Anonymous wrote:I was unprepared for the aesthetic of this year's crop of new hires. They dress horribly - sweatpants, messy hair (looks like they just got out of bed), crocs or other plastic shoes, rumpled t-shirts. For some tasks this is OK, but a lot of the time we are meeting with clients and doing site visits, and we are in the design industry, meaning we generally consider our look part of our branding. Our brand is high end but creative, so there is a lot of leeway, but I just don't know how to tell the younger adults how to dress without offending anyone or being seen to police bodies or hairstyles. But I need them not just to adhere to a list of "don't wear this," but to actively look good. Like, hair combed and styled, preferably some makeup for women, and so on. Does anyone else have this issue and how did you handle it?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was unprepared for the aesthetic of this year's crop of new hires. They dress horribly - sweatpants, messy hair (looks like they just got out of bed), crocs or other plastic shoes, rumpled t-shirts. For some tasks this is OK, but a lot of the time we are meeting with clients and doing site visits, and we are in the design industry, meaning we generally consider our look part of our branding. Our brand is high end but creative, so there is a lot of leeway, but I just don't know how to tell the younger adults how to dress without offending anyone or being seen to police bodies or hairstyles. But I need them not just to adhere to a list of "don't wear this," but to actively look good. Like, hair combed and styled, preferably some makeup for women, and so on. Does anyone else have this issue and how did you handle it?

Right....and Im sure you would consider a man wearing makeup and nail polish to be suitably dressed and pleasingly aesthetically to your clients?

I dont wear makeup because its dumb, expensive, and lots of chemicals for no real purpose. Sunscreen chemicals get balanced with sun exposure and risk of cancer. There is no balance benefit to makeup besides societal expectations. Not to mention that most people have no idea how much makeup it takes to make a "no makeup" look.

I'm fine if they don't want to wear makeup, but I'm not fine with a messy, frizzy ponytail topping it off. I don't care what the specific look is, but I need them to look good. Our clients are dressed up, our brand is high end and all about aesthetics. I can't even bring them into the sites with me sometimes because they look so bad that I'm sure they would cost us a sale.

Interesting? How many men under you have enough hair for a ponytail?

Two, and ironically, they are the exceptions. One wears dreds, and the other wears a man bun. Neither one ever wears a messy ponytail with bits hanging out and sticking out all over like they just got out of bed or were exercising or something. Also, both are a bit older than the newer kids, which is probably the difference. Your response is exactly why this is so difficult - it's impossible to find a way to ask people to look neat and well-groomed, in whatever style they prefer, without seeming sexist or otherwise out of touch.

So I want to be clear that you have 2 Male employees with dreds and a man bun and they are put together enough for you but somehow all of the women with a bun/ponytail do NOT?

Do the males also dress appropriately in your opinion?

I am beginning to think that you may have a lot higher threshold for appropriate dress for women than you do men. Honestly, I am not being snarky. Its internalized and if you are a woman, then you have likely had to keep these standards and now think other women should too.

There tends to be some underlying sexual overtones in the business world where businesses with prettier females are rated higher because of the world we all grew up in, regardless of the scope of work and/or the product. This happens in places like restaurants all the freaking time. Females dress up and thats what they are judged by and if pretty enough they can give mediocre service and still get great tips. Guys can be somewhat unkempt or not good looking and if they have a personality then its fine. Girls cannot do the same, by and large.

Just tread carefully because Gen Z doesnt care about those rules.

DP. I think you must be Gen Z and are just trying to be combative and/or worked in a restaurant and got bad tips. There is a huge difference between well-done dreds or a man bun and anyone who throws their hair back in a messy ponytail. Well-done dreds and man buns absolutely can be perfect for a creative office environment, provided they are combined with appropriate work casual clothes.

No I am almost 40 years old but there is a lot of female-focused corrections in her post. I 100% agree with you on dreds and man bun and most men look amazing with both. But her comments about dress that started it mentioned makeup and messy ponytails and then she made sure to mention that even the women in the firms they visit have suits on. Most men dont wear yoga pants, which she mentioned when she suggested slacks nor do they wear athletic tights but I could be wrong.

Lastly, OP has refused to answer how they were dressed when they interviewed nor the suggestions that this should be done with HR. I could have missed her responses to those very frequent suggestions on this topic.

Also, I'm the combative one but you aren't for mentioning that I must have received "bad tips" because I put into written word that women are expected to be prettier in almost all occupations especially in service roles?

It's much harder to define "looking appropriate" for women, since there is a lot more variety in women's fashion in general. It's also trickier, since the wrong wording can turn a desire for work-appropriate looks into something sexist, which was the whole problem to begin with. Also, there are problems with the male workforce as well, but the posters here seem fixated on finding a way to make the original issue about sexism and not about how to encourage appropriate workwear *without* being sexist. For the record, some of the male workers have shown up in sweatpants, sometimes ripped or stained, or what appear to be running shorts at times when those things were definitely not OK. --OP

Because they are not posting in good faith. They don’t want you to address this issue at at.

I think the underlying issue is that Gen Z doesnt know how to dress professionally, from head to toe. In the 2000s and before we had magazines, TV shows like what not to wear. Now we have none of that, just tiktokers, blind leading the blind.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was unprepared for the aesthetic of this year's crop of new hires. They dress horribly - sweatpants, messy hair (looks like they just got out of bed), crocs or other plastic shoes, rumpled t-shirts. For some tasks this is OK, but a lot of the time we are meeting with clients and doing site visits, and we are in the design industry, meaning we generally consider our look part of our branding. Our brand is high end but creative, so there is a lot of leeway, but I just don't know how to tell the younger adults how to dress without offending anyone or being seen to police bodies or hairstyles. But I need them not just to adhere to a list of "don't wear this," but to actively look good. Like, hair combed and styled, preferably some makeup for women, and so on. Does anyone else have this issue and how did you handle it?

Right....and Im sure you would consider a man wearing makeup and nail polish to be suitably dressed and pleasingly aesthetically to your clients?

I dont wear makeup because its dumb, expensive, and lots of chemicals for no real purpose. Sunscreen chemicals get balanced with sun exposure and risk of cancer. There is no balance benefit to makeup besides societal expectations. Not to mention that most people have no idea how much makeup it takes to make a "no makeup" look.

I'm fine if they don't want to wear makeup, but I'm not fine with a messy, frizzy ponytail topping it off. I don't care what the specific look is, but I need them to look good. Our clients are dressed up, our brand is high end and all about aesthetics. I can't even bring them into the sites with me sometimes because they look so bad that I'm sure they would cost us a sale.

Interesting? How many men under you have enough hair for a ponytail?

Two, and ironically, they are the exceptions. One wears dreds, and the other wears a man bun. Neither one ever wears a messy ponytail with bits hanging out and sticking out all over like they just got out of bed or were exercising or something. Also, both are a bit older than the newer kids, which is probably the difference. Your response is exactly why this is so difficult - it's impossible to find a way to ask people to look neat and well-groomed, in whatever style they prefer, without seeming sexist or otherwise out of touch.

So I want to be clear that you have 2 Male employees with dreds and a man bun and they are put together enough for you but somehow all of the women with a bun/ponytail do NOT?

Do the males also dress appropriately in your opinion?

I am beginning to think that you may have a lot higher threshold for appropriate dress for women than you do men. Honestly, I am not being snarky. Its internalized and if you are a woman, then you have likely had to keep these standards and now think other women should too.

There tends to be some underlying sexual overtones in the business world where businesses with prettier females are rated higher because of the world we all grew up in, regardless of the scope of work and/or the product. This happens in places like restaurants all the freaking time. Females dress up and thats what they are judged by and if pretty enough they can give mediocre service and still get great tips. Guys can be somewhat unkempt or not good looking and if they have a personality then its fine. Girls cannot do the same, by and large.

Just tread carefully because Gen Z doesnt care about those rules.

DP. I think you must be Gen Z and are just trying to be combative and/or worked in a restaurant and got bad tips. There is a huge difference between well-done dreds or a man bun and anyone who throws their hair back in a messy ponytail. Well-done dreds and man buns absolutely can be perfect for a creative office environment, provided they are combined with appropriate work casual clothes.

No I am almost 40 years old but there is a lot of female-focused corrections in her post. I 100% agree with you on dreds and man bun and most men look amazing with both. But her comments about dress that started it mentioned makeup and messy ponytails and then she made sure to mention that even the women in the firms they visit have suits on. Most men dont wear yoga pants, which she mentioned when she suggested slacks nor do they wear athletic tights but I could be wrong.

Lastly, OP has refused to answer how they were dressed when they interviewed nor the suggestions that this should be done with HR. I could have missed her responses to those very frequent suggestions on this topic.

Also, I'm the combative one but you aren't for mentioning that I must have received "bad tips" because I put into written word that women are expected to be prettier in almost all occupations especially in service roles?

It's much harder to define "looking appropriate" for women, since there is a lot more variety in women's fashion in general. It's also trickier, since the wrong wording can turn a desire for work-appropriate looks into something sexist, which was the whole problem to begin with. Also, there are problems with the male workforce as well, but the posters here seem fixated on finding a way to make the original issue about sexism and not about how to encourage appropriate workwear *without* being sexist. For the record, some of the male workers have shown up in sweatpants, sometimes ripped or stained, or what appear to be running shorts at times when those things were definitely not OK. --OP

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was unprepared for the aesthetic of this year's crop of new hires. They dress horribly - sweatpants, messy hair (looks like they just got out of bed), crocs or other plastic shoes, rumpled t-shirts. For some tasks this is OK, but a lot of the time we are meeting with clients and doing site visits, and we are in the design industry, meaning we generally consider our look part of our branding. Our brand is high end but creative, so there is a lot of leeway, but I just don't know how to tell the younger adults how to dress without offending anyone or being seen to police bodies or hairstyles. But I need them not just to adhere to a list of "don't wear this," but to actively look good. Like, hair combed and styled, preferably some makeup for women, and so on. Does anyone else have this issue and how did you handle it?

Right....and Im sure you would consider a man wearing makeup and nail polish to be suitably dressed and pleasingly aesthetically to your clients?

I dont wear makeup because its dumb, expensive, and lots of chemicals for no real purpose. Sunscreen chemicals get balanced with sun exposure and risk of cancer. There is no balance benefit to makeup besides societal expectations. Not to mention that most people have no idea how much makeup it takes to make a "no makeup" look.

I'm fine if they don't want to wear makeup, but I'm not fine with a messy, frizzy ponytail topping it off. I don't care what the specific look is, but I need them to look good. Our clients are dressed up, our brand is high end and all about aesthetics. I can't even bring them into the sites with me sometimes because they look so bad that I'm sure they would cost us a sale.

Interesting? How many men under you have enough hair for a ponytail?

Two, and ironically, they are the exceptions. One wears dreds, and the other wears a man bun. Neither one ever wears a messy ponytail with bits hanging out and sticking out all over like they just got out of bed or were exercising or something. Also, both are a bit older than the newer kids, which is probably the difference. Your response is exactly why this is so difficult - it's impossible to find a way to ask people to look neat and well-groomed, in whatever style they prefer, without seeming sexist or otherwise out of touch.

So I want to be clear that you have 2 Male employees with dreds and a man bun and they are put together enough for you but somehow all of the women with a bun/ponytail do NOT?

Do the males also dress appropriately in your opinion?

I am beginning to think that you may have a lot higher threshold for appropriate dress for women than you do men. Honestly, I am not being snarky. Its internalized and if you are a woman, then you have likely had to keep these standards and now think other women should too.

There tends to be some underlying sexual overtones in the business world where businesses with prettier females are rated higher because of the world we all grew up in, regardless of the scope of work and/or the product. This happens in places like restaurants all the freaking time. Females dress up and thats what they are judged by and if pretty enough they can give mediocre service and still get great tips. Guys can be somewhat unkempt or not good looking and if they have a personality then its fine. Girls cannot do the same, by and large.

Just tread carefully because Gen Z doesnt care about those rules.

DP. I think you must be Gen Z and are just trying to be combative and/or worked in a restaurant and got bad tips. There is a huge difference between well-done dreds or a man bun and anyone who throws their hair back in a messy ponytail. Well-done dreds and man buns absolutely can be perfect for a creative office environment, provided they are combined with appropriate work casual clothes.

No I am almost 40 years old but there is a lot of female-focused corrections in her post. I 100% agree with you on dreds and man bun and most men look amazing with both. But her comments about dress that started it mentioned makeup and messy ponytails and then she made sure to mention that even the women in the firms they visit have suits on. Most men dont wear yoga pants, which she mentioned when she suggested slacks nor do they wear athletic tights but I could be wrong.

Lastly, OP has refused to answer how they were dressed when they interviewed nor the suggestions that this should be done with HR. I could have missed her responses to those very frequent suggestions on this topic.

Also, I'm the combative one but you aren't for mentioning that I must have received "bad tips" because I put into written word that women are expected to be prettier in almost all occupations especially in service roles?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was unprepared for the aesthetic of this year's crop of new hires. They dress horribly - sweatpants, messy hair (looks like they just got out of bed), crocs or other plastic shoes, rumpled t-shirts. For some tasks this is OK, but a lot of the time we are meeting with clients and doing site visits, and we are in the design industry, meaning we generally consider our look part of our branding. Our brand is high end but creative, so there is a lot of leeway, but I just don't know how to tell the younger adults how to dress without offending anyone or being seen to police bodies or hairstyles. But I need them not just to adhere to a list of "don't wear this," but to actively look good. Like, hair combed and styled, preferably some makeup for women, and so on. Does anyone else have this issue and how did you handle it?

Right....and Im sure you would consider a man wearing makeup and nail polish to be suitably dressed and pleasingly aesthetically to your clients?

I dont wear makeup because its dumb, expensive, and lots of chemicals for no real purpose. Sunscreen chemicals get balanced with sun exposure and risk of cancer. There is no balance benefit to makeup besides societal expectations. Not to mention that most people have no idea how much makeup it takes to make a "no makeup" look.

I'm fine if they don't want to wear makeup, but I'm not fine with a messy, frizzy ponytail topping it off. I don't care what the specific look is, but I need them to look good. Our clients are dressed up, our brand is high end and all about aesthetics. I can't even bring them into the sites with me sometimes because they look so bad that I'm sure they would cost us a sale.

Interesting? How many men under you have enough hair for a ponytail?

Two, and ironically, they are the exceptions. One wears dreds, and the other wears a man bun. Neither one ever wears a messy ponytail with bits hanging out and sticking out all over like they just got out of bed or were exercising or something. Also, both are a bit older than the newer kids, which is probably the difference. Your response is exactly why this is so difficult - it's impossible to find a way to ask people to look neat and well-groomed, in whatever style they prefer, without seeming sexist or otherwise out of touch.

So I want to be clear that you have 2 Male employees with dreds and a man bun and they are put together enough for you but somehow all of the women with a bun/ponytail do NOT?

Do the males also dress appropriately in your opinion?

I am beginning to think that you may have a lot higher threshold for appropriate dress for women than you do men. Honestly, I am not being snarky. Its internalized and if you are a woman, then you have likely had to keep these standards and now think other women should too.

There tends to be some underlying sexual overtones in the business world where businesses with prettier females are rated higher because of the world we all grew up in, regardless of the scope of work and/or the product. This happens in places like restaurants all the freaking time. Females dress up and thats what they are judged by and if pretty enough they can give mediocre service and still get great tips. Guys can be somewhat unkempt or not good looking and if they have a personality then its fine. Girls cannot do the same, by and large.

Just tread carefully because Gen Z doesnt care about those rules.

DP. I think you must be Gen Z and are just trying to be combative and/or worked in a restaurant and got bad tips. There is a huge difference between well-done dreds or a man bun and anyone who throws their hair back in a messy ponytail. Well-done dreds and man buns absolutely can be perfect for a creative office environment, provided they are combined with appropriate work casual clothes.

No I am almost 40 years old but there is a lot of female-focused corrections in her post. I 100% agree with you on dreds and man bun and most men look amazing with both. But her comments about dress that started it mentioned makeup and messy ponytails and then she made sure to mention that even the women in the firms they visit have suits on. Most men dont wear yoga pants, which she mentioned when she suggested slacks nor do they wear athletic tights but I could be wrong.

Lastly, OP has refused to answer how they were dressed when they interviewed nor the suggestions that this should be done with HR. I could have missed her responses to those very frequent suggestions on this topic.

Also, I'm the combative one but you aren't for mentioning that I must have received "bad tips" because I put into written word that women are expected to be prettier in almost all occupations especially in service roles?

I have a sense the OP stands by what whe said. All of these comments are just whataboutism and excuses. Just say you want to dress however you want and look however you want and are not concerned with norms but all of these attempts to tell her oooh you are such a bad person fall flat.

I dont think anyone has called her a bad person. More like check your bias and make sure you are being consistent amongst your employees regardless of their gender, race, etc. Hence the suggestions to have HR do this.

She doesn't have a bias. Standards are inherently a bias. You attempts at calling out contrived discrimination are an attempt to disarm. Sometimes, at work, and at other places in society we really can't just do what we want. And yes, we are not always going to have a say in the rules. What you call pushback at times may be at the least excuse-making and at the worst insubordination.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was unprepared for the aesthetic of this year's crop of new hires. They dress horribly - sweatpants, messy hair (looks like they just got out of bed), crocs or other plastic shoes, rumpled t-shirts. For some tasks this is OK, but a lot of the time we are meeting with clients and doing site visits, and we are in the design industry, meaning we generally consider our look part of our branding. Our brand is high end but creative, so there is a lot of leeway, but I just don't know how to tell the younger adults how to dress without offending anyone or being seen to police bodies or hairstyles. But I need them not just to adhere to a list of "don't wear this," but to actively look good. Like, hair combed and styled, preferably some makeup for women, and so on. Does anyone else have this issue and how did you handle it?

Right....and Im sure you would consider a man wearing makeup and nail polish to be suitably dressed and pleasingly aesthetically to your clients?

I dont wear makeup because its dumb, expensive, and lots of chemicals for no real purpose. Sunscreen chemicals get balanced with sun exposure and risk of cancer. There is no balance benefit to makeup besides societal expectations. Not to mention that most people have no idea how much makeup it takes to make a "no makeup" look.

I'm fine if they don't want to wear makeup, but I'm not fine with a messy, frizzy ponytail topping it off. I don't care what the specific look is, but I need them to look good. Our clients are dressed up, our brand is high end and all about aesthetics. I can't even bring them into the sites with me sometimes because they look so bad that I'm sure they would cost us a sale.

Interesting? How many men under you have enough hair for a ponytail?

Two, and ironically, they are the exceptions. One wears dreds, and the other wears a man bun. Neither one ever wears a messy ponytail with bits hanging out and sticking out all over like they just got out of bed or were exercising or something. Also, both are a bit older than the newer kids, which is probably the difference. Your response is exactly why this is so difficult - it's impossible to find a way to ask people to look neat and well-groomed, in whatever style they prefer, without seeming sexist or otherwise out of touch.

So I want to be clear that you have 2 Male employees with dreds and a man bun and they are put together enough for you but somehow all of the women with a bun/ponytail do NOT?

Do the males also dress appropriately in your opinion?

I am beginning to think that you may have a lot higher threshold for appropriate dress for women than you do men. Honestly, I am not being snarky. Its internalized and if you are a woman, then you have likely had to keep these standards and now think other women should too.

There tends to be some underlying sexual overtones in the business world where businesses with prettier females are rated higher because of the world we all grew up in, regardless of the scope of work and/or the product. This happens in places like restaurants all the freaking time. Females dress up and thats what they are judged by and if pretty enough they can give mediocre service and still get great tips. Guys can be somewhat unkempt or not good looking and if they have a personality then its fine. Girls cannot do the same, by and large.

Just tread carefully because Gen Z doesnt care about those rules.

DP. I think you must be Gen Z and are just trying to be combative and/or worked in a restaurant and got bad tips. There is a huge difference between well-done dreds or a man bun and anyone who throws their hair back in a messy ponytail. Well-done dreds and man buns absolutely can be perfect for a creative office environment, provided they are combined with appropriate work casual clothes.

No I am almost 40 years old but there is a lot of female-focused corrections in her post. I 100% agree with you on dreds and man bun and most men look amazing with both. But her comments about dress that started it mentioned makeup and messy ponytails and then she made sure to mention that even the women in the firms they visit have suits on. Most men dont wear yoga pants, which she mentioned when she suggested slacks nor do they wear athletic tights but I could be wrong.

Lastly, OP has refused to answer how they were dressed when they interviewed nor the suggestions that this should be done with HR. I could have missed her responses to those very frequent suggestions on this topic.

Also, I'm the combative one but you aren't for mentioning that I must have received "bad tips" because I put into written word that women are expected to be prettier in almost all occupations especially in service roles?

I have a sense the OP stands by what whe said. All of these comments are just whataboutism and excuses. Just say you want to dress however you want and look however you want and are not concerned with norms but all of these attempts to tell her oooh you are such a bad person fall flat.

I dont think anyone has called her a bad person. More like check your bias and make sure you are being consistent amongst your employees regardless of their gender, race, etc. Hence the suggestions to have HR do this.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe you are just and old fuddy duddy and not "in" with the new styles? You sound like my grandmother tut-tutting my perfectly normal outfits.

If your clients are creative, they may be more likely to appreciate the GenZ style vs a fuddy duddy.

There has always been business attire and casual attire.
People in my office also notice that Gen Z doesn't dress appropriately. Today one wore a cream colored see through dress and we can all see her thong underwear. Another one is wearing a crop top that exposes her belly with leather pants. Nothing fuddy duddy about workplace guidelines about what not to wear.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe you are just and old fuddy duddy and not "in" with the new styles? You sound like my grandmother tut-tutting my perfectly normal outfits.

If your clients are creative, they may be more likely to appreciate the GenZ style vs a fuddy duddy.

Sweatpants and flip flops are not trendy styles, they’re unprofessional. Does your company have any sort of policy stating business casual, or professional, etc? You can’t address gender or make up but you can specify no flip flips, athletic clothing, leisure wear for all genders. Even differentiate between attire for outside clients vs more casual clothing for internal tasks only.

I've tried - but "slacks" translated as yoga pants for them, and no flip flops just means they wear other plastic sandals or athletic shoes. The issue is that they don't seem to have any clue how to dress. I'm considering a dress code that says something like "pretend you're going to the club." Surely they don't go out like this?

You need to find the ones who had to wear uniforms to school and abide by a dress code.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe you are just and old fuddy duddy and not "in" with the new styles? You sound like my grandmother tut-tutting my perfectly normal outfits.

If your clients are creative, they may be more likely to appreciate the GenZ style vs a fuddy duddy.

Sweatpants and flip flops are not trendy styles, they’re unprofessional. Does your company have any sort of policy stating business casual, or professional, etc? You can’t address gender or make up but you can specify no flip flips, athletic clothing, leisure wear for all genders. Even differentiate between attire for outside clients vs more casual clothing for internal tasks only.

I've tried - but "slacks" translated as yoga pants for them, and no flip flops just means they wear other plastic sandals or athletic shoes. The issue is that they don't seem to have any clue how to dress. I'm considering a dress code that says something like "pretend you're going to the club." Surely they don't go out like this?

Anonymous wrote:I'm curious -- did they dress to impress for their job interviews? Or did they dress this way and you hired them anyway?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was unprepared for the aesthetic of this year's crop of new hires. They dress horribly - sweatpants, messy hair (looks like they just got out of bed), crocs or other plastic shoes, rumpled t-shirts. For some tasks this is OK, but a lot of the time we are meeting with clients and doing site visits, and we are in the design industry, meaning we generally consider our look part of our branding. Our brand is high end but creative, so there is a lot of leeway, but I just don't know how to tell the younger adults how to dress without offending anyone or being seen to police bodies or hairstyles. But I need them not just to adhere to a list of "don't wear this," but to actively look good. Like, hair combed and styled, preferably some makeup for women, and so on. Does anyone else have this issue and how did you handle it?

Right....and Im sure you would consider a man wearing makeup and nail polish to be suitably dressed and pleasingly aesthetically to your clients?

I dont wear makeup because its dumb, expensive, and lots of chemicals for no real purpose. Sunscreen chemicals get balanced with sun exposure and risk of cancer. There is no balance benefit to makeup besides societal expectations. Not to mention that most people have no idea how much makeup it takes to make a "no makeup" look.

I'm fine if they don't want to wear makeup, but I'm not fine with a messy, frizzy ponytail topping it off. I don't care what the specific look is, but I need them to look good. Our clients are dressed up, our brand is high end and all about aesthetics. I can't even bring them into the sites with me sometimes because they look so bad that I'm sure they would cost us a sale.

Interesting? How many men under you have enough hair for a ponytail?

Two, and ironically, they are the exceptions. One wears dreds, and the other wears a man bun. Neither one ever wears a messy ponytail with bits hanging out and sticking out all over like they just got out of bed or were exercising or something. Also, both are a bit older than the newer kids, which is probably the difference. Your response is exactly why this is so difficult - it's impossible to find a way to ask people to look neat and well-groomed, in whatever style they prefer, without seeming sexist or otherwise out of touch.

So I want to be clear that you have 2 Male employees with dreds and a man bun and they are put together enough for you but somehow all of the women with a bun/ponytail do NOT?

Do the males also dress appropriately in your opinion?

I am beginning to think that you may have a lot higher threshold for appropriate dress for women than you do men. Honestly, I am not being snarky. Its internalized and if you are a woman, then you have likely had to keep these standards and now think other women should too.

There tends to be some underlying sexual overtones in the business world where businesses with prettier females are rated higher because of the world we all grew up in, regardless of the scope of work and/or the product. This happens in places like restaurants all the freaking time. Females dress up and thats what they are judged by and if pretty enough they can give mediocre service and still get great tips. Guys can be somewhat unkempt or not good looking and if they have a personality then its fine. Girls cannot do the same, by and large.

Just tread carefully because Gen Z doesnt care about those rules.

DP. I think you must be Gen Z and are just trying to be combative and/or worked in a restaurant and got bad tips. There is a huge difference between well-done dreds or a man bun and anyone who throws their hair back in a messy ponytail. Well-done dreds and man buns absolutely can be perfect for a creative office environment, provided they are combined with appropriate work casual clothes.

No I am almost 40 years old but there is a lot of female-focused corrections in her post. I 100% agree with you on dreds and man bun and most men look amazing with both. But her comments about dress that started it mentioned makeup and messy ponytails and then she made sure to mention that even the women in the firms they visit have suits on. Most men dont wear yoga pants, which she mentioned when she suggested slacks nor do they wear athletic tights but I could be wrong.

Lastly, OP has refused to answer how they were dressed when they interviewed nor the suggestions that this should be done with HR. I could have missed her responses to those very frequent suggestions on this topic.

Also, I'm the combative one but you aren't for mentioning that I must have received "bad tips" because I put into written word that women are expected to be prettier in almost all occupations especially in service roles?

I have a sense the OP stands by what whe said. All of these comments are just whataboutism and excuses. Just say you want to dress however you want and look however you want and are not concerned with norms but all of these attempts to tell her oooh you are such a bad person fall flat.