Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Basis has its middle school students take the standard grade level math test instead of the algebra and geometry tests. No other middle school does that. Lots of self-selection at Basis but still only about 60% of 5th graders (before any counseling out happens) got 4s and 5s. That is sort of interesting.

So even giving them the easier test option, their stats aren't that great!

You realize that BASIS is pure lottery, and 5th is the first year, so yeah, those scores tell very little about the other 6 years of schooling.

CAPE results by school can be viewed here: https://osse.dc.gov/dccape

That is how you can see all scores by grade and performance level. So you can see that, for example, 8.6 percent of BASIS 6th graders scored a 1 in 6th grade math.

And this shows that by 7th grade, 80% of students are scoring 4+, and 97% of students are scoring 3+.

https://www.empowerk12.org/data-dashboard-source/dc-parcc-dash

And there's another OSSE spreadsheet that shows that the 7th grade class is smaller than the 6th grade class. Coincidence?

Of course not. BASIS is an advanced school that is teaching Algebra 1 in 7th grade. Students who aren't ready for that are of course going to leave. But there are plenty of students who stay and do the work to catch up.

Can you explain why BASIS isn't having kids take the Algebra I CAPE?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Basis has its middle school students take the standard grade level math test instead of the algebra and geometry tests. No other middle school does that. Lots of self-selection at Basis but still only about 60% of 5th graders (before any counseling out happens) got 4s and 5s. That is sort of interesting.

So even giving them the easier test option, their stats aren't that great!

You realize that BASIS is pure lottery, and 5th is the first year, so yeah, those scores tell very little about the other 6 years of schooling.

CAPE results by school can be viewed here: https://osse.dc.gov/dccape

That is how you can see all scores by grade and performance level. So you can see that, for example, 8.6 percent of BASIS 6th graders scored a 1 in 6th grade math.

And this shows that by 7th grade, 80% of students are scoring 4+, and 97% of students are scoring 3+.

https://www.empowerk12.org/data-dashboard-source/dc-parcc-dash

And there's another OSSE spreadsheet that shows that the 7th grade class is smaller than the 6th grade class. Coincidence?

Of course not. BASIS is an advanced school that is teaching Algebra 1 in 7th grade. Students who aren't ready for that are of course going to leave. But there are plenty of students who stay and do the work to catch up.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Basis has its middle school students take the standard grade level math test instead of the algebra and geometry tests. No other middle school does that. Lots of self-selection at Basis but still only about 60% of 5th graders (before any counseling out happens) got 4s and 5s. That is sort of interesting.

So even giving them the easier test option, their stats aren't that great!

You realize that BASIS is pure lottery, and 5th is the first year, so yeah, those scores tell very little about the other 6 years of schooling.

CAPE results by school can be viewed here: https://osse.dc.gov/dccape

That is how you can see all scores by grade and performance level. So you can see that, for example, 8.6 percent of BASIS 6th graders scored a 1 in 6th grade math.

And this shows that by 7th grade, 80% of students are scoring 4+, and 97% of students are scoring 3+.

https://www.empowerk12.org/data-dashboard-source/dc-parcc-dash

And there's another OSSE spreadsheet that shows that the 7th grade class is smaller than the 6th grade class. Coincidence?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Basis has its middle school students take the standard grade level math test instead of the algebra and geometry tests. No other middle school does that. Lots of self-selection at Basis but still only about 60% of 5th graders (before any counseling out happens) got 4s and 5s. That is sort of interesting.

So even giving them the easier test option, their stats aren't that great!

You realize that BASIS is pure lottery, and 5th is the first year, so yeah, those scores tell very little about the other 6 years of schooling.

CAPE results by school can be viewed here: https://osse.dc.gov/dccape

That is how you can see all scores by grade and performance level. So you can see that, for example, 8.6 percent of BASIS 6th graders scored a 1 in 6th grade math.

And this shows that by 7th grade, 80% of students are scoring 4+, and 97% of students are scoring 3+.

https://www.empowerk12.org/data-dashboard-source/dc-parcc-dash

Are you saying that like it proves something?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Basis has its middle school students take the standard grade level math test instead of the algebra and geometry tests. No other middle school does that. Lots of self-selection at Basis but still only about 60% of 5th graders (before any counseling out happens) got 4s and 5s. That is sort of interesting.

So even giving them the easier test option, their stats aren't that great!

You realize that BASIS is pure lottery, and 5th is the first year, so yeah, those scores tell very little about the other 6 years of schooling.

CAPE results by school can be viewed here: https://osse.dc.gov/dccape

That is how you can see all scores by grade and performance level. So you can see that, for example, 8.6 percent of BASIS 6th graders scored a 1 in 6th grade math.

And this shows that by 7th grade, 80% of students are scoring 4+, and 97% of students are scoring 3+.

https://www.empowerk12.org/data-dashboard-source/dc-parcc-dash

Right, the ones who stayed and weren't required to repeat a grade

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Basis has its middle school students take the standard grade level math test instead of the algebra and geometry tests. No other middle school does that. Lots of self-selection at Basis but still only about 60% of 5th graders (before any counseling out happens) got 4s and 5s. That is sort of interesting.

So even giving them the easier test option, their stats aren't that great!

You realize that BASIS is pure lottery, and 5th is the first year, so yeah, those scores tell very little about the other 6 years of schooling.

CAPE results by school can be viewed here: https://osse.dc.gov/dccape

That is how you can see all scores by grade and performance level. So you can see that, for example, 8.6 percent of BASIS 6th graders scored a 1 in 6th grade math.

And this shows that by 7th grade, 80% of students are scoring 4+, and 97% of students are scoring 3+.

https://www.empowerk12.org/data-dashboard-source/dc-parcc-dash

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Basis has its middle school students take the standard grade level math test instead of the algebra and geometry tests. No other middle school does that. Lots of self-selection at Basis but still only about 60% of 5th graders (before any counseling out happens) got 4s and 5s. That is sort of interesting.

So even giving them the easier test option, their stats aren't that great!

You realize that BASIS is pure lottery, and 5th is the first year, so yeah, those scores tell very little about the other 6 years of schooling.

CAPE results by school can be viewed here: https://osse.dc.gov/dccape

That is how you can see all scores by grade and performance level. So you can see that, for example, 8.6 percent of BASIS 6th graders scored a 1 in 6th grade math.

The other factor for BASIS is that they weed out poor performers through comps frequently and early. This is a feature and not a bug for most families that choose it. But it's not exactly the same model as other schools use.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Basis has its middle school students take the standard grade level math test instead of the algebra and geometry tests. No other middle school does that. Lots of self-selection at Basis but still only about 60% of 5th graders (before any counseling out happens) got 4s and 5s. That is sort of interesting.

So even giving them the easier test option, their stats aren't that great!

You realize that BASIS is pure lottery, and 5th is the first year, so yeah, those scores tell very little about the other 6 years of schooling.

CAPE results by school can be viewed here: https://osse.dc.gov/dccape

That is how you can see all scores by grade and performance level. So you can see that, for example, 8.6 percent of BASIS 6th graders scored a 1 in 6th grade math.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Basis has its middle school students take the standard grade level math test instead of the algebra and geometry tests. No other middle school does that. Lots of self-selection at Basis but still only about 60% of 5th graders (before any counseling out happens) got 4s and 5s. That is sort of interesting.

So even giving them the easier test option, their stats aren't that great!

You realize that BASIS is pure lottery, and 5th is the first year, so yeah, those scores tell very little about the other 6 years of schooling.

a lot of the reason why there is so much attention to at-risk scores is that they break those scores out

Anonymous wrote:how much value do cape scores have in assessing school quality? can a school with a majority of kids who are passing sometimes be a not so great school but the student population there would pass at any school?

Yes. Poor CAPE scores relative to demographics (taking into account special needs) are a big red flag IMO.

how much value do cape scores have in assessing school quality? can a school with a majority of kids who are passing sometimes be a not so great school but the student population there would pass at any school?

okay. but thats mostly an argument for avoiding schools with low scores and for tracking. whats the threshold where there are enough on grade level kids to not hurt school quality??? is school a with 85% passing really better than school b with 75% passing?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the point is just that the data is complex. At risk students do not as an overall general demographic score very well on CAPE and that leads to complicated discussions re whether or not schools with a large number of lower scoring at risk students are doing a good job. But this is not true of all at risk students. If you isolate some of the highest performing and most motivated students within any demographic, you are going to get higher scores. If you just want to know how strong the student cohort is, then I guess it does not matter.

The families on this board are not at risk. So it doesn’t matter and is not relevant if schools are doing a good job of at risk.

Families on this board, majority will most likely have kids at or above grade level, so what matters is how strong the student cohort is overall.

The way that this "at risk" conversation started is that someone wrote that it was really impressive that Latin was doing so well given how many economically disadvantaged / at risk kids they have.

My point was simply to say, "Nope." Latin has fewer, not more at risk students than the other high schools on the list.

In general though, if you look at analyses of scores, like the one at Empower DC listed above, "at risk" is cross-referenced with scores to provide context. This is because if you look at a school that has lots of students who would generally get a 25 on a test and they are getting 45s, then you know that school is doing a really good job. Whereas if you just look at the 45s and say "what a bad score" you're missing the point that usually, on average, that student is expected to get a 25. The point is that what is a good score for one student isn't what is a good score for another person.

So, if you are considering your neighborhood school and they have xyz test scores, and you want to know if they are a good school, you need to take into account what the context is of xyz score.

It's true, if the only thing you care about, as a parent, is that there is a large enough high performing cohort for your kid, it's simpler. But if you're a policy maker, or even just a parent with an interest in statistics and DC schools writ large, then you might be interested in which schools are actually better as opposed to just which schools have the largest high performing cohort.

One reason you might be interested in this is because even if your family is wealthy or educated, your kid might have severe dyslexia and a reading delay and then, magically, they actually need good instruction oriented towards kids who are having a hard time in school. Then you might be glad you've done the analysis to find the best school for your kids as opposed to just the school with the most kids who look like them.

PP here. Your reasoning is flawed for families on this board. Your definition of good is improvement in at risk scores which is not at all relevant to us.

What is relevant to kids at or above grade level is that they get the teaching content they need to challenge them and meet their full potential which is not happening, especially in schools with overwhelmingly poor performing at risk kids. This is because OSSE does not allow tracking in schools - no G & T program at the elementary level, no tracking of subjects in middle/high schools except math

What happens is the teachers cannot effectively teach kids who are 3, 4 grade levels apart. So they teach to the majority lowest common denominator. This may not be apparent in ECE, K but it gets very apparent as the achievement gap widens starting in 1st/2nd. If your kid is not at risk but below grade level then they are where many at risk kids are and will be fine because the content is geared towards them. But not grade level kids and for sure not high performing kids.

Lastly, it’s not either/or when it comes to reading. Just because a school is not at risk does not mean that they do not have a phonics reading curriculum. In fact at schools where majority are at or above grade level, the school can identify these kids and pull out for more individual attention. In addition, families also have the resources to further augment the support outside of school.

Once kids are reading, it is tiresome and boring to continue so much focus on phonics ad nauseam in elementary. They can move on to higher reading, analysis, etc….

I would argue that the issue is not that CAPE scores are not broken down by at risk but why the scores are so damn low for lots of kids in this town when we throw so much money for each kid. Some of that is because these kids don’t have enough support starting early in elementary, social promotion, no tracking, etc.. in addition to inappropriate allocation and use of funds, etc…

Lastly, not all at risk kids are below grade level. Some of these kids have a lot of potential if you give them the support early on with tracking. That is not happening in DC. So these kids lose out the most. These families don’t have options to move to better school. I say this as someone who was a FARMS kid who was placed in G & T by a teacher starting in 3rd which changed the trajectory of my life. No such out for poor kids in DC. By high school with schools like Banneker, it is too late and there is only so much catching up you can do.

well no 5th and 6th graders all take the same test because they are not yet taking algebra and geometry