those ward 3 parents who opt into Basis, Latin, etc are doing a service to OOB kids, who can access the freed-up spaces

But the complaint the PP is making is not specific to charter schools. There are lots of ways to educate your kids in DCPS that give a leg up to more motivated, savvy parents. Lots of parents work the OOB system, including figuring out how to enroll a child in an OOB school in time to feed to a better middle or high school. Lots of DCPS programs have special admissions requirements or otherwise result in a non-random selection of parents. Back when we were looking for a school for our older child, for example, it was common knowledge that the Montessory program (then at Watkins, now at Logan) had an interview requirement and used non-random, non-lottery selection precisely in order to cherry-pick the student body. I'm sure lots of other examples are out there. Hell, just the ability to transport your child to an OOB school or arrange for them to get there requires a level of planning, work, financial resources, etc., that are not there for a number of FARMS families. You can't pin charters alone for this.

Thank you 15:22. Well said.

Nobody hates Latin for their rigorous curriculum and decent test scores. The concern is that they subtly, rather than overtly, favor a certain group of people and harm the quality of public education for others.

The default of charters like Latin is that inherently favor a group of parents - the ones that are willing to go the extra mile and have the knowledge to do so to get into Latin. Admissions are inherently biased against parents that are under-educated, have language barriers, or are simply not able to expand their vision to include other schools beyond their neighborhood school. (And for all we know, Latin may subtly pick their parent pool in other ways -- do they do more information sessions in ward 3 than in other wards?)

Regardless of the reason why, the fact remains: you have a citywide public school that does not look like the city.

From the parent perspective, what is wrong with this? Nothing. If you are motivated, educated, etc, you deserve what you can get. But what about the kid perspective? Is it fair that Kid A gets a leg up to go to Latin while Kid B gets stuck in some crappy middle school just because his parents don't speak English? Of course not. That's why there is concern about what charters like this do to to the concept of "public education."

The net result is that these charters harm neighborhood schools - a group of parents that would be otherwise in the neighborhood schools (and yes, I know, some of these parents would not be in the public schools anyway because they would go private or move), and be active and engaged are instead at Latin (and soon enough BASIS).

It may not be anybody's fault. Nobody's a bad person for choosing Latin or BASIS. Nobody has to resent these schools or the parents who send their kids there. But we also shouldn't pretend that their absence does not have an adverse impact on the quality of neighborhood schools.

I agree. It is some twisted thinking to assume that a public school in DC that has a rigorous curriculum and decent test scores is somehow "private school on the public dime"

WHAT? There are some pretty deep-seated assumptions there about what public schools in DC should be. ( i.e. full of poor kids and crappy). Ugly, ugly, ugly. And don't think for a minute that lots of people having that assumption doesn't affect how things end up in reality.

Anonymous wrote:Good schools like Latin, where my child goes, are what keeps my family and our middle class tax dollars in DC. I hate that people feel free to bash those schools for not being poor enough. Why should Latin, Yu Ying, Basis (potentially) be knocked for offering a choice. They have admissions by lottery -- what is unfair about that? It is an open transparent system.

This.

Good schools like Latin, where my child goes, are what keeps my family and our middle class tax dollars in DC. I hate that people feel free to bash those schools for not being poor enough. Why should Latin, Yu Ying, Basis (potentially) be knocked for offering a choice. They have admissions by lottery -- what is unfair about that? It is an open transparent system.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

...

My understanding from the information sessions is that BASIS does not engage in social promotion. Each child must test into the next grade by passing comprehensive exams at the end of the year. If a child is woefully unprepared and cannot be caught up by the support staff, he will spend multiple years in the fifth grade until he either learns what is required for promotion to the sixth grade or withdraws to attend a school that promotes socially.

...

THAT is going to create big, big problems for the school, and very quickly.

The far bigger problem is the status quo.

If kids haven't mastered the material, why should they be allowed to advance?

Social promotion is precisely why we have lots of kids graduating from DC high schools barely literate, barely able to do basic math, woefully underprepared to enter responsible adulthood and the workforce.

You aren't doing kids any favors by giving them a pass on things that they need to know in order to function productively, all it does is pass the problem along and compound it even further.

That is incorrect. The research is quite negative on retention, and/or "test-based" promotion. It's not that anyone is in favor of social promotion, but the data on retention is even worse.

http://www.education.ucsb.edu/jimerson/retention/CSP_RetentionDropout2002.pdf

http://www.cdl.org/resource-library/articles/nasp_position_stmt.php?type=subject&id=10

http://www.cdl.org/resource-library/articles/grade_retention.php

http://www.news.wisc.edu/3389

http://www.nasponline.org/communications/spawareness/Grade%20Retention.pdf

http://edr.sagepub.com/content/39/2/110.abstract

Anonymous wrote:

...

My understanding from the information sessions is that BASIS does not engage in social promotion. Each child must test into the next grade by passing comprehensive exams at the end of the year. If a child is woefully unprepared and cannot be caught up by the support staff, he will spend multiple years in the fifth grade until he either learns what is required for promotion to the sixth grade or withdraws to attend a school that promotes socially.

...

THAT is going to create big, big problems for the school, and very quickly.

The far bigger problem is the status quo.

If kids haven't mastered the material, why should they be allowed to advance?

Social promotion is precisely why we have lots of kids graduating from DC high schools barely literate, barely able to do basic math, woefully underprepared to enter responsible adulthood and the workforce.

You aren't doing kids any favors by giving them a pass on things that they need to know in order to function productively, all it does is pass the problem along and compound it even further.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

No, honestly, a lot of us can afford private and send our kids to private as the default. Our home values don't go down and really never have, so it's not about investment.

Coffee shop chatter up here is that it would be nice to have a very competitive, exam-entrance PUBLIC high school option --- akin to Stuyvesant or T.J. Banneker and SWW sure ain't it. Since Stuyvesant doesn't exist in DC, and it never will because DC's population is 500,000, not 5 million .... we go to GDS.

(full disclosure, our kids go to private but I'm intrigued by BASIS so I'm on this thread. I fear though that BASIS will fall prey to the realities of the DC population and not become Stuyvesant-like, no matter what its curriculum guide states. see, e.g., the 2-track problem at Yu Ying.)

I worry about that problem as well, PP. I'm thinking of taking a chance on BASIS, though.

My understanding from the information sessions is that BASIS does not engage in social promotion. Each child must test into the next grade by passing comprehensive exams at the end of the year. If a child is woefully unprepared and cannot be caught up by the support staff, he will spend multiple years in the fifth grade until he either learns what is required for promotion to the sixth grade or withdraws to attend a school that promotes socially.

Furthermore, although BASIS does not admit students based on the results of admission exams, it does place students based on the results of placement exams. So, if a child applies to BASIS for the seventh grade but is not prepared for the BASIS seventh grade curriculum, he will be placed in the sixth grade or even the fifth grade. I imagine that few families would be wiling to have their child repeat one or two years of school just to attend BASIS.

THAT is going to create big, big problems for the school, and very quickly.

People. Not every grade takes the dc cas. Osse reports on those taking the test ( grades 5 to 8 and grade 10, I believe). The discrepancy makes sense when you factor in that the upper school has a higher percentage of Farms kids than the lower school, but fewer of them are taking the test.

What's with the conspiracy theories and snap judgements that the school most be LYING? You better talk to your therapists about why a school that is open to all children in our city and seems to be providing a half decent education for free causes such anger in you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Amazing what kind of misinformation some people are posting here. Case in point, that Latin only has 10% FARMS. That is simply false, so people should get their facts straight before posting. the following comes directly from the Latin Open House: 30% are FARMS.

Wow, this is fascinating! So the OSSE website reports that only 10% of Latin students taking the DC CAS are FARMS.

The school reports 30%.

That means someone is lying. Or wait, maybe Latin is 30% FARMs and they "encourage" those students not to take the tests?

In the meantime, I'm more inclined to believe OSSE's data unless you can move beyond hearsay from an open house.

Students take the DC-CAS in grades 5, 6, 7, 8, and 10. Grades 9, 11, and 12 do not take the DC-CAS. That may explain some discrepancy between these data, I haven't gone back to look and see which are the full student body and which are students who take this test. I suspect given the school history that grades 11, and 12 have a higher FARMS rate than the lower grades. Full student body would therefore have a higher FARMS rate than tested students.

In other words, both data sets could be true, and no one is lying

Yes, 21:02 is not that bright! OSSE reports the testing grades only and OSSE gets the data from the school, they don't go in independently and get the data, it is self-reported by families and compiled by the school. Think first before you post! They don't encourage grades 9, 11 and 12 to not take a test they are not required to take. The school didn't report 30% FARMs for testing grades, but for the entire population and this data is available from the charter board and the DC school chooser publication.

yes, that makes perfect sense. All the FARMs are in grades 11 and 12. Must be it.

Wonder why the school would report 30% at open houses. That sounds like lying to me.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Amazing what kind of misinformation some people are posting here. Case in point, that Latin only has 10% FARMS. That is simply false, so people should get their facts straight before posting. the following comes directly from the Latin Open House: 30% are FARMS.

Wow, this is fascinating! So the OSSE website reports that only 10% of Latin students taking the DC CAS are FARMS.

The school reports 30%.

That means someone is lying. Or wait, maybe Latin is 30% FARMs and they "encourage" those students not to take the tests?

In the meantime, I'm more inclined to believe OSSE's data unless you can move beyond hearsay from an open house.

Students take the DC-CAS in grades 5, 6, 7, 8, and 10. Grades 9, 11, and 12 do not take the DC-CAS. That may explain some discrepancy between these data, I haven't gone back to look and see which are the full student body and which are students who take this test. I suspect given the school history that grades 11, and 12 have a higher FARMS rate than the lower grades. Full student body would therefore have a higher FARMS rate than tested students.

In other words, both data sets could be true, and no one is lying

Latin lower: 4.6% special ed? That's... remarkable.