Anonymous
08/28/2024 12:09
Subject: How does a judge decide custody when all the factors to be considered seem equal?
Anonymous wrote:Op, I think some advice here you are getting about rofr it's not good and could be detrimental to your case. You should probably discuss it with your attorney before you decide to refuse or accept it.
OP here. I will not be agreeing to any ROFR clause under 12 hours and I won't agree to a clause that doesn't exempt family members or my girlfriend who lives in the home. My coparent will use it to try to control my parenting time. She and her lawyer are welcome to argue their case as to why it's not in the child's best interest for my girlfriend to take care of our daughter for a couple of hours at our home, or for our daughter to have sleepovers with her grandmother during my parenting time. If the court orders it, so be it.
Anonymous
08/28/2024 11:31
Subject: How does a judge decide custody when all the factors to be considered seem equal?
This OP has 50/50 already, so it's presumed that the child spending time with her parents is in her best interest. Op should consult with his attorney before deciding to refuse or accept a rofr plan.
Anonymous
08/28/2024 11:27
Subject: How does a judge decide custody when all the factors to be considered seem equal?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:If the child is 5, she's probably starting K. If you agree to ROFR, for say 4 hours, the gf can watch her after school, because dad said he gets home at 6 and school usually gets out at 3.
If Dad is working on a non school day, and Mom is available, she would have her. This applies both ways btw, if Mom was not available Dad could have her.
Why would OP agree to this when the mom is erratic and vindictive? I these circumstances it’s better for the parents to have fewer points of friction and more boundaries.
It's in the best interest of the child to have time with both parents. It's not all about the adults.
I think you’re confused. The custody order would provide for each parent to have time with the child. “Best interests” does not mean that the non-custodial parent gets to take the child during the custodial parent’s time. In fact this could be needlessly disruptive and bad for the child.
Why do people keep saying this? The girl can be with mom from 3-8 or with GF 3-6, then dad 6-8. What am I missing here??? I feel like I am taking crazy pills. Is this happening basically every day and if mom got the kid on the days dad was working dad would basically never get the daughter M-F? Is dad doing this because mom has a stronger argument for custody because she has more availability?
You’re missing the fact that OP’s ex appears to be a nutcase, and in those cases, it’s better to have clearer boundaries.
You also misunderstand the pitfalls of ROFR. OP needs childcare to cover the few hours before he gets home from work. What happens when his erratic ex agrees to take the kid then backs out at the last minute?
The point of a child custody agreement is in part to reduce conflict by making everything very clear. ROFR introduces a huge amount of variability that can cause conflict. Moreover, it’s not clear that it’s bad for the child to spend a few hours a day with a grandparent or step-parent figure. That should be the decision of a custodial parent. Also ROFR can lead to ridiculous results, like a kid not being allowed to go to a sleepover or stay overnight with beloved cousins.
There are some good scenarios for ROFR. I’d probably want some version of it if I had shared custody of a baby. But overall it introduces a lot of complexity. There’s plenty written on it: https://www.bryanfagan.com/blog/2024/may/ask-yourself-is-including-a-right-of-first-refus/
Anonymous
08/28/2024 11:19
Subject: Re:How does a judge decide custody when all the factors to be considered seem equal?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The reality is that it will probably go to the mother. The cultural bias for younger kids is that the mother gets custody. In most cases that is fair, because mothers are doing more work. They're taking care of scheduling doctor's appointments and dealing with the school and scheduling sports and classes and doing more hands on care. If the parents are doing equal work, that bias is unfair to the father, but in most cases, women are doing most of the work so it's fair.
The flip side of this is that if men fight for custody, they tend to win.
This was me (dad fought for primary physical custody and won that and legal custody). It has been the absolute worst pain of my life, and extremely humiliating (I can’t help but think that people make negative assumptions about a mother without at least 50/50 custody).
I can understand why RFK Jr’ ex ended it as she did.
There's probably a backstory there that you don't know. My uncle literally bribed my aunt with money to give up custody because she is a drug addict and she did.
Maybe in their case there was a backstory, but in mine we were determined to be “equally fit,” but because exH petitioned for custody he got it. Meanwhile we - me and our two under five kids - were plunged into poverty after I left him for cheating (while pregnant!). I’ve had years to process and adapt, but it still feels so incredibly unfair.
I don't think my uncle disclosed the addiction to court. He handled it privately to avoid embarrassing his ex while keeping the kids safe.
Anonymous
08/28/2024 11:17
Subject: How does a judge decide custody when all the factors to be considered seem equal?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:If the child is 5, she's probably starting K. If you agree to ROFR, for say 4 hours, the gf can watch her after school, because dad said he gets home at 6 and school usually gets out at 3.
If Dad is working on a non school day, and Mom is available, she would have her. This applies both ways btw, if Mom was not available Dad could have her.
Why would OP agree to this when the mom is erratic and vindictive? I these circumstances it’s better for the parents to have fewer points of friction and more boundaries.
It's in the best interest of the child to have time with both parents. It's not all about the adults.
I think you’re confused. The custody order would provide for each parent to have time with the child. “Best interests” does not mean that the non-custodial parent gets to take the child during the custodial parent’s time. In fact this could be needlessly disruptive and bad for the child.
Why do people keep saying this? The girl can be with mom from 3-8 or with GF 3-6, then dad 6-8. What am I missing here??? I feel like I am taking crazy pills. Is this happening basically every day and if mom got the kid on the days dad was working dad would basically never get the daughter M-F? Is dad doing this because mom has a stronger argument for custody because she has more availability?
Anonymous
08/28/2024 11:06
Subject: How does a judge decide custody when all the factors to be considered seem equal?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:If the child is 5, she's probably starting K. If you agree to ROFR, for say 4 hours, the gf can watch her after school, because dad said he gets home at 6 and school usually gets out at 3.
If Dad is working on a non school day, and Mom is available, she would have her. This applies both ways btw, if Mom was not available Dad could have her.
Why would OP agree to this when the mom is erratic and vindictive? I these circumstances it’s better for the parents to have fewer points of friction and more boundaries.
It's in the best interest of the child to have time with both parents. It's not all about the adults.
I think you’re confused. The custody order would provide for each parent to have time with the child. “Best interests” does not mean that the non-custodial parent gets to take the child during the custodial parent’s time. In fact this could be needlessly disruptive and bad for the child.
Anonymous
08/28/2024 11:03
Subject: How does a judge decide custody when all the factors to be considered seem equal?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:If the child is 5, she's probably starting K. If you agree to ROFR, for say 4 hours, the gf can watch her after school, because dad said he gets home at 6 and school usually gets out at 3.
If Dad is working on a non school day, and Mom is available, she would have her. This applies both ways btw, if Mom was not available Dad could have her.
Why would OP agree to this when the mom is erratic and vindictive? I these circumstances it’s better for the parents to have fewer points of friction and more boundaries.
It's in the best interest of the child to have time with both parents. It's not all about the adults.
Anonymous
08/28/2024 11:00
Subject: Re:How does a judge decide custody when all the factors to be considered seem equal?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Here are some examples of the conflicting coparenting philosophies between the parents.
Mom thinks she should be able to take the child to birthdays, family events, etc during Dad’s parenting time if Dad is working and child would otherwise be spending time with other family, Dad’s girlfriend, at preschool, or other play dates etc arranged by Dad. Dad thinks that Mom should provide the information about the event and Dad can choose to facilitate the child’s attendance or decline the child attending.
Mom thinks she should have right of first refusal so that any time that the child is not with Dad she should be offered the time. This would mean the child transitioning between households several times a week due to Dad’s slightly unconventional work schedule making him unavailable for preschool pickup. Mom thinks it’s unfair that the girlfriend (who is now living with Dad and child) or the Dad’s parent does pickup when Mom is available and would love the extra time. Dad thinks the back and forth would be too disruptive to everyone.
Mom thinks that Mom, Dad, and girlfriend should all spend time together occasionally with the child to show that everyone is amicable and respectful. The child has requested this to Mom. Dad is not interested and insists that he only has a duty to be civil and polite during any brief face to face interactions. He continues to say no to these requests.
Is dad's girlfriend doing childcare when mom is available? If so that is weird.
Mom should have right of first refusal but dad has no obligation to spend time with mom socially.
OP said the girlfriend lives with them. Not weird at all for a live-in partner to spend time with the child when Dad is unavailable instead of making the kid go back and forth between households.
No, a girlfriend doesn't get parenting time when an actual parent is available (within the time frame specified by the plan). This also applies to the mom, so Dad would get parenting time before a boyfriend.
that’s … not how it works.
It literally is. What part are you disputing?
right of first refusal is not a default in custody orders. you don’t get to just go and take your kid during the other parent’s time because they left them with a babysitter.
It is where I am, and we chose 4 hours ( some people choose longer, some shorter). It also specifies that school is not part of the time and it only applies to the parents.
Show me the code that makes ROFR the default.
So, I'm not linking 50 states 'codes' for you. I said it is where 'I' am. And other places, but maybe not all. Look up where you live.
Ok, so I’ll take that as confirmation that there is in fact no code requiring ROFR.
Ok, I'll take that as confirmation that you can't read.
let’s try this again: is there an actual state legal requirement (eg statute or regulation) that requires parents to do right of first refusal? I don’t know of any. If you do, please list it.
It is where I am and is in my plan. Feel free to look it up where you are.
Do you understand that parents can voluntarily put terms into custody agreements that are not required by law? What state are you in?
Anonymous
08/28/2024 10:59
Subject: How does a judge decide custody when all the factors to be considered seem equal?
Anonymous wrote:If the child is 5, she's probably starting K. If you agree to ROFR, for say 4 hours, the gf can watch her after school, because dad said he gets home at 6 and school usually gets out at 3.
If Dad is working on a non school day, and Mom is available, she would have her. This applies both ways btw, if Mom was not available Dad could have her.
Why would OP agree to this when the mom is erratic and vindictive? I these circumstances it’s better for the parents to have fewer points of friction and more boundaries.
Anonymous
08/28/2024 10:58
Subject: Re:How does a judge decide custody when all the factors to be considered seem equal?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The reality is that it will probably go to the mother. The cultural bias for younger kids is that the mother gets custody. In most cases that is fair, because mothers are doing more work. They're taking care of scheduling doctor's appointments and dealing with the school and scheduling sports and classes and doing more hands on care. If the parents are doing equal work, that bias is unfair to the father, but in most cases, women are doing most of the work so it's fair.
The flip side of this is that if men fight for custody, they tend to win.
This was me (dad fought for primary physical custody and won that and legal custody). It has been the absolute worst pain of my life, and extremely humiliating (I can’t help but think that people make negative assumptions about a mother without at least 50/50 custody).
I can understand why RFK Jr’ ex ended it as she did.
There's probably a backstory there that you don't know. My uncle literally bribed my aunt with money to give up custody because she is a drug addict and she did.
Maybe in their case there was a backstory, but in mine we were determined to be “equally fit,” but because exH petitioned for custody he got it. Meanwhile we - me and our two under five kids - were plunged into poverty after I left him for cheating (while pregnant!). I’ve had years to process and adapt, but it still feels so incredibly unfair.
Anonymous
08/28/2024 10:56
Subject: How does a judge decide custody when all the factors to be considered seem equal?
Op, I think some advice here you are getting about rofr it's not good and could be detrimental to your case. You should probably discuss it with your attorney before you decide to refuse or accept it.
Anonymous
08/28/2024 10:23
Subject: Re:How does a judge decide custody when all the factors to be considered seem equal?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Here are some examples of the conflicting coparenting philosophies between the parents.
Mom thinks she should be able to take the child to birthdays, family events, etc during Dad’s parenting time if Dad is working and child would otherwise be spending time with other family, Dad’s girlfriend, at preschool, or other play dates etc arranged by Dad. Dad thinks that Mom should provide the information about the event and Dad can choose to facilitate the child’s attendance or decline the child attending.
Mom thinks she should have right of first refusal so that any time that the child is not with Dad she should be offered the time. This would mean the child transitioning between households several times a week due to Dad’s slightly unconventional work schedule making him unavailable for preschool pickup. Mom thinks it’s unfair that the girlfriend (who is now living with Dad and child) or the Dad’s parent does pickup when Mom is available and would love the extra time. Dad thinks the back and forth would be too disruptive to everyone.
Mom thinks that Mom, Dad, and girlfriend should all spend time together occasionally with the child to show that everyone is amicable and respectful. The child has requested this to Mom. Dad is not interested and insists that he only has a duty to be civil and polite during any brief face to face interactions. He continues to say no to these requests.
Is dad's girlfriend doing childcare when mom is available? If so that is weird.
Mom should have right of first refusal but dad has no obligation to spend time with mom socially.
OP said the girlfriend lives with them. Not weird at all for a live-in partner to spend time with the child when Dad is unavailable instead of making the kid go back and forth between households.
No, a girlfriend doesn't get parenting time when an actual parent is available (within the time frame specified by the plan). This also applies to the mom, so Dad would get parenting time before a boyfriend.
that’s … not how it works.
It literally is. What part are you disputing?
right of first refusal is not a default in custody orders. you don’t get to just go and take your kid during the other parent’s time because they left them with a babysitter.
It is where I am, and we chose 4 hours ( some people choose longer, some shorter). It also specifies that school is not part of the time and it only applies to the parents.
Show me the code that makes ROFR the default.
So, I'm not linking 50 states 'codes' for you. I said it is where 'I' am. And other places, but maybe not all. Look up where you live.
Ok, so I’ll take that as confirmation that there is in fact no code requiring ROFR.
Ok, I'll take that as confirmation that you can't read.
let’s try this again: is there an actual state legal requirement (eg statute or regulation) that requires parents to do right of first refusal? I don’t know of any. If you do, please list it.
It is where I am and is in my plan. Feel free to look it up where you are.
Anonymous
08/28/2024 10:20
Subject: How does a judge decide custody when all the factors to be considered seem equal?
If the child is 5, she's probably starting K. If you agree to ROFR, for say 4 hours, the gf can watch her after school, because dad said he gets home at 6 and school usually gets out at 3.
If Dad is working on a non school day, and Mom is available, she would have her. This applies both ways btw, if Mom was not available Dad could have her.
If Dad is working on a non school day, and Mom is available, she would have her. This applies both ways btw, if Mom was not available Dad could have her.
Anonymous
08/28/2024 10:15
Subject: Re:How does a judge decide custody when all the factors to be considered seem equal?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Here are some examples of the conflicting coparenting philosophies between the parents.
Mom thinks she should be able to take the child to birthdays, family events, etc during Dad’s parenting time if Dad is working and child would otherwise be spending time with other family, Dad’s girlfriend, at preschool, or other play dates etc arranged by Dad. Dad thinks that Mom should provide the information about the event and Dad can choose to facilitate the child’s attendance or decline the child attending.
Mom thinks she should have right of first refusal so that any time that the child is not with Dad she should be offered the time. This would mean the child transitioning between households several times a week due to Dad’s slightly unconventional work schedule making him unavailable for preschool pickup. Mom thinks it’s unfair that the girlfriend (who is now living with Dad and child) or the Dad’s parent does pickup when Mom is available and would love the extra time. Dad thinks the back and forth would be too disruptive to everyone.
Mom thinks that Mom, Dad, and girlfriend should all spend time together occasionally with the child to show that everyone is amicable and respectful. The child has requested this to Mom. Dad is not interested and insists that he only has a duty to be civil and polite during any brief face to face interactions. He continues to say no to these requests.
Is dad's girlfriend doing childcare when mom is available? If so that is weird.
Mom should have right of first refusal but dad has no obligation to spend time with mom socially.
OP said the girlfriend lives with them. Not weird at all for a live-in partner to spend time with the child when Dad is unavailable instead of making the kid go back and forth between households.
No, a girlfriend doesn't get parenting time when an actual parent is available (within the time frame specified by the plan). This also applies to the mom, so Dad would get parenting time before a boyfriend.
that’s … not how it works.
It literally is. What part are you disputing?
right of first refusal is not a default in custody orders. you don’t get to just go and take your kid during the other parent’s time because they left them with a babysitter.
It is where I am, and we chose 4 hours ( some people choose longer, some shorter). It also specifies that school is not part of the time and it only applies to the parents.
Show me the code that makes ROFR the default.
So, I'm not linking 50 states 'codes' for you. I said it is where 'I' am. And other places, but maybe not all. Look up where you live.
Ok, so I’ll take that as confirmation that there is in fact no code requiring ROFR.
Ok, I'll take that as confirmation that you can't read.
let’s try this again: is there an actual state legal requirement (eg statute or regulation) that requires parents to do right of first refusal? I don’t know of any. If you do, please list it.
Anonymous
08/28/2024 10:06
Subject: Re:How does a judge decide custody when all the factors to be considered seem equal?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Here are some examples of the conflicting coparenting philosophies between the parents.
Mom thinks she should be able to take the child to birthdays, family events, etc during Dad’s parenting time if Dad is working and child would otherwise be spending time with other family, Dad’s girlfriend, at preschool, or other play dates etc arranged by Dad. Dad thinks that Mom should provide the information about the event and Dad can choose to facilitate the child’s attendance or decline the child attending.
Mom thinks she should have right of first refusal so that any time that the child is not with Dad she should be offered the time. This would mean the child transitioning between households several times a week due to Dad’s slightly unconventional work schedule making him unavailable for preschool pickup. Mom thinks it’s unfair that the girlfriend (who is now living with Dad and child) or the Dad’s parent does pickup when Mom is available and would love the extra time. Dad thinks the back and forth would be too disruptive to everyone.
Mom thinks that Mom, Dad, and girlfriend should all spend time together occasionally with the child to show that everyone is amicable and respectful. The child has requested this to Mom. Dad is not interested and insists that he only has a duty to be civil and polite during any brief face to face interactions. He continues to say no to these requests.
Is dad's girlfriend doing childcare when mom is available? If so that is weird.
Mom should have right of first refusal but dad has no obligation to spend time with mom socially.
OP said the girlfriend lives with them. Not weird at all for a live-in partner to spend time with the child when Dad is unavailable instead of making the kid go back and forth between households.
No, a girlfriend doesn't get parenting time when an actual parent is available (within the time frame specified by the plan). This also applies to the mom, so Dad would get parenting time before a boyfriend.
that’s … not how it works.
It literally is. What part are you disputing?
right of first refusal is not a default in custody orders. you don’t get to just go and take your kid during the other parent’s time because they left them with a babysitter.
It is where I am, and we chose 4 hours ( some people choose longer, some shorter). It also specifies that school is not part of the time and it only applies to the parents.
Show me the code that makes ROFR the default.
So, I'm not linking 50 states 'codes' for you. I said it is where 'I' am. And other places, but maybe not all. Look up where you live.
Ok, so I’ll take that as confirmation that there is in fact no code requiring ROFR.
Ok, I'll take that as confirmation that you can't read.