The title of this thread needs to be changed. It is flat out false.

Anonymous wrote:https://admissions.umich.edu/apply/first-year-applicants/requirements-deadlines/application-changes

U Michigan is moving to test optional next year and will no longer consider AP or IB scores in admissions decisions.

False. Do your own research. Do not rely on anything posted here

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:what do you guys think the rationale behind the no AP score change is?

There are too many white and Asian kids who ace AP exams, and not enough of the other racial groups who get good enough scores while taking them or can even take them.

The way towards equity is always to lower the bar.

UM is now a 2nd, borderline 3rd tier school now.

WAHH IM ANGRY AT BROWN KIDS GOING TO COLLEGE SO UMICH IS 3RD TIER EVEN THOUGH NO ONE ELSE HAS EVER AGREED WITH THIS ASSESSMENT, WAAHHH. The whining is incessant.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:what do you guys think the rationale behind the no AP score change is?

Equity. Or too much for their algorithm

Prob. the latter or they find that a strong AP score highly correlates to a high SAT/ACT as well so why waste time? As it is, they seem to run out of time and blanket defer applications to the RD round. This is one just less variable.

good for them!

Will they give credit for AP scores?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://admissions.umich.edu/apply/first-year-applicants/requirements-deadlines/application-changes

U Michigan is moving to test optional next year and will no longer consider AP or IB scores in admissions decisions.

Blatantly false. The linked page does not say that.


It says:

"Advancement Placement (AP) scores, International Baccalaureate (IB) grades, and predicted results or other international credentials will be considered in context with the academic record, "

"Where AP is available, excessive AP participation is neither required nor encouraged."

We are in state. The note about excessive AP participation makes sense to me. From hanging out on DCUM for an admissions season, I've noticed what a different world it is in the prestige public schools in the DMV. Our better districts don't tend to have APs targeted for freshman enrollment. And we don't have a ton of kids getting past Calc BC in high school. Maybe the school districts are less resourced or maybe there's just not a need to push everything to the max in high school. Probably both are true. I never even considered the idea of a student studying for an AP without taking the class until I came to this site. We're more naive out here far from striverville.

With OOS students, I think Michigan's challenge is figuring out who really wants to attend vs. highly qualified people who apply as part of a spray and pray campaign or safety school attempt. For making that detemination, a student doing well on 15 vs. 6 APs vs. 0 APs doesn't really answer that question. I think that's what is being communicated. Also not to expect that you got in because of your 15 APs and then feel cheated because your in-state roommate wasn't forced to endure a similar track.

Anyway, there seem to be a number of pitfalls with the AP system. I'm not really sure it's smart to waive a whole year of college intro courses based on cramming dry textbooks with high school peers. I can understand the financial imperatives but beyond that I have some issues.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But then why are Michigan's SAT's so low compared to the schools listed above?

Well for one thing, a poster said high scoring students won't apply.

And the data shown was about enrolled students.

There are three possible types of score distributions here:

-Applicants
-Admitted
-Enrolled

Gotcha. Hopefully the trend of high scoring applicants not applying is abated, although I guess relying less on the SAT won't be helpful for that. Kids are prestige chasers...if all the high SAT scorers are applying to X, and the low scoring ones to Y, you'll get a tautological cycle of only low scorers applying to Michigan.

Most kids who copy and chase are chasing the name brand for their shirt, the perceived fun factor, and the sports watching opportunities. Michigan is doing well in all these categories.

Kids are not saying: "I won't go to X because the SAT distribution is too low and mine is too high to go there". They are instead likely to say "I am applying to 15 schools because I'm afraid I won't get in anywhere good."

Think about it then ask a kid if you still think kids are motivated by SAT distributions. By ranking, yes, by acceptance rate, yes, by SAT distribution...I don't think so.

I know Sasha Obama transferred and Lourdes Ciccone dropped out...but any state school that can attract a President's kid and a rock star's kid to attend does not need to worry about how some parents view the SAT distribution. There are definitely more than enough applicants.

My personal feeling is that test optional allows universities to consider candidates who are capable of doing the work but don't have access to great schools, enrichment opportunities, etc. Michigan certainly has enough data on the in-state high schools to know retention and graduation rates for its admitted students from them. So doesn't have to require standardized test data to predict which in-state applicants will be able to succeed.

I think Madonna herself attended (3 years) for longer than Lourdes. Lourdes was in my DCs year- not sure she was actually attending classes after freshman year. But it was fun to be on campus at the same time as Madonna, sadly we never ran into her although she did go to local restaurants and was out and about.

PP. Lourdes obviously has so much money, even of her own from modeling, that she didn't need to go to college. I think her mom just wanted her to have a chance to try it. Michigan is a good place for a celebrity kid to hide out because it's a financially inconvenient place for a paparazzo to hang out (few other saleable targets) and the university police could keep harassing people away if needed.

There are vague mentions on the web of Lourdes next going to SUNY Purchase but none seem reliable.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://admissions.umich.edu/apply/first-year-applicants/requirements-deadlines/application-changes

U Michigan is moving to test optional next year and will no longer consider AP or IB scores in admissions decisions.

Blatantly false. The linked page does not say that.


It says:

"Advancement Placement (AP) scores, International Baccalaureate (IB) grades, and predicted results or other international credentials will be considered in context with the academic record, "

"Where AP is available, excessive AP participation is neither required nor encouraged."

+1

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But then why are Michigan's SAT's so low compared to the schools listed above?

Well for one thing, a poster said high scoring students won't apply.

And the data shown was about enrolled students.

There are three possible types of score distributions here:

-Applicants
-Admitted
-Enrolled

Gotcha. Hopefully the trend of high scoring applicants not applying is abated, although I guess relying less on the SAT won't be helpful for that. Kids are prestige chasers...if all the high SAT scorers are applying to X, and the low scoring ones to Y, you'll get a tautological cycle of only low scorers applying to Michigan.

Most kids who copy and chase are chasing the name brand for their shirt, the perceived fun factor, and the sports watching opportunities. Michigan is doing well in all these categories.

Kids are not saying: "I won't go to X because the SAT distribution is too low and mine is too high to go there". They are instead likely to say "I am applying to 15 schools because I'm afraid I won't get in anywhere good."

Think about it then ask a kid if you still think kids are motivated by SAT distributions. By ranking, yes, by acceptance rate, yes, by SAT distribution...I don't think so.

I know Sasha Obama transferred and Lourdes Ciccone dropped out...but any state school that can attract a President's kid and a rock star's kid to attend does not need to worry about how some parents view the SAT distribution. There are definitely more than enough applicants.

My personal feeling is that test optional allows universities to consider candidates who are capable of doing the work but don't have access to great schools, enrichment opportunities, etc. Michigan certainly has enough data on the in-state high schools to know retention and graduation rates for its admitted students from them. So doesn't have to require standardized test data to predict which in-state applicants will be able to succeed.

I think Madonna herself attended (3 years) for longer than Lourdes. Lourdes was in my DCs year- not sure she was actually attending classes after freshman year. But it was fun to be on campus at the same time as Madonna, sadly we never ran into her although she did go to local restaurants and was out and about.

Anonymous wrote:https://admissions.umich.edu/apply/first-year-applicants/requirements-deadlines/application-changes

U Michigan is moving to test optional next year and will no longer consider AP or IB scores in admissions decisions.

Blatantly false. The linked page does not say that.


It says:

"Advancement Placement (AP) scores, International Baccalaureate (IB) grades, and predicted results or other international credentials will be considered in context with the academic record, "

"Where AP is available, excessive AP participation is neither required nor encouraged."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Data for Michigan:

2020-2021 Common Data Set (pre-Covid):
http://obp.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/pubdata/cds/cds_2020-2021_umaa.pdf

25th Percentile 1340; 660 Evidence Based Reading, 680 Math
75th Percentile 1520, 740 Evidence Based Reading, 780 Math

Thanks, this makes sense now. So for Michigan, it would be more accurate to list it this way:

UMich 1340-1520

Their 75% is around the same as the other schools listed, it’s just their 25% is lower, due to on state applicants.

That is always the price that a public school has to pay. They will never be able to attract the same quality of students as a private school across the board. Nothing inherently wrong with the school, just that one has public mission. Michigan has been expanding its enrollment in a big way. This allows more Michigan residents an opportunity to climb the social ladder. No selective private school has experienced a similar increase in its enrollment.

Where quality = children from high SES houeholds.

Yes, agreed, nothing inherently wrong in seeking to expand, rather than hoard, access to socioeconomic success.

Thanks for calling that out.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Data for Michigan:

2020-2021 Common Data Set (pre-Covid):
http://obp.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/pubdata/cds/cds_2020-2021_umaa.pdf

25th Percentile 1340; 660 Evidence Based Reading, 680 Math
75th Percentile 1520, 740 Evidence Based Reading, 780 Math

Thanks, this makes sense now. So for Michigan, it would be more accurate to list it this way:

UMich 1340-1520

Their 75% is around the same as the other schools listed, it’s just their 25% is lower, due to on state applicants.

That is always the price that a public school has to pay. They will never be able to attract the same quality of students as a private school across the board. Nothing inherently wrong with the school, just that one has public mission. Michigan has been expanding its enrollment in a big way. This allows more Michigan residents an opportunity to climb the social ladder. No selective private school has experienced a similar increase in its enrollment.

I assume you men elite private schools. Most privates are not nearly as good as Michigan.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Data for Michigan:

2020-2021 Common Data Set (pre-Covid):
http://obp.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/pubdata/cds/cds_2020-2021_umaa.pdf

25th Percentile 1340; 660 Evidence Based Reading, 680 Math
75th Percentile 1520, 740 Evidence Based Reading, 780 Math

Thanks, this makes sense now. So for Michigan, it would be more accurate to list it this way:

UMich 1340-1520

Their 75% is around the same as the other schools listed, it’s just their 25% is lower, due to on state applicants.

That is always the price that a public school has to pay. They will never be able to attract the same quality of students as a private school across the board. Nothing inherently wrong with the school, just that one has public mission. Michigan has been expanding its enrollment in a big way. This allows more Michigan residents an opportunity to climb the social ladder. No selective private school has experienced a similar increase in its enrollment.

Where quality = children from high SES houeholds.

Yes, agreed, nothing inherently wrong in seeking to expand, rather than hoard, access to socioeconomic success.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Data for Michigan:

2020-2021 Common Data Set (pre-Covid):
http://obp.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/pubdata/cds/cds_2020-2021_umaa.pdf

25th Percentile 1340; 660 Evidence Based Reading, 680 Math
75th Percentile 1520, 740 Evidence Based Reading, 780 Math

Thanks, this makes sense now. So for Michigan, it would be more accurate to list it this way:

UMich 1340-1520

Their 75% is around the same as the other schools listed, it’s just their 25% is lower, due to on state applicants.

That is always the price that a public school has to pay. They will never be able to attract the same quality of students as a private school across the board. Nothing inherently wrong with the school, just that one has public mission. Michigan has been expanding its enrollment in a big way. This allows more Michigan residents an opportunity to climb the social ladder. No selective private school has experienced a similar increase in its enrollment.