I teach in the humanities at the high school/upper school level at a well-regarded/well-known local independent school. I suspect the input of upper school teachers on "profoundly gifted" children isn't as relevant or sought after (most DCUM readers/posters have younger kids, right?) but I'll post for what it's worth. (After chuckling that a "teacher pet peeve" thread got so re-routed into a "gifted" thread.)

Taking the last five years, I've taught two students I'd classify as "profoundly gifted" (colloquially, geniuses). In the humanities, they read the same (advanced) texts as their classmates, and participated in class discussions/activities. I and my colleagues in the humanities often worked with them to find a more challenging paper topic than the norm, for example, and recommended additional texts for their own outside reading. In the math/science science arena, from what I observed/can recall those profoundly gifted students: (1) took the AP track at an earlier age and then worked one-on-one in an independent study setting with the most advanced teachers (Ph.Ds); and (2) were encouraged and mentored by the relevant departments to write and submit papers in significant competitions and/or participate in high level competitions (e.g. Intel Science competition). For the summers, the school facilitated some very substantive and interesting internships for the students with leading minds in their fields of interest.

On the non-academic front, it seemed very healthy socially for the students to play on teams, lead clubs, go to the prom, and otherwise do the classic high school type activities.

I am sure I am biased (I like my school and think it provides a great education) but, for what it's worth, overall these profoundly gifted students seemed throughout their four years to be busy, challenged, engaged, excited about learning, and, most importantly, happy! I can't speak to their experience in younger grades but assume they would not have been at our school for high school/upper school had they and their parents not found the experience in lower grades to be fine.

Anonymous wrote:You still haven't answered the question. What would you do if you found one if these kids in your classroom?

I've seen this happen before in DCUM threads on giftedness. The problem is, you want to talk about something different from what everybody else is talking about--and you're getting huffy at the teachers, but some of them may not even realize you're trying to change the subject.

Everybody else here is talking about gifted/highly gifted kids. When teachers complain about PITA parents who think their kids are "gifted," it's clear to most of us that these are the parents who think their 95th pctile kid is different from all the other kids in the class.

You want to talk about that extreme rarity, the 99.99%, profoundly gifted kid. Fine with me--but you can't just assume everybody understood and followed you, or even wanted to follow you, into a new discussion on PG kids. Instead of getting all aggressive ("you still haven't answered the question") and pasting the "misunderstood victim" sign on your forehead (that letter you posted), why don't you help everybody out by acknowledging that you're asking about a very special case, an extreme rarity. And cut the teachers a break, it's possible some of them have ever even come across a profoundly gifted kid, or maybe once in 5 or 10 years, because as some have pointed out, this kid is probably in a magnet anyway.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You still haven't answered the question. What would you do if you found one if these kids in your classroom?

Treat them with the kindness and respect I try to give to all children. Among other things.

What are the "other things"? Really, it's a question. I think many people try to figure out if the private schools are right for really bright kids, or if public school magnets are really the only good option.

For reference, I tested as having an IQ over 155, after my elementary school teachers didn't even list me as being in the pool of people who should be tested for the gifted and talented program. They told my parents it was because I was so quiet in class. Yes, I was. I was reading with books tucked under my desk.

Anonymous wrote:You still haven't answered the question. What would you do if you found one if these kids in your classroom?

Treat them with the kindness and respect I try to give to all children. Among other things.

NP, independent school teacher here (middle school). The reality is that every school is not a fit for every child. At our school, students do have a wide range of academic abilities, although the range is not as wide as you will see in public schools. I think we do a good job of meeting the needs of our students and some teachers are better at it than others; however, we don't have the same resources as a large public school district in terms of appropriate placements and staffing. For kids on the extreme ends of the spectrum-- either profound learning disabilities or profoundly gifted-- not every independent school is going to meet their needs. For example, a child who is nonverbal, or reading at a 2nd grade level, is not going to succeed in my classroom. I don't have a parapro or teaching partner; I don't have a resource room. A parent of such a child would undoubtedly be counseled to look into a different program.

On the other side of the coin, I don't think it's a poor reflection on my school to say that if I have a 7th grader who is doing college level calculus, I probably am not going to meet the needs of that child in my classroom. It's just not feasible to create a college course in mathematics for that child and teach it in parallel with a pre-algebra course. It's just not. We don't have the staff to create a class for one child.

So how would I handle such a student? Personally, I would probably counsel the child out. But of course, that's not part of my job description. What would the administration say in that case? I don't know, honestly, but it would seem to me a parent would know long before this point whether a school could meet her child's needs.

Again, we're talking about profoundly gifted kids here, not the ones who are very bright, working above grade level, and are high achievers-- which most privates in the area have in spades.

These last few posts are helpful and moving the discussion forward. I've got a few points to toss in:

1. Most DC private schools are not selecting on academic ability in the lower schools. So the "top" privates are in fact widely varied in the children they serve, with kids ranging from the 70th (and even lower) percentile and up. The bulk of kids in the lower schools of these schools are clustered around the 80th percentile, from the data I have seen administrators share. (Please correct me if you have knowledge otherwise; I'd be genuinely interested). I am not measuring by WPSSI scores here, which can be unreliable and skew by parent coaching, but on Olsat/ERB/etc results.

2. By high school, these schools are selecting heavily on academic ability and are heavily tracked.

3. A curriculum that serves the 80th percentile well is way too easy and slow for kids with IQs of 130ish and up (98%+ percentile)

4. Thus in discussing "gifted" kids needs in the classroom, I think most parents are complaining about lower and early middle school, where teachers in all the big DC privates are asked to teach the same course to kids with a wide range of abilities.

5. I totally agree with the teacher who said that kids in these schools with IQs in the 95-99th percentile are not uncommon.

6. But I totally disagree with her/him that those children are currently adequately served by DCs private schools. They are, for the most part, seriously underchallenged until they hit high school. That's a lot of years of being bored at school.

10:22 again -- just to be clear.

I'm trying to confirm that when teachers say they don't like parents asking for special accommodations, they aren't referring to giftedness in general. Instead, they are referring to the 95-99th pctile kids, who fit in just fine with the rest of their classmates in this bracket.

However, the angry reaction from one poster here seems to assume that teachers are referring to *all* gifted kids, including the special case of the profoundly gifted kid, who may not fit in just fine. But you teachers may not have been referring to that kid, but instead to the much more common, PITA parent who thinks 95th pctile is something to brag about.

So have I identified the source of our misunderstandings?

10:22 again. So when we're talking about teachers getting exasperated with parents who come in and say, "my special snowflake is brilliant, s/he needs special accommodations," we're often talking about a kid who is in the same 95-99th bracket as many other kids in the class? Kids who wouldn't have been accepted into the school without scores this high. (Except, point taken, for the kids who tested at 99th in K but didn't keep it up.) I can see how, as a teacher, you would get a bit frustrated with these parents.

The ghastly letter and the references to the once-every-5-10-year kid are really talking about a different kid, the 99.99th pctile kid who is profoundly gifted. There's a DCUM mom who routinely drags this kid into every discussion. It tends to derail the discussion because people get exasperated when they are talking about their highly gifted kid who might not, however, be doing base 7 and reading Tolstoy. But the questions raised here about teachers' ability to deal are probably more valid for this particular type of kid.

So to move this discussion along, maybe we need a rubric:

(1) gifted and highly gifted kids (95-99th pctile).

Teachers, can you challenge these kids just fine, and does it drive you nuts when parents come in asking for special treatment?

(2) profoundly gifted kids (99.99th pctile). Can you challenge this kid? Can you tell us how you would approach this kid and the parents? Or would you recommend this kid go to a magnet?

You still haven't answered the question. What would you do if you found one if these kids in your classroom?

Also 99th at K or 4th entry year does not translate to 99th in later years.

profoundly gifted is better served in a t&g or magnet.

9:12 mentions the 95-99th pctile range as gifted, which is probably right. But aren't the top private schools filled with these kids, as a criteria for admission? So my question is, is differentiation a common problem in most privates, in the sense that a teacher would ever have a class with just one kid in the 95-99th pctile range who needs lots of individual differentiation?

Possibly what some are talking about, including the mom with the ghastly ghost-written letter, is "profoundly gifted" kids. These are the kids in the 99.99th pctile who are 30 points above the 130 IQ kids. IMO these kids are better served in magnets anyway. But in any case, the questions about the once-every-5-10-year kids is probably about these extremely rare cases, not about the the many talented, hardworking and gifted kids in our private and public schools.

In a perfect world no one would be tutored and all of the students work would be a reflection of themselves. In reality about 1/4-1/3 of the students in US are tutored. Some seek help for organizational issues which I consider to be more "acceptable" than subject tutoring. Tutoring becomes a problem when a student is being tutored in every subject. Either they can not do the work and should not be at the school or another problem exists (i.e. parents want straight As and they is not a realistic expectation). Most assignments in upper grades are designed to reflect a students understanding - in the end do they understand the material on their own from hardwork, homework and class time or from having it reexplained and worked through with someone outside of school. I do not think tutoring is inherently bad or "unfair". Parents think more students are being tutored than actually are. I think the access issue of who can pay for the best tutor is not equitable but the school has no control over that. Also do not write your child's paper. We know how Janie expresses herself, her ability to critically reason and her knowledge of grammar from her writing in class. It is really obvious when mom and dad edit her work. At my school this has become an honor code issue on more than one occasion. Also, just because you are a lawyer, does not mean you can write an A paper for a 10th grade English class or because you have a BA in History from Harvard that you can write an A paper for AP US. I know that is hard to hear, please do not be upset when your "child"(aka you) comes home with a B.

What are teachers' thoughts about tutors or getting extra help?

Actually I am not sorry I did not post immediately and pet peeve #99 is that snide attitude of some parents "I think its so telling no teacher (there are maybe 3-4 of us contributing) has responded to this question on this message board in 24 hrs..." Just because things dont magically happen on your schedule (remember despite paying l-o-t-s of money to send your gifted angle to the school we do not work for you) do not jump to conclusions. Another word of advice entitled parent = entitled child. They pick up on everything you do and say, your attitude will eventually become theirs.