Anonymous
Post 03/06/2012 09:08     Subject: Boss-led "fellowship" with prayer "...in Jesus Christ, our lord's name Amen"
Totally unprofessional! The workplace isn't the place. I hate when anyone mentions religion at all. Period.
Anonymous
Post 03/06/2012 09:08     Subject: Boss-led "fellowship" with prayer "...in Jesus Christ, our lord's name Amen"
One last thing: I did not take it as "optional" at all. This is what everyone was doing. Maybe in the future I could stay away, but b/c of the race/education/cultural difference, it might possibly look like I'm shunning everyone, which is not going to be good.
Anonymous
Post 03/06/2012 09:06     Subject: Boss-led "fellowship" with prayer "...in Jesus Christ, our lord's name Amen"
Anonymous wrote:8:41 again.

I worked for a nice muslim man for a few years. Can you imagine how apalling it would have been if he asked me to bow down and pray to Mecca, ever? And how politically awful it would have been for me to have to refuse??? Do conservatives really want workplaces where a boss feels it's OK to do that? OH, I remember - you want the only prayer in the workplace to be Christian prayer since America, after all, was founded as a Christian theocracy

Also, I AM a wiccan. I am also a senior level employee where I work. Do you think it would be OK for me to have a staff meeting and invoke the four directions, cast a circle, light some incense, and ask my staff to go along? Clearly, NOT OK. To me being asked to participate in a Christian prayer is just as weird, with (some sects) mock eating of blood and flesh and a tortured man on a stake held out for worship, even before your youngest children. To my mind, sick and twisted. No Wiccan I know is into that weird shit.

People in positions where they have power over others in the workplace should not be allowed - subtly or explicitly - to ask you to pray their way (or at all) because it creates a very strong potential for discrimination. Even if you can't prove it, it's still there. It would be like your boss soliciting for donations to the Republican - or Democratic - party. How would you feel if asked to contribute to a party you revile, but know that you would have to out yourself politically with your boss? Leaving you with a choice to give money to say, Obama - or stick by your principles and possible have your career suffer for it?



+1
Anonymous
Post 03/06/2012 09:06     Subject: Boss-led "fellowship" with prayer "...in Jesus Christ, our lord's name Amen"
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Not PP, but how is it hypocritical? She respects their right to believe. She doesn't have to respect the beliefs themselves. I also think most forms of religion are weird (to say the least) but I respect people's right to their beliefs.


Because this is a deliberate finger -- it's totally gratuitous, has nothing to do with the thread topic, but she knows christians are on DCUM, so she thought she'd give them the finger, just for fun.

I don't care what she says about christians, FWIW. But she's an immature jerk. Doesn't speak well of Wicca. I can't believe she's in HR.
Anonymous
Post 03/06/2012 09:05     Subject: Boss-led "fellowship" with prayer "...in Jesus Christ, our lord's name Amen"
Anonymous wrote:OP here: I think the prayer in the name of "Jesus Christ ... blah, blah" kind of rubs me wrong more than something like the pledge of allegiance, and particularly because the praying was directed by my supervisor (like, let's all bow our heads and pray...).

I've never been asked to pray at work in any way that made me uncomfortable. (It's possible that there was a more generic prayer/statement before "holiday" parties at past offices, but never Jesus centered b/c many people were Jewish).

(I am 100% certain that the co-worker was not "donating" the food b/c it was a sizable amount of food and she is not making more than GS-9 or 11. I also think they would have mentioned that when I asked who brought the food and I commented on how much there was and how much work it must have taken. The response I got was "XX has a catering business." People with catering businesses don't give food away.)

I was just wondering about whether other people would have felt as uncomfortable as I did or whether I am over-sensitive to this.


OP, I would've felt very uncomfortable and more than a little coerced.
Anonymous
Post 03/06/2012 09:04     Subject: Boss-led "fellowship" with prayer "...in Jesus Christ, our lord's name Amen"
OP here: I think the prayer in the name of "Jesus Christ ... blah, blah" kind of rubs me wrong more than something like the pledge of allegiance, and particularly because the praying was directed by my supervisor (like, let's all bow our heads and pray...).

I've never been asked to pray at work in any way that made me uncomfortable. (It's possible that there was a more generic prayer/statement before "holiday" parties at past offices, but never Jesus centered b/c many people were Jewish).

(I am 100% certain that the co-worker was not "donating" the food b/c it was a sizable amount of food and she is not making more than GS-9 or 11. I also think they would have mentioned that when I asked who brought the food and I commented on how much there was and how much work it must have taken. The response I got was "XX has a catering business." People with catering businesses don't give food away.)

I was just wondering about whether other people would have felt as uncomfortable as I did or whether I am over-sensitive to this.
Anonymous
Post 03/06/2012 09:04     Subject: Re:Boss-led "fellowship" with prayer "...in Jesus Christ, our lord's name Amen"
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:8:41 again.

I worked for a nice muslim man for a few years. Can you imagine how apalling it would have been if he asked me to bow down and pray to Mecca, ever? And how politically awful it would have been for me to have to refuse??? Do conservatives really want workplaces where a boss feels it's OK to do that? OH, I remember - you want the only prayer in the workplace to be Christian prayer since America, after all, was founded as a Christian theocracy

Also, I AM a wiccan. I am also a senior level employee where I work. Do you think it would be OK for me to have a staff meeting and invoke the four directions, cast a circle, light some incense, and ask my staff to go along? Clearly, NOT OK. To me being asked to participate in a Christian prayer is just as weird, with (some sects) mock eating of blood and flesh and a tortured man on a stake held out for worship, even before your youngest children. To my mind, sick and twisted. No Wiccan I know is into that weird shit.

People in positions where they have power over others in the workplace should not be allowed - subtly or explicitly - to ask you to pray their way (or at all) because it creates a very strong potential for discrimination. Even if you can't prove it, it's still there. It would be like your boss soliciting for donations to the Republican - or Democratic - party. How would you feel if asked to contribute to a party you revile, but know that you would have to out yourself politically with your boss? Leaving you with a choice to give money to say, Obama - or stick by your principles and possible have your career suffer for it?



The soliciting for donations scenario you describe would be a violation of the Hatch Act so it's not the same thing as an employee leading a prayer before breakfast.


EXACTLY. There is a reason this is illegal. As it should be. And it is absolutely a comparable emotional and consequential situation that is very similar to the prayer scenario. Religion and politics should not be issues in the workplace. And I add this: ."Although freedom of conscience and the freedom to believe are absolute, the freedom to act is not." - Chief Justice of California Roger J. Traynor, 1955
Believe what you want. You cross the line when you inflict it upon others (IMHO)


Well, when the OP further clarified that it wasn't the supervisor leading the prayer at this optional event, that made it appear less coercive. I agree in principle that it's uncomfortable to have a sectarian prayer before breakfast in the office, but per the White House directive linked earlier in the thread it doesn't seem to be an act that appears to be officially endorsed with the combination of an optional breakfast + employee and not supervisor leading the prayer.
Anonymous
Post 03/06/2012 09:03     Subject: Boss-led "fellowship" with prayer "...in Jesus Christ, our lord's name Amen"
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:



OP's problems aside -- you're in HR, and you're this intolerant of somebody else's beliefs? I'm flabergasted.
Not intolerant at all. I respect their right to believe what they want. To me it's weird and bizarre. But I'm cool with it, as long as they don't force it on me.


Obviously you're a total hypocrite. Obviously it's hypocritical to say "I respect their right to believe what they want" and then go on to trash everything they believe.

It speaks really poorly of you as a person, Wiccan or whatever you are. And people like you are why DCUM is sometimes a cesspool of intolerance.


Not PP, but how is it hypocritical? She respects their right to believe. She doesn't have to respect the beliefs themselves. I also think most forms of religion are weird (to say the least) but I respect people's right to their beliefs.
Anonymous
Post 03/06/2012 09:02     Subject: Boss-led "fellowship" with prayer "...in Jesus Christ, our lord's name Amen"
If she also calls herself pagan here occasionally, she's a complete a$$. I'm glad I don't know her in person.
Anonymous
Post 03/06/2012 09:01     Subject: Boss-led "fellowship" with prayer "...in Jesus Christ, our lord's name Amen"
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:8:41 again.

I worked for a nice muslim man for a few years. Can you imagine how apalling it would have been if he asked me to bow down and pray to Mecca, ever? And how politically awful it would have been for me to have to refuse??? Do conservatives really want workplaces where a boss feels it's OK to do that? OH, I remember - you want the only prayer in the workplace to be Christian prayer since America, after all, was founded as a Christian theocracy

Also, I AM a wiccan. I am also a senior level employee where I work. Do you think it would be OK for me to have a staff meeting and invoke the four directions, cast a circle, light some incense, and ask my staff to go along? Clearly, NOT OK. To me being asked to participate in a Christian prayer is just as weird, with (some sects) mock eating of blood and flesh and a tortured man on a stake held out for worship, even before your youngest children. To my mind, sick and twisted. No Wiccan I know is into that weird shit.

People in positions where they have power over others in the workplace should not be allowed - subtly or explicitly - to ask you to pray their way (or at all) because it creates a very strong potential for discrimination. Even if you can't prove it, it's still there. It would be like your boss soliciting for donations to the Republican - or Democratic - party. How would you feel if asked to contribute to a party you revile, but know that you would have to out yourself politically with your boss? Leaving you with a choice to give money to say, Obama - or stick by your principles and possible have your career suffer for it?



OP's problems aside -- you're in HR, and you're this intolerant of somebody else's beliefs? I'm flabergasted.
Not intolerant at all. I respect their right to believe what they want. To me it's weird and bizarre. But I'm cool with it, as long as they don't force it on me.


Ooops, let's make this completely clear:

Obviously you're a total hypocrite. Obviously it's hypocritical to say "I respect their right to believe what they want" and then go on to trash everything they believe.

It speaks really poorly of you as a person, Wiccan or whatever you are. And people like you are why DCUM is sometimes a cesspool of intolerance.

Anonymous
Post 03/06/2012 09:00     Subject: Boss-led "fellowship" with prayer "...in Jesus Christ, our lord's name Amen"
Anonymous wrote:



OP's problems aside -- you're in HR, and you're this intolerant of somebody else's beliefs? I'm flabergasted.
Not intolerant at all. I respect their right to believe what they want. To me it's weird and bizarre. But I'm cool with it, as long as they don't force it on me.


Obviously you're a total hypocrite. Obviously it's hypocritical to say "I respect their right to believe what they want" and then go on to trash everything they believe.

It speaks really poorly of you as a person, Wiccan or whatever you are. And people like you are why DCUM is sometimes a cesspool of intolerance.
Anonymous
Post 03/06/2012 08:57     Subject: Boss-led "fellowship" with prayer "...in Jesus Christ, our lord's name Amen"
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:8:41 again.

I worked for a nice muslim man for a few years. Can you imagine how apalling it would have been if he asked me to bow down and pray to Mecca, ever? And how politically awful it would have been for me to have to refuse??? Do conservatives really want workplaces where a boss feels it's OK to do that? OH, I remember - you want the only prayer in the workplace to be Christian prayer since America, after all, was founded as a Christian theocracy

Also, I AM a wiccan. I am also a senior level employee where I work. Do you think it would be OK for me to have a staff meeting and invoke the four directions, cast a circle, light some incense, and ask my staff to go along? Clearly, NOT OK. To me being asked to participate in a Christian prayer is just as weird, with (some sects) mock eating of blood and flesh and a tortured man on a stake held out for worship, even before your youngest children. To my mind, sick and twisted. No Wiccan I know is into that weird shit.

People in positions where they have power over others in the workplace should not be allowed - subtly or explicitly - to ask you to pray their way (or at all) because it creates a very strong potential for discrimination. Even if you can't prove it, it's still there. It would be like your boss soliciting for donations to the Republican - or Democratic - party. How would you feel if asked to contribute to a party you revile, but know that you would have to out yourself politically with your boss? Leaving you with a choice to give money to say, Obama - or stick by your principles and possible have your career suffer for it?



OP's problems aside -- you're in HR, and you're this intolerant of somebody else's beliefs? I'm flabergasted.
Not intolerant at all. I respect their right to believe what they want. To me it's weird and bizarre. But I'm cool with it, as long as they don't force it on me.
Anonymous
Post 03/06/2012 08:56     Subject: Boss-led "fellowship" with prayer "...in Jesus Christ, our lord's name Amen"
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:8:41 again.

I worked for a nice muslim man for a few years. Can you imagine how apalling it would have been if he asked me to bow down and pray to Mecca, ever? And how politically awful it would have been for me to have to refuse??? Do conservatives really want workplaces where a boss feels it's OK to do that? OH, I remember - you want the only prayer in the workplace to be Christian prayer since America, after all, was founded as a Christian theocracy

Also, I AM a wiccan. I am also a senior level employee where I work. Do you think it would be OK for me to have a staff meeting and invoke the four directions, cast a circle, light some incense, and ask my staff to go along? Clearly, NOT OK. To me being asked to participate in a Christian prayer is just as weird, with (some sects) mock eating of blood and flesh and a tortured man on a stake held out for worship, even before your youngest children. To my mind, sick and twisted. No Wiccan I know is into that weird shit.

People in positions where they have power over others in the workplace should not be allowed - subtly or explicitly - to ask you to pray their way (or at all) because it creates a very strong potential for discrimination. Even if you can't prove it, it's still there. It would be like your boss soliciting for donations to the Republican - or Democratic - party. How would you feel if asked to contribute to a party you revile, but know that you would have to out yourself politically with your boss? Leaving you with a choice to give money to say, Obama - or stick by your principles and possible have your career suffer for it?



The soliciting for donations scenario you describe would be a violation of the Hatch Act so it's not the same thing as an employee leading a prayer before breakfast.


EXACTLY. There is a reason this is illegal. As it should be. And it is absolutely a comparable emotional and consequential situation that is very similar to the prayer scenario. Religion and politics should not be issues in the workplace. And I add this: ."Although freedom of conscience and the freedom to believe are absolute, the freedom to act is not." - Chief Justice of California Roger J. Traynor, 1955
Believe what you want. You cross the line when you inflict it upon others (IMHO)
Anonymous
Post 03/06/2012 08:55     Subject: Boss-led "fellowship" with prayer "...in Jesus Christ, our lord's name Amen"
Anonymous wrote:8:41 again.

I worked for a nice muslim man for a few years. Can you imagine how apalling it would have been if he asked me to bow down and pray to Mecca, ever? And how politically awful it would have been for me to have to refuse??? Do conservatives really want workplaces where a boss feels it's OK to do that? OH, I remember - you want the only prayer in the workplace to be Christian prayer since America, after all, was founded as a Christian theocracy

Also, I AM a wiccan. I am also a senior level employee where I work. Do you think it would be OK for me to have a staff meeting and invoke the four directions, cast a circle, light some incense, and ask my staff to go along? Clearly, NOT OK. To me being asked to participate in a Christian prayer is just as weird, with (some sects) mock eating of blood and flesh and a tortured man on a stake held out for worship, even before your youngest children. To my mind, sick and twisted. No Wiccan I know is into that weird shit.

People in positions where they have power over others in the workplace should not be allowed - subtly or explicitly - to ask you to pray their way (or at all) because it creates a very strong potential for discrimination. Even if you can't prove it, it's still there. It would be like your boss soliciting for donations to the Republican - or Democratic - party. How would you feel if asked to contribute to a party you revile, but know that you would have to out yourself politically with your boss? Leaving you with a choice to give money to say, Obama - or stick by your principles and possible have your career suffer for it?



OP's problems aside -- you're in HR, and you're this intolerant of somebody else's beliefs? I'm flabergasted.
Anonymous
Post 03/06/2012 08:51     Subject: Boss-led "fellowship" with prayer "...in Jesus Christ, our lord's name Amen"
Anonymous wrote:8:41 again.

I worked for a nice muslim man for a few years. Can you imagine how apalling it would have been if he asked me to bow down and pray to Mecca, ever? And how politically awful it would have been for me to have to refuse??? Do conservatives really want workplaces where a boss feels it's OK to do that? OH, I remember - you want the only prayer in the workplace to be Christian prayer since America, after all, was founded as a Christian theocracy

Also, I AM a wiccan. I am also a senior level employee where I work. Do you think it would be OK for me to have a staff meeting and invoke the four directions, cast a circle, light some incense, and ask my staff to go along? Clearly, NOT OK. To me being asked to participate in a Christian prayer is just as weird, with (some sects) mock eating of blood and flesh and a tortured man on a stake held out for worship, even before your youngest children. To my mind, sick and twisted. No Wiccan I know is into that weird shit.

People in positions where they have power over others in the workplace should not be allowed - subtly or explicitly - to ask you to pray their way (or at all) because it creates a very strong potential for discrimination. Even if you can't prove it, it's still there. It would be like your boss soliciting for donations to the Republican - or Democratic - party. How would you feel if asked to contribute to a party you revile, but know that you would have to out yourself politically with your boss? Leaving you with a choice to give money to say, Obama - or stick by your principles and possible have your career suffer for it?



The soliciting for donations scenario you describe would be a violation of the Hatch Act so it's not the same thing as an employee leading a prayer before breakfast.