Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

These parenting evaluations- called custody evaluations or ‘forensics’ usually end up being extremely disappointing to the normal parent and often backfire. These psychologists fleece people, and often write sloppy reports that are extremely hard to challenge. These evaluations are not recommended by pro child groups, and they can end up costing tens of thousands of dollars, and extend the litigation so more legal fees are paid too. Please do not recommend these to others.

Agree.

Skip the govt social worker flying monkey.

Also skip the $50k private evals.

The writing is on the way, no documented physical abuse to the kids, then you need a strategy to walk the dysfunctional narc back from 50/50.

If your spouse's attorney files a motion ordering it, you can't skip it or worse, if you don't agree it's my understanding that you would have to go the public route and do an evaluation through the courts. So you need to be prepared, especially if they have the financial means to spend freely on legal fun and games. Find an attorney who has experience and can prepare you for the process, because the more disordered your spouse is, the more likely that are to try to flip the script and throw every possible bit of an evaluation at you. It's terrifying, but if you're scared or worried that's probably a sign that you are a normal and stable parent.

It is really upsetting to realize that someone you have children with and shared the most intimate parts of your life with is willing to put a child through such an invasive process. Attorneys are indeed complicit in this; my STBX has been played by his attorney who said it's "no big deal" and "standard". STBX knows so little that he didn't even realize that our children would be involved in it. I hate to be cynical or sound like an instagram divorce influencer conspiracist (yes, that's a thing), but there are a lot of people happy to make a lot of money in the name of "best interests of the children" while having anything but that in mind.

You are not cynical. ‘Family law’ is considered a ‘growth industry’ within the legal industry. The move away from women almost automatically receiving custody has been tremendously financially beneficial to a lot of people bc now you have two people want to fight it out, and the law is on the side of men who think they should have custody even if they didn’t do any child rearing before the separation. It’s also better to have more custody time for $$ reasons also. I’m not saying men can’t be primary caregivers btw or that there aren’t bad mothers. Personally I think the auto presumption (absent documented/CPS level abuse or neglect) should be that the primary caregiver prior to the separation should continue to be the primary caregiver and the other parent gets access. The end.

The problem is that the industry is making too much money to advocate for that. Why would they

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

These parenting evaluations- called custody evaluations or ‘forensics’ usually end up being extremely disappointing to the normal parent and often backfire. These psychologists fleece people, and often write sloppy reports that are extremely hard to challenge. These evaluations are not recommended by pro child groups, and they can end up costing tens of thousands of dollars, and extend the litigation so more legal fees are paid too. Please do not recommend these to others.

Agree.

Skip the govt social worker flying monkey.

Also skip the $50k private evals.

The writing is on the way, no documented physical abuse to the kids, then you need a strategy to walk the dysfunctional narc back from 50/50.

If your spouse's attorney files a motion ordering it, you can't skip it or worse, if you don't agree it's my understanding that you would have to go the public route and do an evaluation through the courts. So you need to be prepared, especially if they have the financial means to spend freely on legal fun and games. Find an attorney who has experience and can prepare you for the process, because the more disordered your spouse is, the more likely that are to try to flip the script and throw every possible bit of an evaluation at you. It's terrifying, but if you're scared or worried that's probably a sign that you are a normal and stable parent.

It is really upsetting to realize that someone you have children with and shared the most intimate parts of your life with is willing to put a child through such an invasive process. Attorneys are indeed complicit in this; my STBX has been played by his attorney who said it's "no big deal" and "standard". STBX knows so little that he didn't even realize that our children would be involved in it. I hate to be cynical or sound like an instagram divorce influencer conspiracist (yes, that's a thing), but there are a lot of people happy to make a lot of money in the name of "best interests of the children" while having anything but that in mind.

You are not cynical. ‘Family law’ is considered a ‘growth industry’ within the legal industry. The move away from women almost automatically receiving custody has been tremendously financially beneficial to a lot of people bc now you have two people want to fight it out, and the law is on the side of men who think they should have custody even if they didn’t do any child rearing before the separation. It’s also better to have more custody time for $$ reasons also. I’m not saying men can’t be primary caregivers btw or that there aren’t bad mothers. Personally I think the auto presumption (absent documented/CPS level abuse or neglect) should be that the primary caregiver prior to the separation should continue to be the primary caregiver and the other parent gets access. The end.

The problem is that the industry is making too much money to advocate for that. Why would they

Do you have an idea of why the law is on the side of men or do you mean just that it’s swung away from favoring mothers?

My limited experience so far as a mother in the family court system is that a man is given the benefit of the doubt and assumed to have potential, and any caregiving he hasn’t done isn’t held against him. Whereas the mother isn’t given credit for anything she has done and if she is trying to protect her kids she’s accused of gatekeeping or even alienation.

It feels pointless and sometimes hopeless, especially when you’re in proceedings against a husband who has been checked out and has mental issues.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[img]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

These parenting evaluations- called custody evaluations or ‘forensics’ usually end up being extremely disappointing to the normal parent and often backfire. These psychologists fleece people, and often write sloppy reports that are extremely hard to challenge. These evaluations are not recommended by pro child groups, and they can end up costing tens of thousands of dollars, and extend the litigation so more legal fees are paid too. Please do not recommend these to others.

Agree.

Skip the govt social worker flying monkey.

Also skip the $50k private evals.

The writing is on the way, no documented physical abuse to the kids, then you need a strategy to walk the dysfunctional narc back from 50/50.

If your spouse's attorney files a motion ordering it, you can't skip it or worse, if you don't agree it's my understanding that you would have to go the public route and do an evaluation through the courts. So you need to be prepared, especially if they have the financial means to spend freely on legal fun and games. Find an attorney who has experience and can prepare you for the process, because the more disordered your spouse is, the more likely that are to try to flip the script and throw every possible bit of an evaluation at you. It's terrifying, but if you're scared or worried that's probably a sign that you are a normal and stable parent.

It is really upsetting to realize that someone you have children with and shared the most intimate parts of your life with is willing to put a child through such an invasive process. Attorneys are indeed complicit in this; my STBX has been played by his attorney who said it's "no big deal" and "standard". STBX knows so little that he didn't even realize that our children would be involved in it. I hate to be cynical or sound like an instagram divorce influencer conspiracist (yes, that's a thing), but there are a lot of people happy to make a lot of money in the name of "best interests of the children" while having anything but that in mind.

ITA about your last comment. I’m a lawyer so I really wanted to avoid litigation… boy howdy there are a lot of people out there willing to take your money who have no professional boundaries. Like the “collaborative divorce” idea wherein the divorcing couple would have a lawyer each, a mediator, a therapist, and a financial advisor on the “team”. That’s like $5000/hr in professional services! All bets are off if you are divorcing a mentally unstable person, but even in that case, my viewpoint is now that just going straight to a lawyer to write up a reasonable settlement offer is the best course of action.

Dp. Yes, but these types often refuse to do that.

To respond to the question above, if your ex proposes an evaluation, you don’t have to acquiesce. The judge might end up ordering one anyway, but initially af least you can say you don’t consent

No, you don’t. But you need to think through your strategy here and maintain control where you can.

If they have the money or you have they money, and if your attorney feels that their attorney is open for 1:1 discussion of your evaluator choice, I would consent once you get them to agree to a short list of your evaluators.

Otherwise it risks going into the courts and you could have a court-assigned evaluator and you lose even more control. Or worse, their attorney could say, fine, if you won’t agree to an evaluation then we’re scheduling a hearing on temporary orders for a parenting plan and temporary financial orders. You really don’t want that unless you’re cool with strict 50/50 custody in the standard way set by your county (which might be 5 pm Friday to 5 pm the next Friday or you’re in contempt, or who knows what else), child support off the state minimum tables, etc. If you are already strategizing here, I’m guessing you are not the kind of person who is ok with those outcomes.

This really isn’t strategy. Are you an FE?

Again, anyone can propose anything. You don’t have to acquiesce to any of it. As far as evaluations, the evaluators come off a list of ‘approved evaluators’. Judges almost always let the parties work together to choose one or at least a short list, with the judge being the tie breaker if you can’t agree.

The others side attorney can suggest a hearing on a temp plan at any time. Agreeing or not agreeing to a forensic does not change that. You can also be the one who suggests temp orders.

I’ve seen judges decline to order forensics a number of times when the parties don’t agree on needing one. I would never recommend that someone consent except in very unusual circumstances bc then you’ve essentially given up your right to appeal if the report is adverse. And it can be. Those MMPI will be given to both parties, and everyone has some pathology- everyone. And a forensic and a judge can choose which traits to focus on. And again, if you’re in the world of having a forensic, 9.99 times out of 10, you have been identified as having $$$. Thats what these reports are about more than anything. That and kicking the can down the road so the judge doesn’t have to decide what to do about the mess in front of them.

Funny how poor or LMC people in custody cases don’t often need forensics!

I think this really varies by the culture of different jurisdictions. We have never called it forensics where I’ve worked but I hear where you are coming from.

Having worked in several counties on both coasts, the approach I’ve seen to parenting evaluations (both private and court-ordered) and how they’re managed in cases and by attorneys has been quite different and gives truths to both types of comments that are popping up here.

Take time during your initial consults to understand what is normal practice in your county and then really work with your attorney to understand the best path forward. You also have to balance whatever your spouse has in their records with what you have going on. If your spouse has a known and documented history of serious mental health issues, non-compliance, etc., at some point you need to decide that the trade off of exposing some minor sh-t on your side is worth it to protect your kids from major sh-t on their side.

This is why you really need an attorney to dig through your situation and talk you through how your county typically approaches similar cases before jumping in headfirst and agreeing to a parenting evaluation and screwing yourself, or blowing it off and maybe painting yourself into a worse corner.

People are asking good questions here. There aren’t good choices but there can be bad choices, if that makes sense.

And you also have to think about the end game, right? Is it worth it to risk all of this when dad will get custody time no matter what? Vs just coming up with a face-saving offer?

Right. Scary to think about.

In my case: I know my STBX and I know that eventually he gets tired and bored. I’m banking on him losing interest or focus in this process as it demands more of him and he loses momentum. He assumed I would fold quickly and now he’s confused. I’ve also studied a lot of game theory. On paper I’ve accounted for the risk to the extent that I can, and it outweighs the downsides of a guaranteed face-saving offer that I know he would take. But this is real life, not math, and anything could happen.

What kind of risks are you concerned about?

Risk of what the likely outcome will be if we go to court.

Is there a risk? I mean I get the fact that the outcome could very well be 50-50 but I don’t see it being less than that for you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

These parenting evaluations- called custody evaluations or ‘forensics’ usually end up being extremely disappointing to the normal parent and often backfire. These psychologists fleece people, and often write sloppy reports that are extremely hard to challenge. These evaluations are not recommended by pro child groups, and they can end up costing tens of thousands of dollars, and extend the litigation so more legal fees are paid too. Please do not recommend these to others.

What is the reason pro child groups are against evaluations?

Because they rarely seem to benefit children or families, and they aren’t particularly regulated so they can be a total crap shoot.

Crazily the courts don’t even care to track and see how families that have undergone them turn out.

They have several benefits - most of which have nothing to do with the families. 1, they allow the court to move your case down the line, freeing up time and hoping you’ll both get tired and settle. This avoids a trial and the judge being appealed. If there was CPS level abuse, you wouldn’t be doing a forensic, there’d be other interventions, and CPS investigations follow precise rules and frankly are far more legitimate than any psych report. So a family assigned a forensic evaluation is generally viewed by all in the system as being made up of two ‘high conflict’ parents (both of you) and honestly also high net worth bc these tend to be very expensive, and the judge is hoping you just go away. The lawyers don’t mind bc you’re paying them while this all happens. I’m a lawyer but let’s be honest. Lawyers make the most when the cases drag on.

2. The forensic psych - often a psych without a profitable private practice- gets a huge paycheck for work they do mostly on their own schedule and largely unsupervised. There are very few clear rules about ‘forensics’ and how they are to be conducted. A shocking number of these court approved psych have little to no training in how to interview children, as example. It’s shockingly unregulated.

NP. In a similar situation with the posters here unfortunately. Since you’re in the legal field - what constitutes CPS level abuse? I would imagine rough handling an elementary school child and displaying scary anger around them on a repeated basis (yelling, disparaging remarks, slamming doors, throwing objects - but not at them) does not qualify, but would appreciate an expert opinion.

You can google the state definitions but essentially it needs to be serious physical or emotional harm or putting them at imminent risk of harm.

Not just ‘dad squeezed my arm’

An attorney I spoke with mentioned that even pushing a kid into a wall (with no injuries, only a scare) does not make a difference. Only real physical injuries apparently do.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

These parenting evaluations- called custody evaluations or ‘forensics’ usually end up being extremely disappointing to the normal parent and often backfire. These psychologists fleece people, and often write sloppy reports that are extremely hard to challenge. These evaluations are not recommended by pro child groups, and they can end up costing tens of thousands of dollars, and extend the litigation so more legal fees are paid too. Please do not recommend these to others.

What is the reason pro child groups are against evaluations?

Because they rarely seem to benefit children or families, and they aren’t particularly regulated so they can be a total crap shoot.

Crazily the courts don’t even care to track and see how families that have undergone them turn out.

They have several benefits - most of which have nothing to do with the families. 1, they allow the court to move your case down the line, freeing up time and hoping you’ll both get tired and settle. This avoids a trial and the judge being appealed. If there was CPS level abuse, you wouldn’t be doing a forensic, there’d be other interventions, and CPS investigations follow precise rules and frankly are far more legitimate than any psych report. So a family assigned a forensic evaluation is generally viewed by all in the system as being made up of two ‘high conflict’ parents (both of you) and honestly also high net worth bc these tend to be very expensive, and the judge is hoping you just go away. The lawyers don’t mind bc you’re paying them while this all happens. I’m a lawyer but let’s be honest. Lawyers make the most when the cases drag on.

2. The forensic psych - often a psych without a profitable private practice- gets a huge paycheck for work they do mostly on their own schedule and largely unsupervised. There are very few clear rules about ‘forensics’ and how they are to be conducted. A shocking number of these court approved psych have little to no training in how to interview children, as example. It’s shockingly unregulated.

NP. In a similar situation with the posters here unfortunately. Since you’re in the legal field - what constitutes CPS level abuse? I would imagine rough handling an elementary school child and displaying scary anger around them on a repeated basis (yelling, disparaging remarks, slamming doors, throwing objects - but not at them) does not qualify, but would appreciate an expert opinion.

You can google the state definitions but essentially it needs to be serious physical or emotional harm or putting them at imminent risk of harm.

Not just ‘dad squeezed my arm’

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[img]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

These parenting evaluations- called custody evaluations or ‘forensics’ usually end up being extremely disappointing to the normal parent and often backfire. These psychologists fleece people, and often write sloppy reports that are extremely hard to challenge. These evaluations are not recommended by pro child groups, and they can end up costing tens of thousands of dollars, and extend the litigation so more legal fees are paid too. Please do not recommend these to others.

Agree.

Skip the govt social worker flying monkey.

Also skip the $50k private evals.

The writing is on the way, no documented physical abuse to the kids, then you need a strategy to walk the dysfunctional narc back from 50/50.

If your spouse's attorney files a motion ordering it, you can't skip it or worse, if you don't agree it's my understanding that you would have to go the public route and do an evaluation through the courts. So you need to be prepared, especially if they have the financial means to spend freely on legal fun and games. Find an attorney who has experience and can prepare you for the process, because the more disordered your spouse is, the more likely that are to try to flip the script and throw every possible bit of an evaluation at you. It's terrifying, but if you're scared or worried that's probably a sign that you are a normal and stable parent.

It is really upsetting to realize that someone you have children with and shared the most intimate parts of your life with is willing to put a child through such an invasive process. Attorneys are indeed complicit in this; my STBX has been played by his attorney who said it's "no big deal" and "standard". STBX knows so little that he didn't even realize that our children would be involved in it. I hate to be cynical or sound like an instagram divorce influencer conspiracist (yes, that's a thing), but there are a lot of people happy to make a lot of money in the name of "best interests of the children" while having anything but that in mind.

ITA about your last comment. I’m a lawyer so I really wanted to avoid litigation… boy howdy there are a lot of people out there willing to take your money who have no professional boundaries. Like the “collaborative divorce” idea wherein the divorcing couple would have a lawyer each, a mediator, a therapist, and a financial advisor on the “team”. That’s like $5000/hr in professional services! All bets are off if you are divorcing a mentally unstable person, but even in that case, my viewpoint is now that just going straight to a lawyer to write up a reasonable settlement offer is the best course of action.

Dp. Yes, but these types often refuse to do that.

To respond to the question above, if your ex proposes an evaluation, you don’t have to acquiesce. The judge might end up ordering one anyway, but initially af least you can say you don’t consent

No, you don’t. But you need to think through your strategy here and maintain control where you can.

If they have the money or you have they money, and if your attorney feels that their attorney is open for 1:1 discussion of your evaluator choice, I would consent once you get them to agree to a short list of your evaluators.

Otherwise it risks going into the courts and you could have a court-assigned evaluator and you lose even more control. Or worse, their attorney could say, fine, if you won’t agree to an evaluation then we’re scheduling a hearing on temporary orders for a parenting plan and temporary financial orders. You really don’t want that unless you’re cool with strict 50/50 custody in the standard way set by your county (which might be 5 pm Friday to 5 pm the next Friday or you’re in contempt, or who knows what else), child support off the state minimum tables, etc. If you are already strategizing here, I’m guessing you are not the kind of person who is ok with those outcomes.

This really isn’t strategy. Are you an FE?

Again, anyone can propose anything. You don’t have to acquiesce to any of it. As far as evaluations, the evaluators come off a list of ‘approved evaluators’. Judges almost always let the parties work together to choose one or at least a short list, with the judge being the tie breaker if you can’t agree.

The others side attorney can suggest a hearing on a temp plan at any time. Agreeing or not agreeing to a forensic does not change that. You can also be the one who suggests temp orders.

I’ve seen judges decline to order forensics a number of times when the parties don’t agree on needing one. I would never recommend that someone consent except in very unusual circumstances bc then you’ve essentially given up your right to appeal if the report is adverse. And it can be. Those MMPI will be given to both parties, and everyone has some pathology- everyone. And a forensic and a judge can choose which traits to focus on. And again, if you’re in the world of having a forensic, 9.99 times out of 10, you have been identified as having $$$. Thats what these reports are about more than anything. That and kicking the can down the road so the judge doesn’t have to decide what to do about the mess in front of them.

Funny how poor or LMC people in custody cases don’t often need forensics!

I think this really varies by the culture of different jurisdictions. We have never called it forensics where I’ve worked but I hear where you are coming from.

Having worked in several counties on both coasts, the approach I’ve seen to parenting evaluations (both private and court-ordered) and how they’re managed in cases and by attorneys has been quite different and gives truths to both types of comments that are popping up here.

Take time during your initial consults to understand what is normal practice in your county and then really work with your attorney to understand the best path forward. You also have to balance whatever your spouse has in their records with what you have going on. If your spouse has a known and documented history of serious mental health issues, non-compliance, etc., at some point you need to decide that the trade off of exposing some minor sh-t on your side is worth it to protect your kids from major sh-t on their side.

This is why you really need an attorney to dig through your situation and talk you through how your county typically approaches similar cases before jumping in headfirst and agreeing to a parenting evaluation and screwing yourself, or blowing it off and maybe painting yourself into a worse corner.

People are asking good questions here. There aren’t good choices but there can be bad choices, if that makes sense.

And you also have to think about the end game, right? Is it worth it to risk all of this when dad will get custody time no matter what? Vs just coming up with a face-saving offer?

Right. Scary to think about.

In my case: I know my STBX and I know that eventually he gets tired and bored. I’m banking on him losing interest or focus in this process as it demands more of him and he loses momentum. He assumed I would fold quickly and now he’s confused. I’ve also studied a lot of game theory. On paper I’ve accounted for the risk to the extent that I can, and it outweighs the downsides of a guaranteed face-saving offer that I know he would take. But this is real life, not math, and anything could happen.

What kind of risks are you concerned about?

Risk of what the likely outcome will be if we go to court.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Poster on 10/15/2025 @ 13:54, are you local, and, if so, would you mind sharing who your attorney is?

Anyone else out there in this situation with a good lawyer to recommend for dealing with a narc, especially in NoVa?

I think you’re asking me and I’m not local, but there seem to be at least 1-2 attorneys on this thread so I am hoping one of them can pop in with a recommendation for you.

I found mine not by looking for someone with experience specifically with narcissism (that seems to attract a certain kind of attorney that wasn’t the type I was looking for) but rather experience with litigation, high-conflict, and high net-worth divorce in that order. Don’t be afraid to talk to acquaintances who work way outside of family law, even if you have to fib and say it’s for a friend- my best referrals were from attorneys in random areas of practice.

One I got to initial consults, that’s when I started asking about mental health issues, how that might impact custody, etc. If you can, try to complete at least 3-4 legal consults at a slow pace to get the lay of the land and really understand how different attorneys operate.

Even though I work with attorneys daily in my job, I did not understand how to judge attorney’s working personalities within family law until many intake calls, forms, and maybe 4 consults. It feels like a very different corner of the legal world from anything I have encountered in my professional career and that made it hard to make a personal representation decision.

Agree with the above.

I was MoCo when divorcing a high income narc with several mental disorder Dxs (not that those matter in family court! Nor nanny cams of verbal abuse. Or recordings.) Some attys websites say experience with trauma or abuse or mental disorder cases.

One i met with was clearly going to fight everything and run up the bill.
Another was very strategic and laid out five options, including changing jobs to another state and moving with the kids first.
Two more were recommended by my PhD psychologist - one knew judges and wanted to go the restraining order route to kick things off when only certain judges would be working. The fourth was low conflict, feed the ego, lay low, mediate strategy— he actually worked several pro bono abuse divorce cases each year with a shelter and had a lot of tips.

Finally, the pediatrician documented neglect and “accidents” for at least two incidents plus had called CPS, I now know.
FYI, if you know he’s a danger to the kids and they go out and do dumb stuff at 7am and come back injured, you are complicit.
FYI, most therapists will not document your sessions nor are willing to take the stand in family court — that doesn’t drive their billable hours. But the ones who understand the hell you are suffering through will. I had an intern at all my 6 mos of sessions typing everything down. I’d imagine they’d use whisperly or AI speak to text now if you consented.

Good luck. Get the kids therapy too, but they are often in people pleaser mode to the bully parent and healthy parent. It’s a sad situation with no good options. Women are so damn strong. We have to be.

My child is definitely in people pleaser mode to the bully.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[img]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

These parenting evaluations- called custody evaluations or ‘forensics’ usually end up being extremely disappointing to the normal parent and often backfire. These psychologists fleece people, and often write sloppy reports that are extremely hard to challenge. These evaluations are not recommended by pro child groups, and they can end up costing tens of thousands of dollars, and extend the litigation so more legal fees are paid too. Please do not recommend these to others.

Agree.

Skip the govt social worker flying monkey.

Also skip the $50k private evals.

The writing is on the way, no documented physical abuse to the kids, then you need a strategy to walk the dysfunctional narc back from 50/50.

If your spouse's attorney files a motion ordering it, you can't skip it or worse, if you don't agree it's my understanding that you would have to go the public route and do an evaluation through the courts. So you need to be prepared, especially if they have the financial means to spend freely on legal fun and games. Find an attorney who has experience and can prepare you for the process, because the more disordered your spouse is, the more likely that are to try to flip the script and throw every possible bit of an evaluation at you. It's terrifying, but if you're scared or worried that's probably a sign that you are a normal and stable parent.

It is really upsetting to realize that someone you have children with and shared the most intimate parts of your life with is willing to put a child through such an invasive process. Attorneys are indeed complicit in this; my STBX has been played by his attorney who said it's "no big deal" and "standard". STBX knows so little that he didn't even realize that our children would be involved in it. I hate to be cynical or sound like an instagram divorce influencer conspiracist (yes, that's a thing), but there are a lot of people happy to make a lot of money in the name of "best interests of the children" while having anything but that in mind.

ITA about your last comment. I’m a lawyer so I really wanted to avoid litigation… boy howdy there are a lot of people out there willing to take your money who have no professional boundaries. Like the “collaborative divorce” idea wherein the divorcing couple would have a lawyer each, a mediator, a therapist, and a financial advisor on the “team”. That’s like $5000/hr in professional services! All bets are off if you are divorcing a mentally unstable person, but even in that case, my viewpoint is now that just going straight to a lawyer to write up a reasonable settlement offer is the best course of action.

Dp. Yes, but these types often refuse to do that.

To respond to the question above, if your ex proposes an evaluation, you don’t have to acquiesce. The judge might end up ordering one anyway, but initially af least you can say you don’t consent

No, you don’t. But you need to think through your strategy here and maintain control where you can.

If they have the money or you have they money, and if your attorney feels that their attorney is open for 1:1 discussion of your evaluator choice, I would consent once you get them to agree to a short list of your evaluators.

Otherwise it risks going into the courts and you could have a court-assigned evaluator and you lose even more control. Or worse, their attorney could say, fine, if you won’t agree to an evaluation then we’re scheduling a hearing on temporary orders for a parenting plan and temporary financial orders. You really don’t want that unless you’re cool with strict 50/50 custody in the standard way set by your county (which might be 5 pm Friday to 5 pm the next Friday or you’re in contempt, or who knows what else), child support off the state minimum tables, etc. If you are already strategizing here, I’m guessing you are not the kind of person who is ok with those outcomes.

This really isn’t strategy. Are you an FE?

Again, anyone can propose anything. You don’t have to acquiesce to any of it. As far as evaluations, the evaluators come off a list of ‘approved evaluators’. Judges almost always let the parties work together to choose one or at least a short list, with the judge being the tie breaker if you can’t agree.

The others side attorney can suggest a hearing on a temp plan at any time. Agreeing or not agreeing to a forensic does not change that. You can also be the one who suggests temp orders.

I’ve seen judges decline to order forensics a number of times when the parties don’t agree on needing one. I would never recommend that someone consent except in very unusual circumstances bc then you’ve essentially given up your right to appeal if the report is adverse. And it can be. Those MMPI will be given to both parties, and everyone has some pathology- everyone. And a forensic and a judge can choose which traits to focus on. And again, if you’re in the world of having a forensic, 9.99 times out of 10, you have been identified as having $$$. Thats what these reports are about more than anything. That and kicking the can down the road so the judge doesn’t have to decide what to do about the mess in front of them.

Funny how poor or LMC people in custody cases don’t often need forensics!

I think this really varies by the culture of different jurisdictions. We have never called it forensics where I’ve worked but I hear where you are coming from.

Having worked in several counties on both coasts, the approach I’ve seen to parenting evaluations (both private and court-ordered) and how they’re managed in cases and by attorneys has been quite different and gives truths to both types of comments that are popping up here.

Take time during your initial consults to understand what is normal practice in your county and then really work with your attorney to understand the best path forward. You also have to balance whatever your spouse has in their records with what you have going on. If your spouse has a known and documented history of serious mental health issues, non-compliance, etc., at some point you need to decide that the trade off of exposing some minor sh-t on your side is worth it to protect your kids from major sh-t on their side.

This is why you really need an attorney to dig through your situation and talk you through how your county typically approaches similar cases before jumping in headfirst and agreeing to a parenting evaluation and screwing yourself, or blowing it off and maybe painting yourself into a worse corner.

People are asking good questions here. There aren’t good choices but there can be bad choices, if that makes sense.

And you also have to think about the end game, right? Is it worth it to risk all of this when dad will get custody time no matter what? Vs just coming up with a face-saving offer?

Right. Scary to think about.

In my case: I know my STBX and I know that eventually he gets tired and bored. I’m banking on him losing interest or focus in this process as it demands more of him and he loses momentum. He assumed I would fold quickly and now he’s confused. I’ve also studied a lot of game theory. On paper I’ve accounted for the risk to the extent that I can, and it outweighs the downsides of a guaranteed face-saving offer that I know he would take. But this is real life, not math, and anything could happen.

What kind of risks are you concerned about?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Poster on 10/15/2025 @ 13:54, are you local, and, if so, would you mind sharing who your attorney is?

Anyone else out there in this situation with a good lawyer to recommend for dealing with a narc, especially in NoVa?

I think you’re asking me and I’m not local, but there seem to be at least 1-2 attorneys on this thread so I am hoping one of them can pop in with a recommendation for you.

I found mine not by looking for someone with experience specifically with narcissism (that seems to attract a certain kind of attorney that wasn’t the type I was looking for) but rather experience with litigation, high-conflict, and high net-worth divorce in that order. Don’t be afraid to talk to acquaintances who work way outside of family law, even if you have to fib and say it’s for a friend- my best referrals were from attorneys in random areas of practice.

One I got to initial consults, that’s when I started asking about mental health issues, how that might impact custody, etc. If you can, try to complete at least 3-4 legal consults at a slow pace to get the lay of the land and really understand how different attorneys operate.

Even though I work with attorneys daily in my job, I did not understand how to judge attorney’s working personalities within family law until many intake calls, forms, and maybe 4 consults. It feels like a very different corner of the legal world from anything I have encountered in my professional career and that made it hard to make a personal representation decision.

Agree with the above.

I was MoCo when divorcing a high income narc with several mental disorder Dxs (not that those matter in family court! Nor nanny cams of verbal abuse. Or recordings.) Some attys websites say experience with trauma or abuse or mental disorder cases.

One i met with was clearly going to fight everything and run up the bill.
Another was very strategic and laid out five options, including changing jobs to another state and moving with the kids first.
Two more were recommended by my PhD psychologist - one knew judges and wanted to go the restraining order route to kick things off when only certain judges would be working. The fourth was low conflict, feed the ego, lay low, mediate strategy— he actually worked several pro bono abuse divorce cases each year with a shelter and had a lot of tips.

Finally, the pediatrician documented neglect and “accidents” for at least two incidents plus had called CPS, I now know.
FYI, if you know he’s a danger to the kids and they go out and do dumb stuff at 7am and come back injured, you are complicit.
FYI, most therapists will not document your sessions nor are willing to take the stand in family court — that doesn’t drive their billable hours. But the ones who understand the hell you are suffering through will. I had an intern at all my 6 mos of sessions typing everything down. I’d imagine they’d use whisperly or AI speak to text now if you consented.

Good luck. Get the kids therapy too, but they are often in people pleaser mode to the bully parent and healthy parent. It’s a sad situation with no good options. Women are so damn strong. We have to be.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[img]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

These parenting evaluations- called custody evaluations or ‘forensics’ usually end up being extremely disappointing to the normal parent and often backfire. These psychologists fleece people, and often write sloppy reports that are extremely hard to challenge. These evaluations are not recommended by pro child groups, and they can end up costing tens of thousands of dollars, and extend the litigation so more legal fees are paid too. Please do not recommend these to others.

Agree.

Skip the govt social worker flying monkey.

Also skip the $50k private evals.

The writing is on the way, no documented physical abuse to the kids, then you need a strategy to walk the dysfunctional narc back from 50/50.

If your spouse's attorney files a motion ordering it, you can't skip it or worse, if you don't agree it's my understanding that you would have to go the public route and do an evaluation through the courts. So you need to be prepared, especially if they have the financial means to spend freely on legal fun and games. Find an attorney who has experience and can prepare you for the process, because the more disordered your spouse is, the more likely that are to try to flip the script and throw every possible bit of an evaluation at you. It's terrifying, but if you're scared or worried that's probably a sign that you are a normal and stable parent.

It is really upsetting to realize that someone you have children with and shared the most intimate parts of your life with is willing to put a child through such an invasive process. Attorneys are indeed complicit in this; my STBX has been played by his attorney who said it's "no big deal" and "standard". STBX knows so little that he didn't even realize that our children would be involved in it. I hate to be cynical or sound like an instagram divorce influencer conspiracist (yes, that's a thing), but there are a lot of people happy to make a lot of money in the name of "best interests of the children" while having anything but that in mind.

ITA about your last comment. I’m a lawyer so I really wanted to avoid litigation… boy howdy there are a lot of people out there willing to take your money who have no professional boundaries. Like the “collaborative divorce” idea wherein the divorcing couple would have a lawyer each, a mediator, a therapist, and a financial advisor on the “team”. That’s like $5000/hr in professional services! All bets are off if you are divorcing a mentally unstable person, but even in that case, my viewpoint is now that just going straight to a lawyer to write up a reasonable settlement offer is the best course of action.

Dp. Yes, but these types often refuse to do that.

To respond to the question above, if your ex proposes an evaluation, you don’t have to acquiesce. The judge might end up ordering one anyway, but initially af least you can say you don’t consent

No, you don’t. But you need to think through your strategy here and maintain control where you can.

If they have the money or you have they money, and if your attorney feels that their attorney is open for 1:1 discussion of your evaluator choice, I would consent once you get them to agree to a short list of your evaluators.

Otherwise it risks going into the courts and you could have a court-assigned evaluator and you lose even more control. Or worse, their attorney could say, fine, if you won’t agree to an evaluation then we’re scheduling a hearing on temporary orders for a parenting plan and temporary financial orders. You really don’t want that unless you’re cool with strict 50/50 custody in the standard way set by your county (which might be 5 pm Friday to 5 pm the next Friday or you’re in contempt, or who knows what else), child support off the state minimum tables, etc. If you are already strategizing here, I’m guessing you are not the kind of person who is ok with those outcomes.

This really isn’t strategy. Are you an FE?

Again, anyone can propose anything. You don’t have to acquiesce to any of it. As far as evaluations, the evaluators come off a list of ‘approved evaluators’. Judges almost always let the parties work together to choose one or at least a short list, with the judge being the tie breaker if you can’t agree.

The others side attorney can suggest a hearing on a temp plan at any time. Agreeing or not agreeing to a forensic does not change that. You can also be the one who suggests temp orders.

I’ve seen judges decline to order forensics a number of times when the parties don’t agree on needing one. I would never recommend that someone consent except in very unusual circumstances bc then you’ve essentially given up your right to appeal if the report is adverse. And it can be. Those MMPI will be given to both parties, and everyone has some pathology- everyone. And a forensic and a judge can choose which traits to focus on. And again, if you’re in the world of having a forensic, 9.99 times out of 10, you have been identified as having $$$. Thats what these reports are about more than anything. That and kicking the can down the road so the judge doesn’t have to decide what to do about the mess in front of them.

Funny how poor or LMC people in custody cases don’t often need forensics!

I think this really varies by the culture of different jurisdictions. We have never called it forensics where I’ve worked but I hear where you are coming from.

Having worked in several counties on both coasts, the approach I’ve seen to parenting evaluations (both private and court-ordered) and how they’re managed in cases and by attorneys has been quite different and gives truths to both types of comments that are popping up here.

Take time during your initial consults to understand what is normal practice in your county and then really work with your attorney to understand the best path forward. You also have to balance whatever your spouse has in their records with what you have going on. If your spouse has a known and documented history of serious mental health issues, non-compliance, etc., at some point you need to decide that the trade off of exposing some minor sh-t on your side is worth it to protect your kids from major sh-t on their side.

This is why you really need an attorney to dig through your situation and talk you through how your county typically approaches similar cases before jumping in headfirst and agreeing to a parenting evaluation and screwing yourself, or blowing it off and maybe painting yourself into a worse corner.

People are asking good questions here. There aren’t good choices but there can be bad choices, if that makes sense.

And you also have to think about the end game, right? Is it worth it to risk all of this when dad will get custody time no matter what? Vs just coming up with a face-saving offer?

Right. Scary to think about.

In my case: I know my STBX and I know that eventually he gets tired and bored. I’m banking on him losing interest or focus in this process as it demands more of him and he loses momentum. He assumed I would fold quickly and now he’s confused. I’ve also studied a lot of game theory. On paper I’ve accounted for the risk to the extent that I can, and it outweighs the downsides of a guaranteed face-saving offer that I know he would take. But this is real life, not math, and anything could happen.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Poster on 10/15/2025 @ 13:54, are you local, and, if so, would you mind sharing who your attorney is?

Anyone else out there in this situation with a good lawyer to recommend for dealing with a narc, especially in NoVa?

I think you’re asking me and I’m not local, but there seem to be at least 1-2 attorneys on this thread so I am hoping one of them can pop in with a recommendation for you.

I found mine not by looking for someone with experience specifically with narcissism (that seems to attract a certain kind of attorney that wasn’t the type I was looking for) but rather experience with litigation, high-conflict, and high net-worth divorce in that order. Don’t be afraid to talk to acquaintances who work way outside of family law, even if you have to fib and say it’s for a friend- my best referrals were from attorneys in random areas of practice.

One I got to initial consults, that’s when I started asking about mental health issues, how that might impact custody, etc. If you can, try to complete at least 3-4 legal consults at a slow pace to get the lay of the land and really understand how different attorneys operate.

Even though I work with attorneys daily in my job, I did not understand how to judge attorney’s working personalities within family law until many intake calls, forms, and maybe 4 consults. It feels like a very different corner of the legal world from anything I have encountered in my professional career and that made it hard to make a personal representation decision.

Agree with the above.

I was MoCo when divorcing a high income narc with several mental disorder Dxs (not that those matter in family court! Nor nanny cams of verbal abuse. Or recordings.) Some attys websites say experience with trauma or abuse or mental disorder cases.

One i met with was clearly going to fight everything and run up the bill.
Another was very strategic and laid out five options, including changing jobs to another state and moving with the kids first.
Two more were recommended by my PhD psychologist - one knew judges and wanted to go the restraining order route to kick things off when only certain judges would be working. The fourth was low conflict, feed the ego, lay low, mediate strategy— he actually worked several pro bono abuse divorce cases each year with a shelter and had a lot of tips.

Finally, the pediatrician documented neglect and “accidents” for at least two incidents plus had called CPS, I now know.
FYI, if you know he’s a danger to the kids and they go out and do dumb stuff at 7am and come back injured, you are complicit.
FYI, most therapists will not document your sessions nor are willing to take the stand in family court — that doesn’t drive their billable hours. But the ones who understand the hell you are suffering through will. I had an intern at all my 6 mos of sessions typing everything down. I’d imagine they’d use whisperly or AI speak to text now if you consented.

Good luck. Get the kids therapy too, but they are often in people pleaser mode to the bully parent and healthy parent. It’s a sad situation with no good options. Women are so damn strong. We have to be.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Poster on 10/15/2025 @ 13:54, are you local, and, if so, would you mind sharing who your attorney is?

Anyone else out there in this situation with a good lawyer to recommend for dealing with a narc, especially in NoVa?

I think you’re asking me and I’m not local, but there seem to be at least 1-2 attorneys on this thread so I am hoping one of them can pop in with a recommendation for you.

I found mine not by looking for someone with experience specifically with narcissism (that seems to attract a certain kind of attorney that wasn’t the type I was looking for) but rather experience with litigation, high-conflict, and high net-worth divorce in that order. Don’t be afraid to talk to acquaintances who work way outside of family law, even if you have to fib and say it’s for a friend- my best referrals were from attorneys in random areas of practice.

One I got to initial consults, that’s when I started asking about mental health issues, how that might impact custody, etc. If you can, try to complete at least 3-4 legal consults at a slow pace to get the lay of the land and really understand how different attorneys operate.

Even though I work with attorneys daily in my job, I did not understand how to judge attorney’s working personalities within family law until many intake calls, forms, and maybe 4 consults. It feels like a very different corner of the legal world from anything I have encountered in my professional career and that made it hard to make a personal representation decision.

Anonymous wrote:PP What kinds of face-saving offers sometimes tend to work?

Anonymous wrote:Poster on 10/15/2025 @ 13:54, are you local, and, if so, would you mind sharing who your attorney is?

Anyone else out there in this situation with a good lawyer to recommend for dealing with a narc, especially in NoVa?