Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Covid exposed even more inequity but also slowed it all down and allowed people to focus inward and not on their community. I see this in the PTA. We have 40-50 parents who volunteer out of a school of 400 families and most of these parents can just put their kid into a paid activity or go to a fun paid festival on weekends instead of setting up for a festival on school grounds. Free to all students and benefitting all the families that cant volunteer or financially contribute due to multiple jobs, many kids etc. We are all burned out now but not many new families are stepping up.

Can you really blame those people for not wanting to burn themselves out for others who can’t or won’t pitch but want to enjoy the fruits of someone else’s labor? People felt taken advantage of in these largely thankless roles. There wasn’t much upside for people who would like to enjoy their weekends with their families too.

And I'd add, unoften unnecessary roles too that feel made up at times. if a volunteer wants to tell the community that we "need" to have this fesitval and is going to run it, that's fine, but don't asume we all agree with "need"

Exactly. And there seems to be an attitude in here that some people owe it to others to put on an event because other kids “need” it. The other parents don’t have any skin in the game but are able to show up for 2 hours to have fun with their own families and for this reason, other people need to donate large amounts of their own personal time and often money to make this happen. Why exactly? I’d like to enjoy the events with my family too, but I’m often working. If another parent can show up for 2 hours then they too can help out for an hour to make it a success. Otherwise, what’s the point? Does anyone really need this fall festival, spring fling, fun fest, put on by a small amount of volunteers who feel put upon and not appreciated? Hardly anyone ever says “thanks!” There’s usually just input about how it could have been better or what was lacking.

Based on many posts it seems like people would rather pay for enrichment than volunteer themselves. I'd argue that's incredibly sad, because it limits their circle and their kids' circles to other people who can also pay for that specific type of enrichment. It reduces the feeling of "we're community because we all live here/go to this school/are part of this local youth club" that comes from volunteer run organizations. It means fewer of the all important weak ties people need. But all everyone sees is the hour taken to put on the Fun Fest.

Obviously sometimes Pinterest Parents go overboard with tiny details - my kid really doesn't care if the donut holes for the winter class party look like snowmen or not but I know the picture looked cute on your Instagram. But the broad fact of these events really is important. We have to fight against the loneliness epidemic somehow, and I'd argue these free labor driven volunteering events are one way people can do it. Meet other people you wouldn't normally hang out with, provide something for your community, get a sense of a job well done (yeah, even if the freeloading parents are annoying complainers), give your kids another chance to see that kid from class that just maybe they might be friends with.

I'm so glad that we can pay for enrichment and for sports clubs because our local non-profit league is almost hilariously cliquish

Because that's how they make it fun. Also because they have been doing this for a while and have developed a decided non-trust in humanity thanks to all the things they've seen pulled. Does it justify the behavior? Probably not, but it does explain it.

Running a local non-profit league is one of the most thankless tasks in the universe. Larla needs to be with 3 best friends. Friend 1 can only practice Monday, friend 2 can only practice Tuesday, and friend 3 can practice any day but has specifically requested to never been on a team with Larla again. Larla herself can only practice on Thursday and she wants Coach A whose practice night is Wednesday. Dad never responds when you ask which of the special requests you should accommodate, but the minute you release teams Dad sends a ragey email to the league president wondering why you couldn't read his mind and put Larla on that other team. Multiply that by at least 5 for each age division. Then add in the people demanding a late add because they can't get their act together, the coaches who act like total jerks to volunteer referees (see the whole losing trust in humanity above) or parents, dealing with a recalcitrant county that wants to demand you do their job for them on maintaining facilities, and so much more. People who run non-profit leagues have the most thankless job in the world - yes, even worse than teachers. Nobody has "Thank Your Local Rec League Board Member" week.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Covid exposed even more inequity but also slowed it all down and allowed people to focus inward and not on their community. I see this in the PTA. We have 40-50 parents who volunteer out of a school of 400 families and most of these parents can just put their kid into a paid activity or go to a fun paid festival on weekends instead of setting up for a festival on school grounds. Free to all students and benefitting all the families that cant volunteer or financially contribute due to multiple jobs, many kids etc. We are all burned out now but not many new families are stepping up.

Can you really blame those people for not wanting to burn themselves out for others who can’t or won’t pitch but want to enjoy the fruits of someone else’s labor? People felt taken advantage of in these largely thankless roles. There wasn’t much upside for people who would like to enjoy their weekends with their families too.

And I'd add, unoften unnecessary roles too that feel made up at times. if a volunteer wants to tell the community that we "need" to have this fesitval and is going to run it, that's fine, but don't asume we all agree with "need"

Exactly. And there seems to be an attitude in here that some people owe it to others to put on an event because other kids “need” it. The other parents don’t have any skin in the game but are able to show up for 2 hours to have fun with their own families and for this reason, other people need to donate large amounts of their own personal time and often money to make this happen. Why exactly? I’d like to enjoy the events with my family too, but I’m often working. If another parent can show up for 2 hours then they too can help out for an hour to make it a success. Otherwise, what’s the point? Does anyone really need this fall festival, spring fling, fun fest, put on by a small amount of volunteers who feel put upon and not appreciated? Hardly anyone ever says “thanks!” There’s usually just input about how it could have been better or what was lacking.

Based on many posts it seems like people would rather pay for enrichment than volunteer themselves. I'd argue that's incredibly sad, because it limits their circle and their kids' circles to other people who can also pay for that specific type of enrichment. It reduces the feeling of "we're community because we all live here/go to this school/are part of this local youth club" that comes from volunteer run organizations. It means fewer of the all important weak ties people need. But all everyone sees is the hour taken to put on the Fun Fest.

Obviously sometimes Pinterest Parents go overboard with tiny details - my kid really doesn't care if the donut holes for the winter class party look like snowmen or not but I know the picture looked cute on your Instagram. But the broad fact of these events really is important. We have to fight against the loneliness epidemic somehow, and I'd argue these free labor driven volunteering events are one way people can do it. Meet other people you wouldn't normally hang out with, provide something for your community, get a sense of a job well done (yeah, even if the freeloading parents are annoying complainers), give your kids another chance to see that kid from class that just maybe they might be friends with.

I'm so glad that we can pay for enrichment and for sports clubs because our local non-profit league is almost hilariously cliquish

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Covid exposed even more inequity but also slowed it all down and allowed people to focus inward and not on their community. I see this in the PTA. We have 40-50 parents who volunteer out of a school of 400 families and most of these parents can just put their kid into a paid activity or go to a fun paid festival on weekends instead of setting up for a festival on school grounds. Free to all students and benefitting all the families that cant volunteer or financially contribute due to multiple jobs, many kids etc. We are all burned out now but not many new families are stepping up.

Can you really blame those people for not wanting to burn themselves out for others who can’t or won’t pitch but want to enjoy the fruits of someone else’s labor? People felt taken advantage of in these largely thankless roles. There wasn’t much upside for people who would like to enjoy their weekends with their families too.

And I'd add, unoften unnecessary roles too that feel made up at times. if a volunteer wants to tell the community that we "need" to have this fesitval and is going to run it, that's fine, but don't asume we all agree with "need"

Exactly. And there seems to be an attitude in here that some people owe it to others to put on an event because other kids “need” it. The other parents don’t have any skin in the game but are able to show up for 2 hours to have fun with their own families and for this reason, other people need to donate large amounts of their own personal time and often money to make this happen. Why exactly? I’d like to enjoy the events with my family too, but I’m often working. If another parent can show up for 2 hours then they too can help out for an hour to make it a success. Otherwise, what’s the point? Does anyone really need this fall festival, spring fling, fun fest, put on by a small amount of volunteers who feel put upon and not appreciated? Hardly anyone ever says “thanks!” There’s usually just input about how it could have been better or what was lacking.

Based on many posts it seems like people would rather pay for enrichment than volunteer themselves. I'd argue that's incredibly sad, because it limits their circle and their kids' circles to other people who can also pay for that specific type of enrichment. It reduces the feeling of "we're community because we all live here/go to this school/are part of this local youth club" that comes from volunteer run organizations. It means fewer of the all important weak ties people need. But all everyone sees is the hour taken to put on the Fun Fest.

Obviously sometimes Pinterest Parents go overboard with tiny details - my kid really doesn't care if the donut holes for the winter class party look like snowmen or not but I know the picture looked cute on your Instagram. But the broad fact of these events really is important. We have to fight against the loneliness epidemic somehow, and I'd argue these free labor driven volunteering events are one way people can do it. Meet other people you wouldn't normally hang out with, provide something for your community, get a sense of a job well done (yeah, even if the freeloading parents are annoying complainers), give your kids another chance to see that kid from class that just maybe they might be friends with.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Covid exposed even more inequity but also slowed it all down and allowed people to focus inward and not on their community. I see this in the PTA. We have 40-50 parents who volunteer out of a school of 400 families and most of these parents can just put their kid into a paid activity or go to a fun paid festival on weekends instead of setting up for a festival on school grounds. Free to all students and benefitting all the families that cant volunteer or financially contribute due to multiple jobs, many kids etc. We are all burned out now but not many new families are stepping up.

Can you really blame those people for not wanting to burn themselves out for others who can’t or won’t pitch but want to enjoy the fruits of someone else’s labor? People felt taken advantage of in these largely thankless roles. There wasn’t much upside for people who would like to enjoy their weekends with their families too.

And I'd add, unoften unnecessary roles too that feel made up at times. if a volunteer wants to tell the community that we "need" to have this fesitval and is going to run it, that's fine, but don't asume we all agree with "need"

Exactly. And there seems to be an attitude in here that some people owe it to others to put on an event because other kids “need” it. The other parents don’t have any skin in the game but are able to show up for 2 hours to have fun with their own families and for this reason, other people need to donate large amounts of their own personal time and often money to make this happen. Why exactly? I’d like to enjoy the events with my family too, but I’m often working. If another parent can show up for 2 hours then they too can help out for an hour to make it a success. Otherwise, what’s the point? Does anyone really need this fall festival, spring fling, fun fest, put on by a small amount of volunteers who feel put upon and not appreciated? Hardly anyone ever says “thanks!” There’s usually just input about how it could have been better or what was lacking.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve noticed with the schools, in particular, they have been very reluctant to allow parents/volunteers back in the buildings. Maybe they got used to just doing it all themselves, maybe they cut way back on programs and don’t need as many parent volunteers other than for the 1-2 field trips a year, maybe they’re holding on to old COVID protocols. Maybe a combination of all of these and more. But it’s only been this school year so far that our PTA has even asked for room parents for all the grades, and that they’ve planned a full slate of activities. Last year they had activities (both paid after school and free or cheap, like a Trunk or Treat and a Bingo night), but the teachers and the PTA had nothing for classroom volunteers. Again, apart from field trip chaperones. People get out of the practice of giving their time and then they don’t want to do it. Or the schools and organizations make them feel unwelcomed. We have a PTA clique for sure and they are actually all pretty nice, but they’re very used to working together with just the same 6-8 moms and there’s not a lot of use for “outsiders” and occasional volunteers.

I suspect admin often thinks these parents need to volunteer is more about the parents than the kids' needs. In other words, they want the parents to feel involved but don't think they add enough to make it worth the extra work.

I think that’s part of it too. But then you have other posts lamenting the lack of volunteers …

I think school administrations are being slow to realize the changed climate and how much resentment exists towards the schools post-COVID.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve noticed with the schools, in particular, they have been very reluctant to allow parents/volunteers back in the buildings. Maybe they got used to just doing it all themselves, maybe they cut way back on programs and don’t need as many parent volunteers other than for the 1-2 field trips a year, maybe they’re holding on to old COVID protocols. Maybe a combination of all of these and more. But it’s only been this school year so far that our PTA has even asked for room parents for all the grades, and that they’ve planned a full slate of activities. Last year they had activities (both paid after school and free or cheap, like a Trunk or Treat and a Bingo night), but the teachers and the PTA had nothing for classroom volunteers. Again, apart from field trip chaperones. People get out of the practice of giving their time and then they don’t want to do it. Or the schools and organizations make them feel unwelcomed. We have a PTA clique for sure and they are actually all pretty nice, but they’re very used to working together with just the same 6-8 moms and there’s not a lot of use for “outsiders” and occasional volunteers.

Yeah but I bet they still took all the freebies and fundraisers for teacher appreciation and gifts and supplies didn’t they?

Teacher haters are so vile.

I don’t hate teachers. I hate people freeloading on the same populations they’re exploiting (women). It’s done at the county level if they’re accepting cash gifts for teachers from the same parents the school district refused to help.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:90% of the child-related volunteer mental/emotional/physical labor is done by moms and the newer generation of moms are not into doing free labor that is being taken for granted and baked in to the school budgets. They no longer need or want that validation.

This is utterly false. 100% of the volunteer coaches for boys sports in my town are men. The vast majority of coaches in girl sports are men. At games and youth tournaments it is relatively rare to see a female coach. Nearly all of the referees in all the sports I am aware of are male. I have never seen a female youth football coach. All of the dads I know are more involved with their kids athletic activities than the moms are.

I think the statement you are making says more about your husband and your marriage than it does about our area.

to the previous poster, You actually proved her point.

Plus, athletics involves much more unseen labor than just coaching.

+1 to that.

Though I think the idea that doing free labor is somehow less than paid labor is terrible. Yes, both genders should be willing to do it, but there's value in the gift economy and not just for stuff and not just for the receiver.

Maybe Covid accelerated the volunteering crisis, but the idea that people shouldn't ever do any labor for free started it.

There is when it’s a gift. Not when it’s an obligation, and not when those “gifts” are taken for granted by schools to reduce their own responsibilities. What COVID revealed was that schools didn’t feel any reciprocal responsibility.

That wouldn't explain why extracurriculars and non-school activities are feeling the pinch of lack of volunteers.

I think the organizations which took women’s labor for granted are the ones feeling the pinch. Our swim team has a ton of volunteers— they recognize and reward those volunteers.

Our swim team berates people over the head into volunteering and then takes all volunteers except the "cool" ones for granted. It's why I'm making my kids quit, even though swim is good for them. It's such a miserable experience unless you are on the in crowd.

That is a really disappointing statement from a parent. You are going to withdraw your children from an activity because it’s too much trouble for you? Save some money for their therapy.

It’s interesting I was having the exact opposite reaction— this is a parent who is modeling healthy boundaries for her kids early, and they’ll have better mental health outcomes than their peers.

This. People are acting like boundaries are selfish. It's actually selfish to martyr yourself to make yourself feel better for volunteering and having your kids in all the things and then end up exhausted, complaining, resentful, and with no energy left for your family.

And, yes, having energy left for your family may necessitate making hard choices and doing things others may look down upon, but I agree with PP, modeling proactive choices is so much better than just reflexively doing what everyone thinks you "should" do. You can't do everything, or at least not well.

I'll also add: If this is an overcorrection, so be it because having modeled that you have to do this, that, and the other thing and on and on to be a good person was not very healthy for me to watch growing up. You end up without an actual identity of your own.

By the way, I do volunteer for certain things, as does my child, but in doing the amount able to (which changes depending on family circumstances) and keeping with my true boundaries, I'm doing it willingly, which I think is better for everyone.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:90% of the child-related volunteer mental/emotional/physical labor is done by moms and the newer generation of moms are not into doing free labor that is being taken for granted and baked in to the school budgets. They no longer need or want that validation.

This is utterly false. 100% of the volunteer coaches for boys sports in my town are men. The vast majority of coaches in girl sports are men. At games and youth tournaments it is relatively rare to see a female coach. Nearly all of the referees in all the sports I am aware of are male. I have never seen a female youth football coach. All of the dads I know are more involved with their kids athletic activities than the moms are.

I think the statement you are making says more about your husband and your marriage than it does about our area.

to the previous poster, You actually proved her point.

Plus, athletics involves much more unseen labor than just coaching.

+1 to that.

Though I think the idea that doing free labor is somehow less than paid labor is terrible. Yes, both genders should be willing to do it, but there's value in the gift economy and not just for stuff and not just for the receiver.

Maybe Covid accelerated the volunteering crisis, but the idea that people shouldn't ever do any labor for free started it.

There is when it’s a gift. Not when it’s an obligation, and not when those “gifts” are taken for granted by schools to reduce their own responsibilities. What COVID revealed was that schools didn’t feel any reciprocal responsibility.

That wouldn't explain why extracurriculars and non-school activities are feeling the pinch of lack of volunteers.

I think the organizations which took women’s labor for granted are the ones feeling the pinch. Our swim team has a ton of volunteers— they recognize and reward those volunteers.

Our swim team berates people over the head into volunteering and then takes all volunteers except the "cool" ones for granted. It's why I'm making my kids quit, even though swim is good for them. It's such a miserable experience unless you are on the in crowd.

That is a really disappointing statement from a parent. You are going to withdraw your children from an activity because it’s too much trouble for you? Save some money for their therapy.

It’s interesting I was having the exact opposite reaction— this is a parent who is modeling healthy boundaries for her kids early, and they’ll have better mental health outcomes than their peers.

This. People are acting like boundaries are selfish. It's actually selfish to martyr yourself to make yourself feel better for volunteering and having your kids in all the things and then end up exhausted, complaining, resentful, and with no energy left for your family.

And, yes, having energy left for your family may necessitate making hard choices and doing things others may look down upon, but I agree with PP, modeling proactive choices is so much better than just reflexively doing what everyone thinks you "should" do. You can't do everything, or at least not well.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve noticed with the schools, in particular, they have been very reluctant to allow parents/volunteers back in the buildings. Maybe they got used to just doing it all themselves, maybe they cut way back on programs and don’t need as many parent volunteers other than for the 1-2 field trips a year, maybe they’re holding on to old COVID protocols. Maybe a combination of all of these and more. But it’s only been this school year so far that our PTA has even asked for room parents for all the grades, and that they’ve planned a full slate of activities. Last year they had activities (both paid after school and free or cheap, like a Trunk or Treat and a Bingo night), but the teachers and the PTA had nothing for classroom volunteers. Again, apart from field trip chaperones. People get out of the practice of giving their time and then they don’t want to do it. Or the schools and organizations make them feel unwelcomed. We have a PTA clique for sure and they are actually all pretty nice, but they’re very used to working together with just the same 6-8 moms and there’s not a lot of use for “outsiders” and occasional volunteers.

I suspect admin often thinks these parents need to volunteer is more about the parents than the kids' needs. In other words, they want the parents to feel involved but don't think they add enough to make it worth the extra work.

And what I'd argue to those administrators is that they're going to lose the things they really want from parents (ex: being supportive of teachers) if they don't bring them into the community. Shooting themselves in the foot to save work today.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve noticed with the schools, in particular, they have been very reluctant to allow parents/volunteers back in the buildings. Maybe they got used to just doing it all themselves, maybe they cut way back on programs and don’t need as many parent volunteers other than for the 1-2 field trips a year, maybe they’re holding on to old COVID protocols. Maybe a combination of all of these and more. But it’s only been this school year so far that our PTA has even asked for room parents for all the grades, and that they’ve planned a full slate of activities. Last year they had activities (both paid after school and free or cheap, like a Trunk or Treat and a Bingo night), but the teachers and the PTA had nothing for classroom volunteers. Again, apart from field trip chaperones. People get out of the practice of giving their time and then they don’t want to do it. Or the schools and organizations make them feel unwelcomed. We have a PTA clique for sure and they are actually all pretty nice, but they’re very used to working together with just the same 6-8 moms and there’s not a lot of use for “outsiders” and occasional volunteers.

I suspect admin often thinks these parents need to volunteer is more about the parents than the kids' needs. In other words, they want the parents to feel involved but don't think they add enough to make it worth the extra work.

I think that’s part of it too. But then you have other posts lamenting the lack of volunteers …

Anonymous wrote:I’ve noticed with the schools, in particular, they have been very reluctant to allow parents/volunteers back in the buildings. Maybe they got used to just doing it all themselves, maybe they cut way back on programs and don’t need as many parent volunteers other than for the 1-2 field trips a year, maybe they’re holding on to old COVID protocols. Maybe a combination of all of these and more. But it’s only been this school year so far that our PTA has even asked for room parents for all the grades, and that they’ve planned a full slate of activities. Last year they had activities (both paid after school and free or cheap, like a Trunk or Treat and a Bingo night), but the teachers and the PTA had nothing for classroom volunteers. Again, apart from field trip chaperones. People get out of the practice of giving their time and then they don’t want to do it. Or the schools and organizations make them feel unwelcomed. We have a PTA clique for sure and they are actually all pretty nice, but they’re very used to working together with just the same 6-8 moms and there’s not a lot of use for “outsiders” and occasional volunteers.

I suspect admin often thinks these parents need to volunteer is more about the parents than the kids' needs. In other words, they want the parents to feel involved but don't think they add enough to make it worth the extra work.

Anonymous wrote:PP and because most of the volunteer activities are overly-planned and too complicated.

Class parties with multiple parent volunteers to oversee an array of changing activities with stations. Teacher Appreciation Week with subcommittees: Door Decorating! Gift Card Collection! Teacher Lunch Potluck from Parents! Teacher Lunch Cateted by Chik Fil A!
6th Grade Grad Party: Decorations/Dance Decorations/Cafeteria. We Still Need Quiet Game Room Volunteers! Anyone have DJ Equipment? Attention Parents of Juniorslease Help with the All Night Grad Party to see how we do this!

So many of these seem silly. Some moms think they are vital and want to do them, so they do them. I am not going to opt out my kid b/c I think it's dumb; these mothers seem to find meaning in it. But I am not going to kill myself to do something unnecessary just b/c Lara's mother thinks it's important

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve noticed with the schools, in particular, they have been very reluctant to allow parents/volunteers back in the buildings. Maybe they got used to just doing it all themselves, maybe they cut way back on programs and don’t need as many parent volunteers other than for the 1-2 field trips a year, maybe they’re holding on to old COVID protocols. Maybe a combination of all of these and more. But it’s only been this school year so far that our PTA has even asked for room parents for all the grades, and that they’ve planned a full slate of activities. Last year they had activities (both paid after school and free or cheap, like a Trunk or Treat and a Bingo night), but the teachers and the PTA had nothing for classroom volunteers. Again, apart from field trip chaperones. People get out of the practice of giving their time and then they don’t want to do it. Or the schools and organizations make them feel unwelcomed. We have a PTA clique for sure and they are actually all pretty nice, but they’re very used to working together with just the same 6-8 moms and there’s not a lot of use for “outsiders” and occasional volunteers.

Yeah but I bet they still took all the freebies and fundraisers for teacher appreciation and gifts and supplies didn’t they?

Teacher haters are so vile.

Anonymous wrote:I think most of us are tired. We did 20 years of childcare work in two years, so don’t go asking for more free labor.,

What? Please explain what you mean by this.

Anonymous wrote:I’ve noticed with the schools, in particular, they have been very reluctant to allow parents/volunteers back in the buildings. Maybe they got used to just doing it all themselves, maybe they cut way back on programs and don’t need as many parent volunteers other than for the 1-2 field trips a year, maybe they’re holding on to old COVID protocols. Maybe a combination of all of these and more. But it’s only been this school year so far that our PTA has even asked for room parents for all the grades, and that they’ve planned a full slate of activities. Last year they had activities (both paid after school and free or cheap, like a Trunk or Treat and a Bingo night), but the teachers and the PTA had nothing for classroom volunteers. Again, apart from field trip chaperones. People get out of the practice of giving their time and then they don’t want to do it. Or the schools and organizations make them feel unwelcomed. We have a PTA clique for sure and they are actually all pretty nice, but they’re very used to working together with just the same 6-8 moms and there’s not a lot of use for “outsiders” and occasional volunteers.

Yeah but I bet they still took all the freebies and fundraisers for teacher appreciation and gifts and supplies didn’t they?