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Anonymous wrote:I did Ivy undergrad and state school for PhD, so it's not a one-to-one comparison because I couldn't possibly have done both for undergrad. Ivy is awesome, and not because it will improve your job prospects, but because of the exposure to many smart people for four years. I can't sugar coat it, Ivy is on another level, period. The intellectual interactions I had at my Ivy were deeper and much more numerous. State was fine, and there were some really smart people too, but Ivy has the volume. It's all about the volume of smart people. Not demeaning state, because I did it too.

Roughly what percentage of the people there were truly brilliant, taught-themselves-calculus-and-Latin-at-10 types people, and what percentage were just normal smart people with some moxie?

I’m asking because I’ve always assumed that parents should stretch to send their kids to HYPSM+Caltech+UChicago+Columbia because those are the natural destinations for people with IQs over 165 or the culturally adjusted equivalent. So, for example, roughly at the level of the most academically smart three or four high school seniors in the Washington area in any given year.

But is that really true, or does holistic admissions mean that students with that kind of raw academic intelligence are not that more common at than at the University of Maryland?

My benchmark is an undergrad school like Emory. I think about 1 in 300 students might have been at the shockingly smart level.

Everyone can only offer their anecdotal experience. Mine is that I graduated from a middling Ivy 25 years ago. When I first entered in freshman year, I did anticipate every day would be late night philosophical debates over pizza with your dorm mates, and all classes would have teachers like John Keating in Dead Poets Society. And I'd be surrounded by brilliance everywhere and students from interesting, unique backgrounds. I do remember saying this to an upperclassman at the same school the summer before I matriculated and how his noncommital and vague "yeah" was the first hint that, no, it wasn't going to be like that.

And it wasn't. Most kids were pleasantly intelligent, hard working, but not brilliant. The midnight pizza and philosophy happened maybe twice in all four years. The campus cliques were real, rich kids hanging out with other rich kids, athletes with athletes, minorities with minorities, and people like me with the other UMC kids, meaning my social life wasn't terribly different from my high school friends, just from different states. Had great professors and ordinary professors but none were dramatic. And then the four years were over.

I can't say I look back with a feeling of wow, what an amazing time. If there really was a special, amazing, only at an Ivy experience, it bypassed me completely. I do pretty well in life and across the last 20 years have worked with some genuinely impressive people and they came from all sorts of backgrounds.

Anonymous wrote:I did Ivy undergrad and state school for PhD, so it's not a one-to-one comparison because I couldn't possibly have done both for undergrad. Ivy is awesome, and not because it will improve your job prospects, but because of the exposure to many smart people for four years. I can't sugar coat it, Ivy is on another level, period. The intellectual interactions I had at my Ivy were deeper and much more numerous. State was fine, and there were some really smart people too, but Ivy has the volume. It's all about the volume of smart people. Not demeaning state, because I did it too.

Roughly what percentage of the people there were truly brilliant, taught-themselves-calculus-and-Latin-at-10 types people, and what percentage were just normal smart people with some moxie?

I’m asking because I’ve always assumed that parents should stretch to send their kids to HYPSM+Caltech+UChicago+Columbia because those are the natural destinations for people with IQs over 165 or the culturally adjusted equivalent. So, for example, roughly at the level of the most academically smart three or four high school seniors in the Washington area in any given year.

But is that really true, or does holistic admissions mean that students with that kind of raw academic intelligence are not that more common at than at the University of Maryland?

My benchmark is an undergrad school like Emory. I think about 1 in 300 students might have been at the shockingly smart level.

Anonymous wrote:I did Ivy undergrad and state school for PhD, so it's not a one-to-one comparison because I couldn't possibly have done both for undergrad. Ivy is awesome, and not because it will improve your job prospects, but because of the exposure to many smart people for four years. I can't sugar coat it, Ivy is on another level, period. The intellectual interactions I had at my Ivy were deeper and much more numerous. State was fine, and there were some really smart people too, but Ivy has the volume. It's all about the volume of smart people. Not demeaning state, because I did it too.

Absolutely true. The percentage of these people with similar brains is invigorating to be around

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Anonymous wrote:My DS got accepted to one of the Ivies—think Princeton, Yale, or Harvard—but we would have had to pay the full cost, around $100K per year. He also got accepted to University of Florida with a full ride (tuition plus room and board).

We told him that he could attend UF and have $400K+ (depending on investment growth) waiting for him at graduation, or he could attend the Ivy. Seven years earlier, one of his older brothers had been in the exact same situation and chose to attend an Ivy League school, which he later regretted. His $300K could have grown into several million dollars. We’re not wealthy, so while money isn’t everything, it’s important to be able to live a stress-free life.

My older DS advised his younger brother to take the $400K and attend UF, and he did. He’ll be a freshman at UF in a few months.

YMMV.

let's see what he thinks of his decision later.

i was full pay at HYP. no regrets!

PP here. Did you fully read what I wrote before commenting? DS older brother paid full tuition at HYP and regretted the decision.

It sounds like your entire family has bad judgment. Passing on H/Y/P for Florida, however, borders on criminally bad decision making. But here you are bragging about it.

DCUM never disappoints. WTF...

Having the money to send kid to an Ivy and instead sending to a school known for heavily relying on online classes is truly
a WTF decision.

Your ignorance shows. UF is an excellent school.

They have online classes, and they don't do a lot of work. A lot of smart kids go there, but I think it is a lot like the public school system in america. You can get a great education, but you need to seek out opportunities. I think at the ivies, there is a lot of peer pressure to do work, and challenge yourself. Go and look at the downtown bar scene on a thursday night at UF vs. Yale. It is a different learning environment.

I agree to a point but as a parent I really don’t value pressure to work over seeking out opportunities as you put it. But to each their own.

My kid went to a large public and worked like a dog. I can't imagine any Ivy would be harder.
The dorms might be nicer at an Ivy, though.
She made a lot of smart friends and got into a great grad program.

Those four years only matter if your kid is planning on a career in higher ed. Otherwise, hard work, great networking and a great attitude will bring success even if you go to community college (BTW, a friend went to CC, then big state school and got into HLS. It happens.)

First ivy dorms are not nicer.
Second:
Ivies are much harder than publics because of the peer group! It is a huge difference to try to be top-quarter at an ivy when the top quarter are 1560-1570+(test required data), versus 1450-1480+ at top publics. Average publics are lower.

And for all of that hard work required, at least at an ivy the top quarter is almost guaranteed T14 law and the top 5 law schools are within range. At a large public many send one student to a T5 law school every other year and the top ones(UVA, Michigan) send to T5 law only if one is the top 1-3%.

DC has many prelaw friends at their ivy: the norm seems to be T14 law. They personally know several who are headed to T5 law this year or went last year. The T5 law admits total are about 2-3 dozen every year from this ivy. That is one hell of a boost.

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Anonymous wrote:Princeton yes. Brown no. Maybes in the middle.

Full-pay at Brown, no regrets.

Same. It’s been fantastic for my kid.

+1 Great learning environment and my kid's people are there

State is "I am reading about Rome." Ivy is "I live in Rome."

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Anonymous wrote:I did Ivy undergrad and state school for PhD, so it's not a one-to-one comparison because I couldn't possibly have done both for undergrad. Ivy is awesome, and not because it will improve your job prospects, but because of the exposure to many smart people for four years. I can't sugar coat it, Ivy is on another level, period. The intellectual interactions I had at my Ivy were deeper and much more numerous. State was fine, and there were some really smart people too, but Ivy has the volume. It's all about the volume of smart people. Not demeaning state, because I did it too.

This is how I feel, it just permeates all aspects of life. The convos at meals, who you live with, clubs, so much personal growth when you’re surrounding by it all day long everywhere.

You get it: it's EVERYTHING.

My buddy and I, we both did Ivy, and we have like a dozen "Cornell moments," encounters we had with random people that just blew our minds. I have never been around so many trilinguals and quatrilinguals before or since. This guy was of Italian descent, lived in Colombia (the country), studied in a German school in Colombia, and was going to Cornell, so any time I would drop by he would be reading a book in any of those four languages.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I did Ivy undergrad and state school for PhD, so it's not a one-to-one comparison because I couldn't possibly have done both for undergrad. Ivy is awesome, and not because it will improve your job prospects, but because of the exposure to many smart people for four years. I can't sugar coat it, Ivy is on another level, period. The intellectual interactions I had at my Ivy were deeper and much more numerous. State was fine, and there were some really smart people too, but Ivy has the volume. It's all about the volume of smart people. Not demeaning state, because I did it too.

This is how I feel, it just permeates all aspects of life. The convos at meals, who you live with, clubs, so much personal growth when you’re surrounding by it all day long everywhere.

You get it: it's EVERYTHING.

Anonymous wrote:I did Ivy undergrad and state school for PhD, so it's not a one-to-one comparison because I couldn't possibly have done both for undergrad. Ivy is awesome, and not because it will improve your job prospects, but because of the exposure to many smart people for four years. I can't sugar coat it, Ivy is on another level, period. The intellectual interactions I had at my Ivy were deeper and much more numerous. State was fine, and there were some really smart people too, but Ivy has the volume. It's all about the volume of smart people. Not demeaning state, because I did it too.

This is how I feel, it just permeates all aspects of life. The convos at meals, who you live with, clubs, so much personal growth when you’re surrounding by it all day long everywhere.

I did Ivy undergrad and state school for PhD, so it's not a one-to-one comparison because I couldn't possibly have done both for undergrad. Ivy is awesome, and not because it will improve your job prospects, but because of the exposure to many smart people for four years. I can't sugar coat it, Ivy is on another level, period. The intellectual interactions I had at my Ivy were deeper and much more numerous. State was fine, and there were some really smart people too, but Ivy has the volume. It's all about the volume of smart people. Not demeaning state, because I did it too.

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Anonymous wrote:My DS got accepted to one of the Ivies—think Princeton, Yale, or Harvard—but we would have had to pay the full cost, around $100K per year. He also got accepted to University of Florida with a full ride (tuition plus room and board).

We told him that he could attend UF and have $400K+ (depending on investment growth) waiting for him at graduation, or he could attend the Ivy. Seven years earlier, one of his older brothers had been in the exact same situation and chose to attend an Ivy League school, which he later regretted. His $300K could have grown into several million dollars. We’re not wealthy, so while money isn’t everything, it’s important to be able to live a stress-free life.

My older DS advised his younger brother to take the $400K and attend UF, and he did. He’ll be a freshman at UF in a few months.

YMMV.

let's see what he thinks of his decision later.

i was full pay at HYP. no regrets!

PP here. Did you fully read what I wrote before commenting? DS older brother paid full tuition at HYP and regretted the decision.

It sounds like your entire family has bad judgment. Passing on H/Y/P for Florida, however, borders on criminally bad decision making. But here you are bragging about it.

DCUM never disappoints. WTF...

Having the money to send kid to an Ivy and instead sending to a school known for heavily relying on online classes is truly
a WTF decision.

Your ignorance shows. UF is an excellent school.

They have online classes, and they don't do a lot of work. A lot of smart kids go there, but I think it is a lot like the public school system in america. You can get a great education, but you need to seek out opportunities. I think at the ivies, there is a lot of peer pressure to do work, and challenge yourself. Go and look at the downtown bar scene on a thursday night at UF vs. Yale. It is a different learning environment.

I agree to a point but as a parent I really don’t value pressure to work over seeking out opportunities as you put it. But to each their own.

My kid went to a large public and worked like a dog. I can't imagine any Ivy would be harder.
The dorms might be nicer at an Ivy, though.
She made a lot of smart friends and got into a great grad program.

Those four years only matter if your kid is planning on a career in higher ed. Otherwise, hard work, great networking and a great attitude will bring success even if you go to community college (BTW, a friend went to CC, then big state school and got into HLS. It happens.)

Sure, there is a one in a million chance that someone like your friend would get into Harvard Law. On the other hand, twenty percent of the class at Harvard Law and Harvard Medical School were Harvard College Undergrads.

Anonymous wrote:My child got off an Ivy waitlist. I hope this post doesn't get derailed on that point. My question is---->is a close to full pay Ivy worth it? We were offered $10k in aid. Total cost will be roughly $80-85K.

I'm not going to say which school it is.
In general, would you stretch to pay it?
We're currently set to pay half the money for a school ranked around #30.

Depends on the kid. My kid couldn't care less about Ivy. I did Ivy and I loved it, and not to brag about it to anyone: most of my coworkers do not know I went to an Ivy school and I never ever wear my alma mater anything (T-shirt, etc).
If you asked my kid, he would say "put that money in the bank and go to a top state school"
If you ask me: it's worth every penny.

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Anonymous wrote:My DS got accepted to one of the Ivies—think Princeton, Yale, or Harvard—but we would have had to pay the full cost, around $100K per year. He also got accepted to University of Florida with a full ride (tuition plus room and board).

We told him that he could attend UF and have $400K+ (depending on investment growth) waiting for him at graduation, or he could attend the Ivy. Seven years earlier, one of his older brothers had been in the exact same situation and chose to attend an Ivy League school, which he later regretted. His $300K could have grown into several million dollars. We’re not wealthy, so while money isn’t everything, it’s important to be able to live a stress-free life.

My older DS advised his younger brother to take the $400K and attend UF, and he did. He’ll be a freshman at UF in a few months.

YMMV.

let's see what he thinks of his decision later.

i was full pay at HYP. no regrets!

PP here. Did you fully read what I wrote before commenting? DS older brother paid full tuition at HYP and regretted the decision.

It sounds like your entire family has bad judgment. Passing on H/Y/P for Florida, however, borders on criminally bad decision making. But here you are bragging about it.

DCUM never disappoints. WTF...

Having the money to send kid to an Ivy and instead sending to a school known for heavily relying on online classes is truly
a WTF decision.

Your ignorance shows. UF is an excellent school.

They have online classes, and they don't do a lot of work. A lot of smart kids go there, but I think it is a lot like the public school system in america. You can get a great education, but you need to seek out opportunities. I think at the ivies, there is a lot of peer pressure to do work, and challenge yourself. Go and look at the downtown bar scene on a thursday night at UF vs. Yale. It is a different learning environment.

I agree to a point but as a parent I really don’t value pressure to work over seeking out opportunities as you put it. But to each their own.

My kid went to a large public and worked like a dog. I can't imagine any Ivy would be harder.
The dorms might be nicer at an Ivy, though.
She made a lot of smart friends and got into a great grad program.

Those four years only matter if your kid is planning on a career in higher ed. Otherwise, hard work, great networking and a great attitude will bring success even if you go to community college (BTW, a friend went to CC, then big state school and got into HLS. It happens.)

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Anonymous wrote:My DS got accepted to one of the Ivies—think Princeton, Yale, or Harvard—but we would have had to pay the full cost, around $100K per year. He also got accepted to University of Florida with a full ride (tuition plus room and board).

We told him that he could attend UF and have $400K+ (depending on investment growth) waiting for him at graduation, or he could attend the Ivy. Seven years earlier, one of his older brothers had been in the exact same situation and chose to attend an Ivy League school, which he later regretted. His $300K could have grown into several million dollars. We’re not wealthy, so while money isn’t everything, it’s important to be able to live a stress-free life.

My older DS advised his younger brother to take the $400K and attend UF, and he did. He’ll be a freshman at UF in a few months.

YMMV.

let's see what he thinks of his decision later.

i was full pay at HYP. no regrets!

PP here. Did you fully read what I wrote before commenting? DS older brother paid full tuition at HYP and regretted the decision.

Yes I read it. Did you miss that I am a HYP grad with a lot more career years behind me than your son, and I disagree with him? I would never advise anyone to go to U Florida over an Ivy unless the Ivy was truly unaffordable.

I'm an Ivy graduate (double) and knew several people back in my day 30 years ago who turned down Ivies for much cheaper schools and all have done extremely well. I also know plenty who went to the Ivies and have done no better than had they gone to their flagships, ending up in nice UMC lives but not elite. And I also know people who went to Ivies who effectively failed to take off in life. There's more than you'd think.

The percent of Ivy, even HYP, grads who go on to elite outcomes is small, a minority of all HYP graduates.

UF is a pretty good state university. At one time I'd have agreed HYP and the other Ivies would offer better overall educational experience, but that's much more subjective these days, it is probably much easier to graduate from HYP with a mediocre to useless education nowadays. A bright kid can absolutely get a great education at a big flagship.

But we aren’t talking about Cornell or Columbia. I attended a T10 college and T5 Ivy law school. The names alone have opened many doors for me. I did not attend Harvard but my spouse did. Take a look at the red books, you significantly underestimate the number of graduates with elite outcomes.

Florida has an ok reputation but because it provides free tuition to so many, is significantly underresourced and heavily relies on online classes. There are other schools that offer a high quality education beyond the elite universities. Florida just isn’t one of them.

There are studies that show the majority of CEOs went to regular state universities.

I went to an Ivy and a mid-level law school. I'm not making much money because I work for a nonprofit.

I wish I'd going to a less-prestigious school undergrad and a more prestigious law school. But my parents wanted me to go to an Ivy, so I did. I didn't push myself, which made it such a waste. I pushed very hard in law school and did well, and I'm doing fine in my career, but I don't think the Ivy was worth it.

Ask your kid, OP. What does she want to do? If she wants the Ivy, then go for it.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DS got accepted to one of the Ivies—think Princeton, Yale, or Harvard—but we would have had to pay the full cost, around $100K per year. He also got accepted to University of Florida with a full ride (tuition plus room and board).

We told him that he could attend UF and have $400K+ (depending on investment growth) waiting for him at graduation, or he could attend the Ivy. Seven years earlier, one of his older brothers had been in the exact same situation and chose to attend an Ivy League school, which he later regretted. His $300K could have grown into several million dollars. We’re not wealthy, so while money isn’t everything, it’s important to be able to live a stress-free life.

My older DS advised his younger brother to take the $400K and attend UF, and he did. He’ll be a freshman at UF in a few months.

YMMV.

And your kid couldn’t have decided this before applying to the ivy? Just weird…

I still can't believe op's kid could have gone to H/Y/P and instead is getting a Florida degree. Just a complete waste.

Hardly.

My kid went to Brown and hated it. Loathed it. Hated that "Ivy" culture. She made good friends, who also hated Brown.

She would have been happier at UF. She is not an elitist. She's going into a STEM field, and Brown did not prepare her any better than UF would have.

But, OP, it totally depends on your personal finances, and on your kid.

We could afford full pay at Brown with no issues. But still, if I had a do over, I'd have sent my kid to a large public. She would have been much happier.

Neither of you have a clue what STEM is like at a large public, and certainly there are some where it is quite good, but not UF. Anyway, sounds like a Brown education was wasted on her, too bad for all that she didn't transfer.