Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So yet another nugget about HB is these kids are not even operating at the level of kids at the home high schools and college admission is probably easier for them as a result.

In the end, in theory people should want their kids well prepared for college but I'm sure plenty of people love that they're getting AP lang and lit on their transcript with an A and meanwhile doing nothing in class.

Hold on tiger. who said they are doing nothing in class? and who said college admissions are easier? the kids at HB are less prepared for the AP exams and get lower scores. That hurts them with college admissions, not helps them

It sounds like they are not doing nearly as much as kids at the other schools in AP classes.

It 100 percent makes college admissions easier. Kids are compared against their peers at their same school. HB kids are taking easier classes that are labeled "most rigorous" for their school. To recap, they are not working as hard and taking fewer challenging classes (since so many fewer are offered at HB to begin with) and then getting into the same schools as kids from the larger high schools. Compare a UVA admit from HB to a UVA admit from W-L IB and the W-L IB kid is a far more impressive and higher achieving student. You clearly don't know anything about the college admissions process.

Right but AP scores are AP scores and these would be compared against the applicant pool more globally. It does not seem like a strong point that AP classes are not taught as well resulting in kids getting lower schools. But you seem to disagree and this that it is, so I probably won't be able to convince you otherwise.

Proof is in the pudding: HBW dominates college admissions

https://www.scribd.com/document/757378704/Where-Arlington-s-Class-of-2024-Applied-to-College-and-Got-In

Yorktown High School:
Top-20 accepts: ~36
Top-50 accepts: ~110
Estimated class size: ~600
Approx. rates: ~6% Top-20, ~18% Top-50

Washington-Liberty High School:
Top-20 accepts: ~34
Top-50 accepts: ~95
Estimated class size: ~550
Approx. rates: ~6% Top-20, ~17% Top-50

Wakefield High School:
Top-20 accepts: ~12
Top.-50 accepts: ~45
Estimated class size: ~480
Approx. rates: ~2.5% Top-20, ~9% Top-50

H-B Woodlawn Secondary Program:
Top-20 accepts: ~10
Top-50 accepts: ~30
Estimated class size: ~120
Approx. rates: ~8% Top-20, ~25% Top-50

Arlington Career Center / Arlington Tech:
Top-20 accepts: ~3
Top-50 accepts: ~12
Estimated class size: ~100
Approx. rates: ~3% Top-20, ~12% Top-50

Districtwide estimate (≈1,850 graduates):
Top-20 acceptances: ~95–100 (~5%)
Top-50 acceptances: ~290–300 (~16%)

What year is this and where did you get the estimated class size? Did you pick out top 20 and top 50 manually from the chart or is there another source where it’s summarized?

Agree, plus the class size is not a good denominator. Numbers of applications would be a better one. I calculated it for UVA and ….its exactly the same from all schools and programs. Consistently ~ over 17%-19% from each, no matter where the kid went.

Counselors and peers at HBW push kids to take the shot at elite schools, whereas neighborhood schools counselors are focused on getting students to pass the SOL and graduate, not apply to elite schools. If you only count the kids who actually applied, you’re missing the invisible students who were guided away or never encouraged to apply to elite schools entirely. Class size is a much better measure of a school's overall ceiling.

Well, HB doesn't even have counselors so try again.

The teachers act as counselors, everyone knows that. But in their ROLE as counselors, they are more likely to encourage elite schools since they spend most of their time involved in education, rather than discipline and administrative fire drills like at neighborhood schools.

You’re making a lot of assumptions here. The TAs know very little about the college process. Because they are teachers not counselors. My kid’s TA gave zero input on where to apply— elite or not. Literally zero. No one at HB did. The only person who encouraged him to consider elite schools was me.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So yet another nugget about HB is these kids are not even operating at the level of kids at the home high schools and college admission is probably easier for them as a result.

In the end, in theory people should want their kids well prepared for college but I'm sure plenty of people love that they're getting AP lang and lit on their transcript with an A and meanwhile doing nothing in class.

Hold on tiger. who said they are doing nothing in class? and who said college admissions are easier? the kids at HB are less prepared for the AP exams and get lower scores. That hurts them with college admissions, not helps them

It sounds like they are not doing nearly as much as kids at the other schools in AP classes.

It 100 percent makes college admissions easier. Kids are compared against their peers at their same school. HB kids are taking easier classes that are labeled "most rigorous" for their school. To recap, they are not working as hard and taking fewer challenging classes (since so many fewer are offered at HB to begin with) and then getting into the same schools as kids from the larger high schools. Compare a UVA admit from HB to a UVA admit from W-L IB and the W-L IB kid is a far more impressive and higher achieving student. You clearly don't know anything about the college admissions process.

Right but AP scores are AP scores and these would be compared against the applicant pool more globally. It does not seem like a strong point that AP classes are not taught as well resulting in kids getting lower schools. But you seem to disagree and this that it is, so I probably won't be able to convince you otherwise.

Proof is in the pudding: HBW dominates college admissions

https://www.scribd.com/document/757378704/Where-Arlington-s-Class-of-2024-Applied-to-College-and-Got-In

Yorktown High School:
Top-20 accepts: ~36
Top-50 accepts: ~110
Estimated class size: ~600
Approx. rates: ~6% Top-20, ~18% Top-50

Washington-Liberty High School:
Top-20 accepts: ~34
Top-50 accepts: ~95
Estimated class size: ~550
Approx. rates: ~6% Top-20, ~17% Top-50

Wakefield High School:
Top-20 accepts: ~12
Top.-50 accepts: ~45
Estimated class size: ~480
Approx. rates: ~2.5% Top-20, ~9% Top-50

H-B Woodlawn Secondary Program:
Top-20 accepts: ~10
Top-50 accepts: ~30
Estimated class size: ~120
Approx. rates: ~8% Top-20, ~25% Top-50

Arlington Career Center / Arlington Tech:
Top-20 accepts: ~3
Top-50 accepts: ~12
Estimated class size: ~100
Approx. rates: ~3% Top-20, ~12% Top-50

Districtwide estimate (≈1,850 graduates):
Top-20 acceptances: ~95–100 (~5%)
Top-50 acceptances: ~290–300 (~16%)

What year is this and where did you get the estimated class size? Did you pick out top 20 and top 50 manually from the chart or is there another source where it’s summarized?

Agree, plus the class size is not a good denominator. Numbers of applications would be a better one. I calculated it for UVA and ….its exactly the same from all schools and programs. Consistently ~ over 17%-19% from each, no matter where the kid went.

Counselors and peers at HBW push kids to take the shot at elite schools, whereas neighborhood schools counselors are focused on getting students to pass the SOL and graduate, not apply to elite schools. If you only count the kids who actually applied, you’re missing the invisible students who were guided away or never encouraged to apply to elite schools entirely. Class size is a much better measure of a school's overall ceiling.

Well, HB doesn't even have counselors so try again.

The teachers act as counselors, everyone knows that. But in their ROLE as counselors, they are more likely to encourage elite schools since they spend most of their time involved in education, rather than discipline and administrative fire drills like at neighborhood schools.

From experience, this is not an absolute truth. In fact we'd claim it skews heavily the other way. A lot of HB teachers, including the ones that we've had as "counselors" AKA TAs, meet each kid where the kid is, where the kid wants to be, or where the kid thinks they are. The more mature kids (and there obviously aren't that many) can take advantage of this--hence the few kids that get admitted to elite schools. However, one could argue (say, if they knew anything about the top kids from the past 5+ graduating classes) that many of those kids would have excelled at larger schools and would probably have done better over there given the increased resources and opportunities over there.

For us, there has been no real push from HB teachers to take harder classes nor is there any direct communication with parents with any concerns, except from one teacher who every kid takes and would say, "oh yeah that one's not surprising" given their background. Some of the teachers have been fantastic. However, even when they do care, I doubt that these TAs are sophisticated enough to research a kid's academics and ECs, and then match them up with elite colleges that are a best fit to apply to. They are not experienced college counselors with metadata from 1000s of internal alumni data points. The TAs can only look at Naviance and now SchooLinks (which is garbage) just like we do. As a parent, it's taken literally 100s of hours of research and college visits for us to get a sense of which colleges to shoot for and how the colleges select their applicants. The latter time and money expense/waste is because of the nonsense of holistic admissions at the top colleges.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you combine an AP class and a non-AP class. Can someone explain how that works.

For one of the AP/regular English classes... You teach towards the bottom. Then, for example, you give an assignment, for which you can read literally a choice of comic book, a 2nd grade reading level book, a middle grade book, or one or two actual books. I'm not sure of the exact number for each assignment but I know for sure there were at least the comic book, 2nd grade, middle grade, and one famous regular book. It's sad. And the fact that everyone probably gets graded the exact same is unfair and embarrassing. Oh yeah, there was also a choice to watch a movie instead.

Not an exaggeration. And don't complain if your kid does poorly on the AP test because I don't think anyone (parent or kid) officially complains at the beginning of school or during the year, according to our kids. (They could be doing the "privacy" nonsense and trying to pretend that your kid is the only one complaining, where parents clam up because of shame. This happened pre-Covid at an APS elementary school and they got away with it for several years before more than a few parents started meeting at school events and comparing notes. Its harder for them to get away with it now.)

I think I know which class you’re talking about. It was very disappointing. They mostly watched films instead of reading. I chalked it up to a bad teacher— which we’ve had from time to time over the years in public schools. HB isn’t immune to the usual public school problems.

Which grade was this? Offering a 2nd grade book vs. a regular book for that level is horrifying, and then everyone gets graded the same, as if it was the same difficulty? Is this how they “hide” the non-achievements of kids who have certain reasons (like medical) or is this done to hide language inadequacies? Or WHY?! Why would a school do this in English AP in HS? Or did I misunderstand the PP?

You misunderstood. I have no idea if there is a different grade book. Where did you get that from? And if there is, why is that so horrifying when there are two different classes. What difference would it make?

I don’t see how this co teaching hides anything. Can you explain that? It’s a matter of resources. The school isn’t big enough to offer separate classes so they have to teach them together.

Weird that some people think this is some big conspiracy. But that’s par for the course!!! It’s definitely not an advantage but if you don’t like it don’t go to HB

Horrifying - or in other words, inexplicable and inexcusable; that a second grader book would be read in MS or HS - the PP explicitly mentioned “a comic book, a 2nd grader book and a regular book” - that’s why I asked which grade it was. Co-teaching the class (and they also mentioned teaching to the lowest denominator), especially allowing such vastly different materials for the same credit, hides the underachievement within their statistics and test scores, and it hides how kids do overall in the class, unless they break it down further, which APS usually does not do.
I’m not that PP and neither are you, so it would only be helpful if they clarified.

Yes comics and children's books are types of literature. There are college classes on children's literature.

How does teaching two classes in the same room hide the underachievement exactly? The kids are enrolled in two separate classes.

The way it would hide the underachievement is the teacher is forced to teach to the lowest common denominator at least some of the time and likely spend more time with the non-AP students, which is what any teacher has to do in that situation in any classroom at any grade level. Therefore the kids enrolled in the AP class are a) getting lower level instruction and work than what should be provided in an AP class and b) probably getting a good grade for doing said lower level work, which others on this thread have said leads to lower AP scores.

This is not even complicated. It's baffling people are not getting it.

Except there an AP exam at the end of the course, so any underachievement would be obvious via AP scores. Also kids submit their AP scores to colleges for admissions purposes. So not having the same opportunity of getting higher AP scores to submit to colleges is a significant downside for HB.

The HBW students have ample time to study or take prep courses for their handful of AP courses, its a completely different experience than the AP/IB slog of the neighborhood schools.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So yet another nugget about HB is these kids are not even operating at the level of kids at the home high schools and college admission is probably easier for them as a result.

In the end, in theory people should want their kids well prepared for college but I'm sure plenty of people love that they're getting AP lang and lit on their transcript with an A and meanwhile doing nothing in class.

Hold on tiger. who said they are doing nothing in class? and who said college admissions are easier? the kids at HB are less prepared for the AP exams and get lower scores. That hurts them with college admissions, not helps them

It sounds like they are not doing nearly as much as kids at the other schools in AP classes.

It 100 percent makes college admissions easier. Kids are compared against their peers at their same school. HB kids are taking easier classes that are labeled "most rigorous" for their school. To recap, they are not working as hard and taking fewer challenging classes (since so many fewer are offered at HB to begin with) and then getting into the same schools as kids from the larger high schools. Compare a UVA admit from HB to a UVA admit from W-L IB and the W-L IB kid is a far more impressive and higher achieving student. You clearly don't know anything about the college admissions process.

Right but AP scores are AP scores and these would be compared against the applicant pool more globally. It does not seem like a strong point that AP classes are not taught as well resulting in kids getting lower schools. But you seem to disagree and this that it is, so I probably won't be able to convince you otherwise.

Proof is in the pudding: HBW dominates college admissions

https://www.scribd.com/document/757378704/Where-Arlington-s-Class-of-2024-Applied-to-College-and-Got-In

Yorktown High School:
Top-20 accepts: ~36
Top-50 accepts: ~110
Estimated class size: ~600
Approx. rates: ~6% Top-20, ~18% Top-50

Washington-Liberty High School:
Top-20 accepts: ~34
Top-50 accepts: ~95
Estimated class size: ~550
Approx. rates: ~6% Top-20, ~17% Top-50

Wakefield High School:
Top-20 accepts: ~12
Top.-50 accepts: ~45
Estimated class size: ~480
Approx. rates: ~2.5% Top-20, ~9% Top-50

H-B Woodlawn Secondary Program:
Top-20 accepts: ~10
Top-50 accepts: ~30
Estimated class size: ~120
Approx. rates: ~8% Top-20, ~25% Top-50

Arlington Career Center / Arlington Tech:
Top-20 accepts: ~3
Top-50 accepts: ~12
Estimated class size: ~100
Approx. rates: ~3% Top-20, ~12% Top-50

Districtwide estimate (≈1,850 graduates):
Top-20 acceptances: ~95–100 (~5%)
Top-50 acceptances: ~290–300 (~16%)

What year is this and where did you get the estimated class size? Did you pick out top 20 and top 50 manually from the chart or is there another source where it’s summarized?

Agree, plus the class size is not a good denominator. Numbers of applications would be a better one. I calculated it for UVA and ….its exactly the same from all schools and programs. Consistently ~ over 17%-19% from each, no matter where the kid went.

Counselors and peers at HBW push kids to take the shot at elite schools, whereas neighborhood schools counselors are focused on getting students to pass the SOL and graduate, not apply to elite schools. If you only count the kids who actually applied, you’re missing the invisible students who were guided away or never encouraged to apply to elite schools entirely. Class size is a much better measure of a school's overall ceiling.

Well, HB doesn't even have counselors so try again.

The teachers act as counselors, everyone knows that. But in their ROLE as counselors, they are more likely to encourage elite schools since they spend most of their time involved in education, rather than discipline and administrative fire drills like at neighborhood schools.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you combine an AP class and a non-AP class. Can someone explain how that works.

For one of the AP/regular English classes... You teach towards the bottom. Then, for example, you give an assignment, for which you can read literally a choice of comic book, a 2nd grade reading level book, a middle grade book, or one or two actual books. I'm not sure of the exact number for each assignment but I know for sure there were at least the comic book, 2nd grade, middle grade, and one famous regular book. It's sad. And the fact that everyone probably gets graded the exact same is unfair and embarrassing. Oh yeah, there was also a choice to watch a movie instead.

Not an exaggeration. And don't complain if your kid does poorly on the AP test because I don't think anyone (parent or kid) officially complains at the beginning of school or during the year, according to our kids. (They could be doing the "privacy" nonsense and trying to pretend that your kid is the only one complaining, where parents clam up because of shame. This happened pre-Covid at an APS elementary school and they got away with it for several years before more than a few parents started meeting at school events and comparing notes. Its harder for them to get away with it now.)

I think I know which class you’re talking about. It was very disappointing. They mostly watched films instead of reading. I chalked it up to a bad teacher— which we’ve had from time to time over the years in public schools. HB isn’t immune to the usual public school problems.

Which grade was this? Offering a 2nd grade book vs. a regular book for that level is horrifying, and then everyone gets graded the same, as if it was the same difficulty? Is this how they “hide” the non-achievements of kids who have certain reasons (like medical) or is this done to hide language inadequacies? Or WHY?! Why would a school do this in English AP in HS? Or did I misunderstand the PP?

You misunderstood. I have no idea if there is a different grade book. Where did you get that from? And if there is, why is that so horrifying when there are two different classes. What difference would it make?

I don’t see how this co teaching hides anything. Can you explain that? It’s a matter of resources. The school isn’t big enough to offer separate classes so they have to teach them together.

Weird that some people think this is some big conspiracy. But that’s par for the course!!! It’s definitely not an advantage but if you don’t like it don’t go to HB

I don't think it's an advantage at all if you actually care about your child's education. It sounds terrible mostly.

+1
There are some great things about HB, but having fewer class options and combined regular AP classes are definitely not advantages.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a parent of HB and non-HB grads, I think it's absurd that people on this thread accept as fact that HB is less rigorous. Not consistent with my experience. The number of students going to prestigious colleges is not because HB students have an easier time. They have to ultimately get the same high scores that anyone else does who wants to get into elite schools. HB has sent multiple students to Harvard and MIT in recent years, and those schools aren't letting anyone in who doesn't get top marks on standardized tests.

Students prone to slacking may find it pretty easy to do so at HB, but so too do exceptional students find ways to bring their achievement to the next level.

1. Both MIT and Harvard were briefly test optional.
2. Of course there are smart kids at HB who can ace the SAT/ACT. That is not what is being discussed here.
3. What is your take on the combined AP/non-AP classes and the lower AP exam scores? How does this demonstrate the equal rigor of HB?

Does HB actually have lower AP scores compared to other APS schools? Where is this published?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a parent of HB and non-HB grads, I think it's absurd that people on this thread accept as fact that HB is less rigorous. Not consistent with my experience. The number of students going to prestigious colleges is not because HB students have an easier time. They have to ultimately get the same high scores that anyone else does who wants to get into elite schools. HB has sent multiple students to Harvard and MIT in recent years, and those schools aren't letting anyone in who doesn't get top marks on standardized tests.

Students prone to slacking may find it pretty easy to do so at HB, but so too do exceptional students find ways to bring their achievement to the next level.

1. Both MIT and Harvard were briefly test optional.
2. Of course there are smart kids at HB who can ace the SAT/ACT. That is not what is being discussed here.
3. What is your take on the combined AP/non-AP classes and the lower AP exam scores? How does this demonstrate the equal rigor of HB?

What's weird that you're trying to spin the combined classes as some advantage. They are not. Believe me.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you combine an AP class and a non-AP class. Can someone explain how that works.

For one of the AP/regular English classes... You teach towards the bottom. Then, for example, you give an assignment, for which you can read literally a choice of comic book, a 2nd grade reading level book, a middle grade book, or one or two actual books. I'm not sure of the exact number for each assignment but I know for sure there were at least the comic book, 2nd grade, middle grade, and one famous regular book. It's sad. And the fact that everyone probably gets graded the exact same is unfair and embarrassing. Oh yeah, there was also a choice to watch a movie instead.

Not an exaggeration. And don't complain if your kid does poorly on the AP test because I don't think anyone (parent or kid) officially complains at the beginning of school or during the year, according to our kids. (They could be doing the "privacy" nonsense and trying to pretend that your kid is the only one complaining, where parents clam up because of shame. This happened pre-Covid at an APS elementary school and they got away with it for several years before more than a few parents started meeting at school events and comparing notes. Its harder for them to get away with it now.)

I think I know which class you’re talking about. It was very disappointing. They mostly watched films instead of reading. I chalked it up to a bad teacher— which we’ve had from time to time over the years in public schools. HB isn’t immune to the usual public school problems.

Which grade was this? Offering a 2nd grade book vs. a regular book for that level is horrifying, and then everyone gets graded the same, as if it was the same difficulty? Is this how they “hide” the non-achievements of kids who have certain reasons (like medical) or is this done to hide language inadequacies? Or WHY?! Why would a school do this in English AP in HS? Or did I misunderstand the PP?

You misunderstood. I have no idea if there is a different grade book. Where did you get that from? And if there is, why is that so horrifying when there are two different classes. What difference would it make?

I don’t see how this co teaching hides anything. Can you explain that? It’s a matter of resources. The school isn’t big enough to offer separate classes so they have to teach them together.

Weird that some people think this is some big conspiracy. But that’s par for the course!!! It’s definitely not an advantage but if you don’t like it don’t go to HB

Horrifying - or in other words, inexplicable and inexcusable; that a second grader book would be read in MS or HS - the PP explicitly mentioned “a comic book, a 2nd grader book and a regular book” - that’s why I asked which grade it was. Co-teaching the class (and they also mentioned teaching to the lowest denominator), especially allowing such vastly different materials for the same credit, hides the underachievement within their statistics and test scores, and it hides how kids do overall in the class, unless they break it down further, which APS usually does not do.
I’m not that PP and neither are you, so it would only be helpful if they clarified.

Yes comics and children's books are types of literature. There are college classes on children's literature.

How does teaching two classes in the same room hide the underachievement exactly? The kids are enrolled in two separate classes.

So your argument is that it is appropriate for high school students taking AP English Literature and Composition to read comics and children's books as the assignments for the class. I want to be sure I'm understanding. Or are you saying these should be options for students taking regular English 12 and it's okay for them?

I agree that comics and children's books are types of literature. No disagreement there.

I'm not an English teacher nor am I a lit professor, so I'm not qualified to answer your question. And no I'm not making any argument. I thought it was odd at first too but then I did a little research and realized these are both considered literature. For example, there are entire college classes taught on children's lit. So analyzing it one time in AP Lit didn't seem that off to me. You seem to disagree, so I think you should go discuss this with the AP English teacher or with the admin. I don't think I can help you further with this.

They are not part of the curriculum for any standard high school english class and of course there are specialty classes for this type of literature in college.

It was ONE teacher who did this in one class, and he's pretty new. You're going to make huge conclusions about HB based on one bad teacher? My kids have had good and bad teachers throughout their time at APS, including at HB and at other schools. I didn't conclude my kid got a subpar education at his elementary school because one year he had a truly horrific teacher who did nothing all year.

Haven't you seen this too? or do you even have kids in APS, PP?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you combine an AP class and a non-AP class. Can someone explain how that works.

For one of the AP/regular English classes... You teach towards the bottom. Then, for example, you give an assignment, for which you can read literally a choice of comic book, a 2nd grade reading level book, a middle grade book, or one or two actual books. I'm not sure of the exact number for each assignment but I know for sure there were at least the comic book, 2nd grade, middle grade, and one famous regular book. It's sad. And the fact that everyone probably gets graded the exact same is unfair and embarrassing. Oh yeah, there was also a choice to watch a movie instead.

Not an exaggeration. And don't complain if your kid does poorly on the AP test because I don't think anyone (parent or kid) officially complains at the beginning of school or during the year, according to our kids. (They could be doing the "privacy" nonsense and trying to pretend that your kid is the only one complaining, where parents clam up because of shame. This happened pre-Covid at an APS elementary school and they got away with it for several years before more than a few parents started meeting at school events and comparing notes. Its harder for them to get away with it now.)

I think I know which class you’re talking about. It was very disappointing. They mostly watched films instead of reading. I chalked it up to a bad teacher— which we’ve had from time to time over the years in public schools. HB isn’t immune to the usual public school problems.

Which grade was this? Offering a 2nd grade book vs. a regular book for that level is horrifying, and then everyone gets graded the same, as if it was the same difficulty? Is this how they “hide” the non-achievements of kids who have certain reasons (like medical) or is this done to hide language inadequacies? Or WHY?! Why would a school do this in English AP in HS? Or did I misunderstand the PP?

You misunderstood. I have no idea if there is a different grade book. Where did you get that from? And if there is, why is that so horrifying when there are two different classes. What difference would it make?

I don’t see how this co teaching hides anything. Can you explain that? It’s a matter of resources. The school isn’t big enough to offer separate classes so they have to teach them together.

Weird that some people think this is some big conspiracy. But that’s par for the course!!! It’s definitely not an advantage but if you don’t like it don’t go to HB

Horrifying - or in other words, inexplicable and inexcusable; that a second grader book would be read in MS or HS - the PP explicitly mentioned “a comic book, a 2nd grader book and a regular book” - that’s why I asked which grade it was. Co-teaching the class (and they also mentioned teaching to the lowest denominator), especially allowing such vastly different materials for the same credit, hides the underachievement within their statistics and test scores, and it hides how kids do overall in the class, unless they break it down further, which APS usually does not do.
I’m not that PP and neither are you, so it would only be helpful if they clarified.

Yes comics and children's books are types of literature. There are college classes on children's literature.

How does teaching two classes in the same room hide the underachievement exactly? The kids are enrolled in two separate classes.

The way it would hide the underachievement is the teacher is forced to teach to the lowest common denominator at least some of the time and likely spend more time with the non-AP students, which is what any teacher has to do in that situation in any classroom at any grade level. Therefore the kids enrolled in the AP class are a) getting lower level instruction and work than what should be provided in an AP class and b) probably getting a good grade for doing said lower level work, which others on this thread have said leads to lower AP scores.

This is not even complicated. It's baffling people are not getting it.

Except there an AP exam at the end of the course, so any underachievement would be obvious via AP scores. Also kids submit their AP scores to colleges for admissions purposes. So not having the same opportunity of getting higher AP scores to submit to colleges is a significant downside for HB.

APS doesn't even require kids to take the AP exam anymore. I think at one point they did require it to get the GPA bump? Someone might know this.

Does APS provide this data anywhere? Of how many students take the exam by school and aggregate scores? Doubt it.

Some colleges recommend submitting them AP scores.

Even for those who insist it's just optional, what assumption do you think a college will make if a student doesn't submit scores?

I'll help you out with this one - It's pretty widely known that not submitting scores - especially when you come from a wealthy school division/area - is a mark against the applicant. The college assumes it means the scores were low. Because otherwise they would have submitted them.

So again I fail to see how gettign subpar instruction which results in lower AP scores is somehow an advantage. But if you are so sure it is, PP, don't just aim for HB. There are far worse schools your kids can go to. Enroll them there instead.

Anonymous wrote:As a parent of HB and non-HB grads, I think it's absurd that people on this thread accept as fact that HB is less rigorous. Not consistent with my experience. The number of students going to prestigious colleges is not because HB students have an easier time. They have to ultimately get the same high scores that anyone else does who wants to get into elite schools. HB has sent multiple students to Harvard and MIT in recent years, and those schools aren't letting anyone in who doesn't get top marks on standardized tests.

Students prone to slacking may find it pretty easy to do so at HB, but so too do exceptional students find ways to bring their achievement to the next level.

1. Both MIT and Harvard were briefly test optional.
2. Of course there are smart kids at HB who can ace the SAT/ACT. That is not what is being discussed here.
3. What is your take on the combined AP/non-AP classes and the lower AP exam scores? How does this demonstrate the equal rigor of HB?

As a parent of HB and non-HB grads, I think it's absurd that people on this thread accept as fact that HB is less rigorous. Not consistent with my experience. The number of students going to prestigious colleges is not because HB students have an easier time. They have to ultimately get the same high scores that anyone else does who wants to get into elite schools. HB has sent multiple students to Harvard and MIT in recent years, and those schools aren't letting anyone in who doesn't get top marks on standardized tests.

Students prone to slacking may find it pretty easy to do so at HB, but so too do exceptional students find ways to bring their achievement to the next level.

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Anonymous wrote:How do you combine an AP class and a non-AP class. Can someone explain how that works.

For one of the AP/regular English classes... You teach towards the bottom. Then, for example, you give an assignment, for which you can read literally a choice of comic book, a 2nd grade reading level book, a middle grade book, or one or two actual books. I'm not sure of the exact number for each assignment but I know for sure there were at least the comic book, 2nd grade, middle grade, and one famous regular book. It's sad. And the fact that everyone probably gets graded the exact same is unfair and embarrassing. Oh yeah, there was also a choice to watch a movie instead.

Not an exaggeration. And don't complain if your kid does poorly on the AP test because I don't think anyone (parent or kid) officially complains at the beginning of school or during the year, according to our kids. (They could be doing the "privacy" nonsense and trying to pretend that your kid is the only one complaining, where parents clam up because of shame. This happened pre-Covid at an APS elementary school and they got away with it for several years before more than a few parents started meeting at school events and comparing notes. Its harder for them to get away with it now.)

I think I know which class you’re talking about. It was very disappointing. They mostly watched films instead of reading. I chalked it up to a bad teacher— which we’ve had from time to time over the years in public schools. HB isn’t immune to the usual public school problems.

Which grade was this? Offering a 2nd grade book vs. a regular book for that level is horrifying, and then everyone gets graded the same, as if it was the same difficulty? Is this how they “hide” the non-achievements of kids who have certain reasons (like medical) or is this done to hide language inadequacies? Or WHY?! Why would a school do this in English AP in HS? Or did I misunderstand the PP?

You misunderstood. I have no idea if there is a different grade book. Where did you get that from? And if there is, why is that so horrifying when there are two different classes. What difference would it make?

I don’t see how this co teaching hides anything. Can you explain that? It’s a matter of resources. The school isn’t big enough to offer separate classes so they have to teach them together.

Weird that some people think this is some big conspiracy. But that’s par for the course!!! It’s definitely not an advantage but if you don’t like it don’t go to HB

Horrifying - or in other words, inexplicable and inexcusable; that a second grader book would be read in MS or HS - the PP explicitly mentioned “a comic book, a 2nd grader book and a regular book” - that’s why I asked which grade it was. Co-teaching the class (and they also mentioned teaching to the lowest denominator), especially allowing such vastly different materials for the same credit, hides the underachievement within their statistics and test scores, and it hides how kids do overall in the class, unless they break it down further, which APS usually does not do.
I’m not that PP and neither are you, so it would only be helpful if they clarified.

Yes comics and children's books are types of literature. There are college classes on children's literature.

How does teaching two classes in the same room hide the underachievement exactly? The kids are enrolled in two separate classes.

The way it would hide the underachievement is the teacher is forced to teach to the lowest common denominator at least some of the time and likely spend more time with the non-AP students, which is what any teacher has to do in that situation in any classroom at any grade level. Therefore the kids enrolled in the AP class are a) getting lower level instruction and work than what should be provided in an AP class and b) probably getting a good grade for doing said lower level work, which others on this thread have said leads to lower AP scores.

This is not even complicated. It's baffling people are not getting it.

Except there an AP exam at the end of the course, so any underachievement would be obvious via AP scores. Also kids submit their AP scores to colleges for admissions purposes. So not having the same opportunity of getting higher AP scores to submit to colleges is a significant downside for HB.

It is not a requirement to submit AP scores to colleges. It's not even really an expectation. Lots of kids don't report them. I bet the kids from HB sure as hell don't!

Right but high AP scores can help a college applicant. An HB student would not have high scores to submit while students at other schools would. I don't see how that's an advantage for HB.

I think this is what it boils down to. In the current test optional environment, which is shifting slightly, plenty of kids are not submitting scores for anything (SAT, ACT, AP exams) and their transcript shows a bunch of APs with A grades. And yes, they're getting into top colleges doing this. (Yes, this is starting to change but still plenty of test optional schools left.)

In an environment where everyone is required to submit test scores, sure high AP scores would level the playing field. I don't think that's the environment we're currently in.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you combine an AP class and a non-AP class. Can someone explain how that works.

For one of the AP/regular English classes... You teach towards the bottom. Then, for example, you give an assignment, for which you can read literally a choice of comic book, a 2nd grade reading level book, a middle grade book, or one or two actual books. I'm not sure of the exact number for each assignment but I know for sure there were at least the comic book, 2nd grade, middle grade, and one famous regular book. It's sad. And the fact that everyone probably gets graded the exact same is unfair and embarrassing. Oh yeah, there was also a choice to watch a movie instead.

Not an exaggeration. And don't complain if your kid does poorly on the AP test because I don't think anyone (parent or kid) officially complains at the beginning of school or during the year, according to our kids. (They could be doing the "privacy" nonsense and trying to pretend that your kid is the only one complaining, where parents clam up because of shame. This happened pre-Covid at an APS elementary school and they got away with it for several years before more than a few parents started meeting at school events and comparing notes. Its harder for them to get away with it now.)

I think I know which class you’re talking about. It was very disappointing. They mostly watched films instead of reading. I chalked it up to a bad teacher— which we’ve had from time to time over the years in public schools. HB isn’t immune to the usual public school problems.

Which grade was this? Offering a 2nd grade book vs. a regular book for that level is horrifying, and then everyone gets graded the same, as if it was the same difficulty? Is this how they “hide” the non-achievements of kids who have certain reasons (like medical) or is this done to hide language inadequacies? Or WHY?! Why would a school do this in English AP in HS? Or did I misunderstand the PP?

You misunderstood. I have no idea if there is a different grade book. Where did you get that from? And if there is, why is that so horrifying when there are two different classes. What difference would it make?

I don’t see how this co teaching hides anything. Can you explain that? It’s a matter of resources. The school isn’t big enough to offer separate classes so they have to teach them together.

Weird that some people think this is some big conspiracy. But that’s par for the course!!! It’s definitely not an advantage but if you don’t like it don’t go to HB

Horrifying - or in other words, inexplicable and inexcusable; that a second grader book would be read in MS or HS - the PP explicitly mentioned “a comic book, a 2nd grader book and a regular book” - that’s why I asked which grade it was. Co-teaching the class (and they also mentioned teaching to the lowest denominator), especially allowing such vastly different materials for the same credit, hides the underachievement within their statistics and test scores, and it hides how kids do overall in the class, unless they break it down further, which APS usually does not do.
I’m not that PP and neither are you, so it would only be helpful if they clarified.

Yes comics and children's books are types of literature. There are college classes on children's literature.

How does teaching two classes in the same room hide the underachievement exactly? The kids are enrolled in two separate classes.

So your argument is that it is appropriate for high school students taking AP English Literature and Composition to read comics and children's books as the assignments for the class. I want to be sure I'm understanding. Or are you saying these should be options for students taking regular English 12 and it's okay for them?

I agree that comics and children's books are types of literature. No disagreement there.

I'm not an English teacher nor am I a lit professor, so I'm not qualified to answer your question. And no I'm not making any argument. I thought it was odd at first too but then I did a little research and realized these are both considered literature. For example, there are entire college classes taught on children's lit. So analyzing it one time in AP Lit didn't seem that off to me. You seem to disagree, so I think you should go discuss this with the AP English teacher or with the admin. I don't think I can help you further with this.

They are not part of the curriculum for any standard high school english class and of course there are specialty classes for this type of literature in college.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you combine an AP class and a non-AP class. Can someone explain how that works.

For one of the AP/regular English classes... You teach towards the bottom. Then, for example, you give an assignment, for which you can read literally a choice of comic book, a 2nd grade reading level book, a middle grade book, or one or two actual books. I'm not sure of the exact number for each assignment but I know for sure there were at least the comic book, 2nd grade, middle grade, and one famous regular book. It's sad. And the fact that everyone probably gets graded the exact same is unfair and embarrassing. Oh yeah, there was also a choice to watch a movie instead.

Not an exaggeration. And don't complain if your kid does poorly on the AP test because I don't think anyone (parent or kid) officially complains at the beginning of school or during the year, according to our kids. (They could be doing the "privacy" nonsense and trying to pretend that your kid is the only one complaining, where parents clam up because of shame. This happened pre-Covid at an APS elementary school and they got away with it for several years before more than a few parents started meeting at school events and comparing notes. Its harder for them to get away with it now.)

I think I know which class you’re talking about. It was very disappointing. They mostly watched films instead of reading. I chalked it up to a bad teacher— which we’ve had from time to time over the years in public schools. HB isn’t immune to the usual public school problems.

Which grade was this? Offering a 2nd grade book vs. a regular book for that level is horrifying, and then everyone gets graded the same, as if it was the same difficulty? Is this how they “hide” the non-achievements of kids who have certain reasons (like medical) or is this done to hide language inadequacies? Or WHY?! Why would a school do this in English AP in HS? Or did I misunderstand the PP?

You misunderstood. I have no idea if there is a different grade book. Where did you get that from? And if there is, why is that so horrifying when there are two different classes. What difference would it make?

I don’t see how this co teaching hides anything. Can you explain that? It’s a matter of resources. The school isn’t big enough to offer separate classes so they have to teach them together.

Weird that some people think this is some big conspiracy. But that’s par for the course!!! It’s definitely not an advantage but if you don’t like it don’t go to HB

Horrifying - or in other words, inexplicable and inexcusable; that a second grader book would be read in MS or HS - the PP explicitly mentioned “a comic book, a 2nd grader book and a regular book” - that’s why I asked which grade it was. Co-teaching the class (and they also mentioned teaching to the lowest denominator), especially allowing such vastly different materials for the same credit, hides the underachievement within their statistics and test scores, and it hides how kids do overall in the class, unless they break it down further, which APS usually does not do.
I’m not that PP and neither are you, so it would only be helpful if they clarified.

Yes comics and children's books are types of literature. There are college classes on children's literature.

How does teaching two classes in the same room hide the underachievement exactly? The kids are enrolled in two separate classes.

The way it would hide the underachievement is the teacher is forced to teach to the lowest common denominator at least some of the time and likely spend more time with the non-AP students, which is what any teacher has to do in that situation in any classroom at any grade level. Therefore the kids enrolled in the AP class are a) getting lower level instruction and work than what should be provided in an AP class and b) probably getting a good grade for doing said lower level work, which others on this thread have said leads to lower AP scores.

This is not even complicated. It's baffling people are not getting it.

Except there an AP exam at the end of the course, so any underachievement would be obvious via AP scores. Also kids submit their AP scores to colleges for admissions purposes. So not having the same opportunity of getting higher AP scores to submit to colleges is a significant downside for HB.

APS doesn't even require kids to take the AP exam anymore. I think at one point they did require it to get the GPA bump? Someone might know this.

Does APS provide this data anywhere? Of how many students take the exam by school and aggregate scores? Doubt it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you combine an AP class and a non-AP class. Can someone explain how that works.

For one of the AP/regular English classes... You teach towards the bottom. Then, for example, you give an assignment, for which you can read literally a choice of comic book, a 2nd grade reading level book, a middle grade book, or one or two actual books. I'm not sure of the exact number for each assignment but I know for sure there were at least the comic book, 2nd grade, middle grade, and one famous regular book. It's sad. And the fact that everyone probably gets graded the exact same is unfair and embarrassing. Oh yeah, there was also a choice to watch a movie instead.

Not an exaggeration. And don't complain if your kid does poorly on the AP test because I don't think anyone (parent or kid) officially complains at the beginning of school or during the year, according to our kids. (They could be doing the "privacy" nonsense and trying to pretend that your kid is the only one complaining, where parents clam up because of shame. This happened pre-Covid at an APS elementary school and they got away with it for several years before more than a few parents started meeting at school events and comparing notes. Its harder for them to get away with it now.)

I think I know which class you’re talking about. It was very disappointing. They mostly watched films instead of reading. I chalked it up to a bad teacher— which we’ve had from time to time over the years in public schools. HB isn’t immune to the usual public school problems.

Which grade was this? Offering a 2nd grade book vs. a regular book for that level is horrifying, and then everyone gets graded the same, as if it was the same difficulty? Is this how they “hide” the non-achievements of kids who have certain reasons (like medical) or is this done to hide language inadequacies? Or WHY?! Why would a school do this in English AP in HS? Or did I misunderstand the PP?

You misunderstood. I have no idea if there is a different grade book. Where did you get that from? And if there is, why is that so horrifying when there are two different classes. What difference would it make?

I don’t see how this co teaching hides anything. Can you explain that? It’s a matter of resources. The school isn’t big enough to offer separate classes so they have to teach them together.

Weird that some people think this is some big conspiracy. But that’s par for the course!!! It’s definitely not an advantage but if you don’t like it don’t go to HB

Horrifying - or in other words, inexplicable and inexcusable; that a second grader book would be read in MS or HS - the PP explicitly mentioned “a comic book, a 2nd grader book and a regular book” - that’s why I asked which grade it was. Co-teaching the class (and they also mentioned teaching to the lowest denominator), especially allowing such vastly different materials for the same credit, hides the underachievement within their statistics and test scores, and it hides how kids do overall in the class, unless they break it down further, which APS usually does not do.
I’m not that PP and neither are you, so it would only be helpful if they clarified.

Yes comics and children's books are types of literature. There are college classes on children's literature.

How does teaching two classes in the same room hide the underachievement exactly? The kids are enrolled in two separate classes.

The way it would hide the underachievement is the teacher is forced to teach to the lowest common denominator at least some of the time and likely spend more time with the non-AP students, which is what any teacher has to do in that situation in any classroom at any grade level. Therefore the kids enrolled in the AP class are a) getting lower level instruction and work than what should be provided in an AP class and b) probably getting a good grade for doing said lower level work, which others on this thread have said leads to lower AP scores.

This is not even complicated. It's baffling people are not getting it.

Except there an AP exam at the end of the course, so any underachievement would be obvious via AP scores. Also kids submit their AP scores to colleges for admissions purposes. So not having the same opportunity of getting higher AP scores to submit to colleges is a significant downside for HB.

It is not a requirement to submit AP scores to colleges. It's not even really an expectation. Lots of kids don't report them. I bet the kids from HB sure as hell don't!

Right but high AP scores can help a college applicant. An HB student would not have high scores to submit while students at other schools would. I don't see how that's an advantage for HB.