Anonymous wrote:going back to the topic- Switzerland has a a near 20% foreign population, a lot of them on local contracts. It is very friendly and if you can land a sfh (go out of the downtowns) or townhome then you dont have to deal with the strange rules of no flushing/showering after 10pm and such. The hardest adjustment has been the trash disposal. there is a housing shortage everywhere though- so that problem wont go away.

Austria is not as wealthy but they absolutely will welcome american professionals/professors so that is another good country to look at, cheap, gorgeous high QoL. yes it is true that physicians dont make the mad money outside of the US but coastal physicians dont make as much a their counterparts in the Midwest and plains states. I know quite a few american and british families that have gotten citizenship in Dach and EU countries- it takes a long time, 10 years and you must have employment the entire time and cannot make anyone angry so that they object to your citizenship but its doable.

Germany is depressing but all of these countries would absolutely welcome amercian professionals, if you have the grit to immigrate to a different country- i would not stay in the US- this is not a temporary thing. look at all the support this has from the comments, people want university funding, NIH etc to go away b/c they are so angry about COVID. We are ex pats and keeping our house for now in the US but my kids are thinking of staying for uni and dont really have much desire to move back to the US at all. There are also a LOT of brits in europe b/c of brexit so more resources for english speaking families to adjust. It is more traditional from a gender point of view though- a lot of sahm and sah girl friends. switzerland is way more traditional and very sheltered though from crime and problems b/c the immigrant population is very high value- educated professionals or businesspeople or refugees with money/resources/high level education and job opportunities.

You don't sound very smart if you think that frustration with Covid era and calls to look into it have anything to do with cutting funding. In fact, it's a call to do all sort of research to evolve our understanding of virology, epidemiology and diagnosis of infectious disease, all the subjects that had been taboo to question and where funds had been directed into pushing same old same old. Failure of Covid era means more research, evolving our understanding and not just focusing on pushing and enhancing the same idea developed decades ago in order to sell medical intervention to healthy people and force them to participate in trials of emerging tech.

This thread is funny. I’m one of those Chomsky type critics of US foreign policy and culture and all that. I’ve lived in several other countries, am a dual citizen, speak three languages and have visited over 100 countries. Though I hate the guns, the drug abuse, the lack of mental healthcare for the homeless, the lower academic standards in public schools, etc, the US will remain a top innovator. Move overseas and give it a go if you get the opportunity. Though the US is far from perfect, it isn’t all roses in the EU either.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"In the list of the world’s biggest pharmaceutical companies by market capitalization, 13 out of the top 100 are in the Basel Area, including Swiss companies Roche at number 6, and Novartis at number 8.

Top 40
Johnson & Johnson, R&D branch
Roche, Global HQs
Novartis, Global HQs
Regeneron Pharmaceuticals, Branch Office
CSL Seqirus, Branch Office
Zoetis, Branch Office
Lonza, Global HQs
Moderna, European Office

Top 60
Bayer, HQ Consumer Health
Celltrion, Branch Office
BioNTech, Branch Office
BeiGene, European HQs
Sandoz Group, Global HQs
Neurocrine, Branch Office
Dr. Reddy’s, Branch Office

Top 100
Recordati, Branch Office
Swedish Orphan Biovitrum, Branch Office
Roivant Sciences, European HQs
Abbott India, Abbott Laboratories GmbH, Abbott Products Operations AG in Allschwil
Bachem, Global HQs
WuXi Biologics, Domain partner BaseLaunch
Elanco, European HQs

If you're in pharma, biotech, or life sciences it's a no-brainer to try for Basel. And the government is supportive of these companies bringing in specialized foreign talent.

https://baselarea.swiss/blog-post/biotech-companies-wing-their-way-to-the-basel-area/

+10000

Thank you so much. Will get started on researching this asap.

If you actually work in high level biotech, shouldn’t you know this list already? I haven’t worked in years in the Biotech field but even I know that Switzerland and Germany would be the places to start looking

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you want to be at the vanguard, I’d say China. But that’s not what you wanted to hear.

There are many people considering China now. They are dumping huge amounts of money into STEM and provide table funding. Yeah, they don't have the best government either, but many are being attracted more and more by their stable funding environment and world class research that is catching up and even eclipsing the US now.

Talk about an autocratic government who has done horrible things to some of its citizens

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Anonymous wrote:In the meantime STEM folks from Europe can't wait to move here

Why the hell would they want to come here.

Because you don’t get paid crap in europe. I’m from Germany on a work visa and make double what I would make in Germany and pay half as much in housing and have a much much better quality of life.

Do you understand?

At this point it isn't about salaries. That's the least people should be concerned about. It's more about whether or not you want to live under an authoritarian fascist state. The USA is about to hit have free elections anymore at the rate it is going.

How afraid are you of this that you would go to a foreign country to live in a crappier smaller place, work for less and have to learn a new language?

Read the news. Then read history. It is extremely concerning to the point moving away and earning a smaller salary and learning a new language is worth it. No amount of money is worth hits to freedom. Are you even paying attention to anything project 2025 has proposed? Have you paid attention to JD Vance? Have you paid attention to Vought and everything he's said? You have to have extreme cognitive dissonance to not be highly concerned about where the US is headed. Just look at the disastrous press conference yesterday where Elon Musk made a complete mockery out of the Office of the President and made Trump look weak. We all know who is running the USA now.

This is exactly how MAGA sounds in the other direction. Both MAGA and the left are like twins. Completely unhinged from reality. Extreme catastrophization.

It is Ok. Actually more than, OK. US will do great, really really great! Vast majority of the people, who are outside the DC metro, are optimistic and welcome many of these changes.

USAID, or NIH funding, did not make this country great.

It sucks for us. I sympathize with the fed families, of which I am one. We will be Ok.

Name a country that defended science like this and was better off. Name a single one.

U.S.A.

Name a country that prospered by hiring equity officers.

Name a country that required diversity statements as a prerequisite for approval of research grants to science and technology.

Name a country that improved education outcomes by limiting/curtailing access to math in the name of equity.

Name a country that improved education outcomes among lower income groups by spending money on renaming schools.

Name a country that prospered by increasing the number of government workers.

So you can’t name a single country that had positive results after defunding science and attacking academia? USA doesn’t count because it just happened and we have no time to witness the result.

I’ll answer your questions once you answer mine. Name a country or society that was improved when they did this. Because there are plenty that got worse. China, Russia, Germany. Give us one counter example. It should be easy for you.

The amount spent on R&D is actually increasing in USA. The amount of research that is going on in the private sector is an order of magnitude more than what US govt spends and that is increasing at an extraordinary rate. In addition, all the big research universities are going to continue spending - even if they are cut a bit, it would be the wasteful part.

China, Russia, Germany did not get into problems because they cut R&D spending. You might want to brush up on your history!

I would bet anyone that USA would be the most dominant power economically, militarily and culturally in the next 5, 10, 50 years. Anyone want to bet otherwise?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have never been more optimistic on USA than I am now. It is painful now, to my family as we are a Fed family and it is going to be painful for this region. I wish and hope it gets better soon.

- Clinton, Biden & Kamala voter

That's because you have lost the critical thinking ability or never had it to begin with.
Anyone with some sort of historical perspective understands that these are unprecedented times and not in a good way.
Even freaking chatbots get it, lol.

You are the one freaking out that the sky is falling, Mr. Critical Thinking guy!

going back to the topic- Switzerland has a a near 20% foreign population, a lot of them on local contracts. It is very friendly and if you can land a sfh (go out of the downtowns) or townhome then you dont have to deal with the strange rules of no flushing/showering after 10pm and such. The hardest adjustment has been the trash disposal. there is a housing shortage everywhere though- so that problem wont go away.

Austria is not as wealthy but they absolutely will welcome american professionals/professors so that is another good country to look at, cheap, gorgeous high QoL. yes it is true that physicians dont make the mad money outside of the US but coastal physicians dont make as much a their counterparts in the Midwest and plains states. I know quite a few american and british families that have gotten citizenship in Dach and EU countries- it takes a long time, 10 years and you must have employment the entire time and cannot make anyone angry so that they object to your citizenship but its doable.

Germany is depressing but all of these countries would absolutely welcome amercian professionals, if you have the grit to immigrate to a different country- i would not stay in the US- this is not a temporary thing. look at all the support this has from the comments, people want university funding, NIH etc to go away b/c they are so angry about COVID. We are ex pats and keeping our house for now in the US but my kids are thinking of staying for uni and dont really have much desire to move back to the US at all. There are also a LOT of brits in europe b/c of brexit so more resources for english speaking families to adjust. It is more traditional from a gender point of view though- a lot of sahm and sah girl friends. switzerland is way more traditional and very sheltered though from crime and problems b/c the immigrant population is very high value- educated professionals or businesspeople or refugees with money/resources/high level education and job opportunities.

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Anonymous wrote:These countries are not easy to move to without a job. I don’t understand why Americans think they can just move to another country.

It's not just schulbs off the street. We are talking about PhDs, in STEM, trained at some of the best universities in the world, who also have years of experience developing highly valuable products in tech.

European countries can pick up this talent for pennies on the dollar right now if they want major boosts to their economy. Americans can bring massive expertise in very valuable fields. What's left in the US? A technocratic take over run by AI and the tech bros who want to drive the country into the ground? Awful healthcare and terrible education for your kids? There will be no more ecosystem left to develop talent in the US because they're cutting research grants and decimating universities. They're destroying it on purpose. Quoting Bible passages and raging about wokism and trans in sports isn't going to make blockbuster drugs in the future.

Basel sounds really good right about now.

Why would such high quality professionals not be able to do well in the USA exactly?

Because no one with an education wants to live under a fascist dictator. It's not about jobs or salaries at this point. It's about the country purposefully trying to destroy freedom of thought, innovation, and academic excellence. You know who else did stuff like this? Mao trying to create year zero, Putin's Russia, and Pol Pot. Controlling academia and destroying it is something horrible regimes always do at first. They're already killing everything about basic STEM research in the US. It is over.

You are funny. there is nothing that destroyed freedom of thought and innovative thinking more than the whole "trust the science" narrative of Covid where any alternative valid questions and scientific inquiries were suppressed, censored, defunded. Anyone capable of logical thinking started questioning a lot of the narrative back in May 2020.

Still waiting for you to give an example of a country that made itself better by defunding scientific research.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These countries are not easy to move to without a job. I don’t understand why Americans think they can just move to another country.

It's not just schulbs off the street. We are talking about PhDs, in STEM, trained at some of the best universities in the world, who also have years of experience developing highly valuable products in tech.

European countries can pick up this talent for pennies on the dollar right now if they want major boosts to their economy. Americans can bring massive expertise in very valuable fields. What's left in the US? A technocratic take over run by AI and the tech bros who want to drive the country into the ground? Awful healthcare and terrible education for your kids? There will be no more ecosystem left to develop talent in the US because they're cutting research grants and decimating universities. They're destroying it on purpose. Quoting Bible passages and raging about wokism and trans in sports isn't going to make blockbuster drugs in the future.

Basel sounds really good right about now.

Why would such high quality professionals not be able to do well in the USA exactly?

Because no one with an education wants to live under a fascist dictator. It's not about jobs or salaries at this point. It's about the country purposefully trying to destroy freedom of thought, innovation, and academic excellence. You know who else did stuff like this? Mao trying to create year zero, Putin's Russia, and Pol Pot. Controlling academia and destroying it is something horrible regimes always do at first. They're already killing everything about basic STEM research in the US. It is over.

You are funny. there is nothing that destroyed freedom of thought and innovative thinking more than the whole "trust the science" narrative of Covid where any alternative valid questions and scientific inquiries were suppressed, censored, defunded. Anyone capable of logical thinking started questioning a lot of the narrative back in May 2020.

Anonymous wrote:

The issue is a debilitating case of TDS that will be magically cured by setting up in another country. Because there's a subset of our population that delights in hating the US and pointing out how terrible we are compared to the rest of the world. However, that feeling comes and goes depending on who is in the White House. It's a fascinating condition.

I like your misguided optimism. 🙈 🙉

Orange regime is frustrating for rational people because it is so illogical and does so many nonsensical things. It is like telling kid it will hurt and then watching the kid touching the stove and not learning from it. Like this science gutting, there is no rational reason for it other than to own the libs. Long term it is guaranteed to hurt. Majority of population has no ability to even multiply two digit numbers in their head like the above poster so there we are. Frustrating.

Elon will also not save us. Elon is no genius in a real sense of the word. He is nowhere intellectually close to say Tesla, Edison, or Ford, and so on. His lack of EQ is astonishing and most of his success has come from the willingness to take on huge risks and then literally being bailed out by the taxpayers or some other outside capital.

for everything you said, there are many arguments against. First the entire Biden's regime was the epitome of illogical. He wasn't even fit to run the country and it's a mystery who was the real executive power behind the scenes, because, sure as hell, this wasn't Kamala either. Even if many were fooled in the beginning by the time it was mid 2024 and with Kamala running only a complete idiot or someone perpetually intoxicated would not question who the hell is running the country. Everything that happened from 2020 onward was a runaway train, it's no surprise it led to this moment. Just because you blindly believed all the Covid "science" doesn't mean that there isn't enough info to showcase how ridiculous most of it was, it just means you are stuck in year 2021 and piously follow your own cult. because you cannot see how working class was gaslit by their own party and pivoted instead towards performative victim worship and fake "culture revolution" and directing anger towards other fellow working class people, doesn't mean that your problems started after Jan 20. They had started long ago, you just refuse to see when cards were falling down because they haven't fallen on your head directly until now.

The issue is a debilitating case of TDS that will be magically cured by setting up in another country. Because there's a subset of our population that delights in hating the US and pointing out how terrible we are compared to the rest of the world. However, that feeling comes and goes depending on who is in the White House. It's a fascinating condition.

I like your misguided optimism. 🙈 🙉

Orange regime is frustrating for rational people because it is so illogical and does so many nonsensical things. It is like telling kid it will hurt and then watching the kid touching the stove and not learning from it. Like this science gutting, there is no rational reason for it other than to own the libs. Long term it is guaranteed to hurt. Majority of population has no ability to even multiply two digit numbers in their head like the above poster so there we are. Frustrating.

Elon will also not save us. Elon is no genius in a real sense of the word. He is nowhere intellectually close to say Tesla, Edison, or Ford, and so on. His lack of EQ is astonishing and most of his success has come from the willingness to take on huge risks and then literally being bailed out by the taxpayers or some other outside capital.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In the meantime STEM folks from Europe can't wait to move here

Why the hell would they want to come here.

Because you don’t get paid crap in europe. I’m from Germany on a work visa and make double what I would make in Germany and pay half as much in housing and have a much much better quality of life.

I'm from Germany too. I often have Zoom calls with my friends there. One of them is a neurosurgeon, and is always fascinated by my tales of physician's salaries/standards of living here. She's just not really willing to redo all of her exams and start over at this point, but basically she makes about 25% of what my neighbor (also a neurosurgeon) makes. And he's younger.

Although I will argue that the housing is cheaper. NOt sure where PP is or what she's using as a comparison (not that she's wrong). We just bought a place in Berlin and it was definitely less than comparable place here.