Anonymous
Post 02/01/2025 15:42     Subject: JD Vance attacking the Catholic church
5. And, again, a taste for Latin liturgy is no more an indication of political persuasion than a taste for jelly doughnuts.

Just wrong. I work for the Catholic Church. It's the RWNJ within the Church who are all for the Latin Mass.
Anonymous
Post 02/01/2025 15:17     Subject: JD Vance attacking the Catholic church
And to be clear, the very use of the term “Latin Mass” is imprecise to the point of meaninglessness. There is, as discussed at length, the “Vetus Ordo” (Missal of Paul V), which must be celebrated in Latin; there is also the “Novus Ordo” (Missal of Paul VI), the authoritative text of which is in Latin but which may be celebrated in the vernacular or (as is common) partly in Latin and partly in the vernacular.

Are you suggesting that attending a Novus Ordo Mass at the Basilica of the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception, with some of the parts in Latin, is something indicative of political “conservatism?” How about the same Mass in the same place entirely in Latin?

Or is it only the Vetus Ordo and its aficionados you feel entitled casually to label with stereotypes?
Anonymous
Post 02/01/2025 15:08     Subject: JD Vance attacking the Catholic church
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:NP: I'm a Gen X who has attended Catholic Mass in English, Spanish, Italian, Tagalog, Latin (once, as an adult in Rome), and Irish; I've also attended Mass with traditional old school liturgical music, folk music, rock music, monastic chanting, and Black spiritual gospel music. PP is correct that there are parishes that regularly use the Latin Mass as a choice, so yes there are children being raise with it. There are many ways to participate in the Mass, and that has nothing to do with U.S. politics.

I believe the broader point these two are struggling to discuss is that, while the Latin mass has zero to do with U.S. politics (after all, it's said worldwide in a small number of parishes), it is also simultaneously true that those who are strong proponents of attending them regularly in the U.S. instead of common language Mass (and who perhaps also join groups like the Arlington Latin Mass Society or Opus Dei) also overlap widely on a ven diagram with those who vote Republican and may also be politically right wing Trump voters. You are far less likely to find support for Trump at a folk Mass in Massachusetts, for example.

In the U.S., Catholics, on average, year over year, are politically 50/50 R/D, which is normal and wholly appropriate, including among those who have taken religious vows. I don't personally know many nuns or priests who don't speak out against Trump's politics and who are sad that people voted for him (as am I). They are also busy working to protect those this administration aims to harm (as am I), as they should be given vows they have taken.

To the PP who suggests American Catholics will break from the Roman Catholic Church, I do not think it likely, but if anyone did, they would a minority and entirely among the right wing crowd, who I personally agree seem to have lost their way.


Thank you. I appreciate your comments. However, I would agree with the other poster in that we are not struggling. I am talking about the US Church and what I would safely assume is a he is attempting to mansplain the worldwide Church. Despite what he thinks, there is a strong correlation between Opus Dei and R politics and Becket and Teneo and all of that. There also exists the same nihilism between the right wing within the Catholic Church and MAGA.

I disagree with you regarding the Latin Mass here in the US. IME there are very few who may have grown up with a Latin Mass so much so that they are statistically insignificant. Among GenX and younger in this country there is no natural affinity for the Latin Mass. A cradle Catholic, I have only recently started seeing hymn books with the Latin Mass in the them. Forcing the Latin Mass on the general population is some really weird, backwards arse sh*t that needs to be called out for what it is. This may be more of a discussion for the religion thread, but here we are.


1. Vatican II called for the preservation of liturgical Latin.

2. The authoritative language of the official Vatican II Mass texts is Latin.

3. Hymn books contain hymns. To the extent they also contain the ordinary parts of the Mass, such as the people’s responses, it would be unusual for them not to contain such basic Latin parts as the Sanctus, Agnus Dei, Domine non sum dignus, etc. Certainly, the Vatican II “People’s Mass Book” did. But if all you’ve ever been exposed to is “Glory and Praise,” well, perhaps that’s a ground to claim at least vincible ignorance.

4. Your personal lack of experience with young people raised in and/or drawn to the Mass celebrated in Latin, and the Vetus Ordo in particular, does not mean such people do not exist. People have been drawn in particular to the Vetus Ordo for centuries, with many citing its majesty, mystery and sense of things beyond the visible. It is not at all uncommon for young people having their first experience of such liturgy to be appalled by the banal pablum they’ve been fed up to then.

5. And, again, a taste for Latin liturgy is no more an indication of political persuasion than a taste for jelly doughnuts.
Anonymous
Post 02/01/2025 14:27     Subject: JD Vance attacking the Catholic church
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Well, I supposed he thinks he's more Catholic than the Pope. These right wing Catholics are SO arrogant.

Also, Refugess are LEGAL immigrants.


Oof. This gave me a ghost of Henry VIII chill. When do American Catholics break away from Rome and declare Vance head of the Catholic Church in America and ALL churches.


There are already right wing US sects who consider themselves Catholic. Many of them say Mass in Latin.


Yes and Opus Dei


Today's version of the John Birch Society.


Have you ever met a member of Opus Dei? Attended one of their liturgies or events? Consulted one of their priests? Read any of their publications?

You genuinely don’t know what you’re talking about.


Not PP: But yes I have, and they are cuckoo.


Pejorative epithets may be the safe harbor of the intellectually deficient, but they hardly explain the purported defects in the beliefs and practices of Opus Dei adherents.


Dude, I am a graduate of one of the top SLACs in this country and have two advanced degrees from an Ivy League institution. I am more than intellectually sufficient and I call it like I see it.


LOL. THAT explains things.


Educated people can be religious.
Anonymous
Post 02/01/2025 14:26     Subject: JD Vance attacking the Catholic church
Anonymous wrote:NP: I'm a Gen X who has attended Catholic Mass in English, Spanish, Italian, Tagalog, Latin (once, as an adult in Rome), and Irish; I've also attended Mass with traditional old school liturgical music, folk music, rock music, monastic chanting, and Black spiritual gospel music. PP is correct that there are parishes that regularly use the Latin Mass as a choice, so yes there are children being raise with it. There are many ways to participate in the Mass, and that has nothing to do with U.S. politics.

I believe the broader point these two are struggling to discuss is that, while the Latin mass has zero to do with U.S. politics (after all, it's said worldwide in a small number of parishes), it is also simultaneously true that those who are strong proponents of attending them regularly in the U.S. instead of common language Mass (and who perhaps also join groups like the Arlington Latin Mass Society or Opus Dei) also overlap widely on a ven diagram with those who vote Republican and may also be politically right wing Trump voters. You are far less likely to find support for Trump at a folk Mass in Massachusetts, for example.

In the U.S., Catholics, on average, year over year, are politically 50/50 R/D, which is normal and wholly appropriate, including among those who have taken religious vows. I don't personally know many nuns or priests who don't speak out against Trump's politics and who are sad that people voted for him (as am I). They are also busy working to protect those this administration aims to harm (as am I), as they should be given vows they have taken.

To the PP who suggests American Catholics will break from the Roman Catholic Church, I do not think it likely, but if anyone did, they would a minority and entirely among the right wing crowd, who I personally agree seem to have lost their way.


Thank you. I appreciate your comments. However, I would agree with the other poster in that we are not struggling. I am talking about the US Church and what I would safely assume is a he is attempting to mansplain the worldwide Church. Despite what he thinks, there is a strong correlation between Opus Dei and R politics and Becket and Teneo and all of that. There also exists the same nihilism between the right wing within the Catholic Church and MAGA.

I disagree with you regarding the Latin Mass here in the US. IME there are very few who may have grown up with a Latin Mass so much so that they are statistically insignificant. Among GenX and younger in this country there is no natural affinity for the Latin Mass. A cradle Catholic, I have only recently started seeing hymn books with the Latin Mass in the them. Forcing the Latin Mass on the general population is some really weird, backwards arse sh*t that needs to be called out for what it is. This may be more of a discussion for the religion thread, but here we are.
Anonymous
Post 02/01/2025 11:42     Subject: JD Vance attacking the Catholic church
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Well, I supposed he thinks he's more Catholic than the Pope. These right wing Catholics are SO arrogant.

Also, Refugess are LEGAL immigrants.


Oof. This gave me a ghost of Henry VIII chill. When do American Catholics break away from Rome and declare Vance head of the Catholic Church in America and ALL churches.


There are already right wing US sects who consider themselves Catholic. Many of them say Mass in Latin.


Yes and Opus Dei


Today's version of the John Birch Society.


Have you ever met a member of Opus Dei? Attended one of their liturgies or events? Consulted one of their priests? Read any of their publications?

You genuinely don’t know what you’re talking about.


Not PP: But yes I have, and they are cuckoo.


Pejorative epithets may be the safe harbor of the intellectually deficient, but they hardly explain the purported defects in the beliefs and practices of Opus Dei adherents.


Dude, I am a graduate of one of the top SLACs in this country and have two advanced degrees from an Ivy League institution. I am more than intellectually sufficient and I call it like I see it.


LOL. THAT explains things.
Anonymous
Post 02/01/2025 11:25     Subject: JD Vance attacking the Catholic church
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Op is a liar. Catholic Charities is NOT the Catholic Church. It’s an arm.


He was attacking the USCCB, the Catholic Bishops' Conference, which is the US' highest authority of leadership within the Catholic Church. If they aren't Catholic, then who is, exactly? Certainly not JD Vance.

Yeah Vance converts like ten minutes ago, likely for entirely political reasons, and now he’s like “all that help the poor and welcome the stranger stuff seems too woke.” Pathetic.


Bingo.


It's always this:
https://bsky.app/profile/leastactionhero.bsky.social/post/3kxdxgqqgf72v
Anonymous
Post 02/01/2025 11:22     Subject: JD Vance attacking the Catholic church
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:As polling goes, the majority of Catholics voted for Trump. There are culturally conservative Catholics and theologically conservative Catholics. There's no shortage of Catholics who disagree with the liberal wing of the church. The tensions are pretty well known. Not sure why OP is trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. Is she saying people aren't allowed to criticize institutions, even ones they are part of?


How many Catholics believe the reason the US Conference of Bishops operates Catholic Charities, and that Catholic Charities helps resettle refugees, is because the Catholic Church is eager to make money bringing illegal immigrants into the country?

That’s not disagreeing with the policies of the Church, that’s slander. And if support for Catholic Charities’ work is now limited to the “liberal wing” of the Church then I think you’ve really lost the plot.


Yes. Jesus weeps.
Anonymous
Post 02/01/2025 11:19     Subject: JD Vance attacking the Catholic church
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Op is a liar. Catholic Charities is NOT the Catholic Church. It’s an arm.


He was attacking the USCCB, the Catholic Bishops' Conference, which is the US' highest authority of leadership within the Catholic Church. If they aren't Catholic, then who is, exactly? Certainly not JD Vance.

Yeah Vance converts like ten minutes ago, likely for entirely political reasons, and now he’s like “all that help the poor and welcome the stranger stuff seems too woke.” Pathetic.


Bingo.
Anonymous
Post 02/01/2025 11:17     Subject: JD Vance attacking the Catholic church
Anonymous wrote:
Op is a liar. Catholic Charities is NOT the Catholic Church. It’s an arm.


Are you even Catholic? Catholic Charities branches are operated under the auspices of local bishops who exert powerful influence over their operations including local leadership and programs. Catholic Charities doesn't do anything that isn't sanctioned by the UCCSB.

https://www.catholiccharitiesusa.org/governance/
Anonymous
Post 02/01/2025 10:09     Subject: JD Vance attacking the Catholic church
Adding: I’m not sure that the evangical counsels of poverty, chastity and obedience (which apply to religious, but not to diocesan priests or deacons) in any way require a single-minded opposition to the entire current policy on immigration and border issues. There are people unlawfully present in the country who are terribly needy, sick, old, disabled, without relatives or resources. It seems inappropriate to drag them from their shelters and haul them off to near certain death. But there are people here unlawfully who are hardened, psychopathic, evil, ruthless criminals, with long histories of violent offenses before and after the unlawfully entered the country. Whatever duties charity may impose seem to extend far less toward them. For the persons in between, there is a tension between encouraging them to leave on one hand (and discouraging others from coming) and helping them assimilate into a decent life in the interim. Assimilation benefits everyone since a land filled with desperate “outsiders” is rarely at peace for anyone.
Anonymous
Post 02/01/2025 09:57     Subject: JD Vance attacking the Catholic church
Anonymous wrote:NP: I'm a Gen X who has attended Catholic Mass in English, Spanish, Italian, Tagalog, Latin (once, as an adult in Rome), and Irish; I've also attended Mass with traditional old school liturgical music, folk music, rock music, monastic chanting, and Black spiritual gospel music. PP is correct that there are parishes that regularly use the Latin Mass as a choice, so yes there are children being raise with it. There are many ways to participate in the Mass, and that has nothing to do with U.S. politics.

I believe the broader point these two are struggling to discuss is that, while the Latin mass has zero to do with U.S. politics (after all, it's said worldwide in a small number of parishes), it is also simultaneously true that those who are strong proponents of attending them regularly in the U.S. instead of common language Mass (and who perhaps also join groups like the Arlington Latin Mass Society or Opus Dei) also overlap widely on a ven diagram with those who vote Republican and may also be politically right wing Trump voters. You are far less likely to find support for Trump at a folk Mass in Massachusetts, for example.

In the U.S., Catholics, on average, year over year, are politically 50/50 R/D, which is normal and wholly appropriate, including among those who have taken religious vows. I don't personally know many nuns or priests who don't speak out against Trump's politics and who are sad that people voted for him (as am I). They are also busy working to protect those this administration aims to harm (as am I), as they should be given vows they have taken.

To the PP who suggests American Catholics will break from the Roman Catholic Church, I do not think it likely, but if anyone did, they would a minority and entirely among the right wing crowd, who I personally agree seem to have lost their way.



I don’t know about anybody else, but I’m not “struggling to discuss” anything. There was an assertion that equated a preference for Mass in Latin (not specifically the Vetus Ordo) with certain politics. That assertion is false. I’m not at all sure that a survey of Latin Mass goers (or of Opus Dei members, where one typically does not find the Vetus Ordo being celebrated and I suspect even the Novus Ordo in Latin is fairly uncommon) would find significant commonality in political views across the board. “Catholic” politics tend to overlap the customary “liberal” and “conservative” labels.
Anonymous
Post 02/01/2025 08:44     Subject: JD Vance attacking the Catholic church
Anonymous wrote:I just don’t get people who claim to be religious Christians yet ignore the core teachings of the Gospels.


Key word is "claim." Remember that when people attack a religion instead of the person doing terrible things falsely in its name. Trump holding a Bible upside down in front of an Episcopal church does not speak for those who consider that book Holy. Vance disparaging the selfless work of nuns and priests and lay volunteers helping those in great need at the border does not speak for Catholics.
Anonymous
Post 02/01/2025 08:35     Subject: JD Vance attacking the Catholic church
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Well, I supposed he thinks he's more Catholic than the Pope. These right wing Catholics are SO arrogant.

Also, Refugees are LEGAL immigrants.


I wonder if the converts are worse that those brought up Catholic.


What's the saying: the recent convert is the biggest zealot.


Often also with the least understanding, it being new to them and all.
Anonymous
Post 02/01/2025 08:33     Subject: JD Vance attacking the Catholic church
NP: I'm a Gen X who has attended Catholic Mass in English, Spanish, Italian, Tagalog, Latin (once, as an adult in Rome), and Irish; I've also attended Mass with traditional old school liturgical music, folk music, rock music, monastic chanting, and Black spiritual gospel music. PP is correct that there are parishes that regularly use the Latin Mass as a choice, so yes there are children being raise with it. There are many ways to participate in the Mass, and that has nothing to do with U.S. politics.

I believe the broader point these two are struggling to discuss is that, while the Latin mass has zero to do with U.S. politics (after all, it's said worldwide in a small number of parishes), it is also simultaneously true that those who are strong proponents of attending them regularly in the U.S. instead of common language Mass (and who perhaps also join groups like the Arlington Latin Mass Society or Opus Dei) also overlap widely on a ven diagram with those who vote Republican and may also be politically right wing Trump voters. You are far less likely to find support for Trump at a folk Mass in Massachusetts, for example.

In the U.S., Catholics, on average, year over year, are politically 50/50 R/D, which is normal and wholly appropriate, including among those who have taken religious vows. I don't personally know many nuns or priests who don't speak out against Trump's politics and who are sad that people voted for him (as am I). They are also busy working to protect those this administration aims to harm (as am I), as they should be given vows they have taken.

To the PP who suggests American Catholics will break from the Roman Catholic Church, I do not think it likely, but if anyone did, they would a minority and entirely among the right wing crowd, who I personally agree seem to have lost their way.