you probably don't have the time or energy right now to spend on things that won't have immediate feedback.

Getting her outside a lot might be useful.

Parenting your difficult child class might be very useful.

GOod LUCK!