Anonymous wrote:I am surprised by how few people have had OP's experience. I certainly have. I also think that it's worse I you don't fit into certain boxes. Like if you are 45 with 2 kids and you're a SAHM with a high earning spouse who does barre classes twice a week and is in good shape and can afford expensive, brand-conscious clothes, you won't feel invisible.

But if you are 45 and single and working a mid-level corporate job, you are going to feel invisible. And that's with or without kids, actually -- no one really cares either way. You don't fit into a box that people want to celebrate, even if you make a good salary and are an interesting person. I do think people tend to look right past someone like this.

It's not just men, either. It's everyone under the age of 30. I think we remind them of their mothers so they avoid us. Men this age remind them of their fathers but they don't ignore them. It's interesting.

It's not the worst thing in the world (I'm not going to bars trying to get attention anymore), but it can be frustrating when you are trying to get basic customer service. I also had the experience of the place next door being bought by a pair of 20 somethings and being surprised at how dismissive and condescending they were towards me, and then realizing they see me as some sad, old woman because I'm in my 40s and unmarried. It was kind of shocking to realize as I don't see myself that way at all.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What does treated "worse" mean specifically? I am 54 and I have no idea what you're talking about.

She’s describing the process of becoming a “Karen”, a once young and attractive woman who is losing her beauty privileges. Karen’s are the ones who try to get the same accommodations with anger after losing all social benefits that naturally accrue to the beautiful and young.

Like being greeted vs seeking out help. Being told no for stuff you know can be done because they’ve done it before for you a few years ago or for your pretty coworker. Being considered for promotions which after 40 ish if you haven’t moved up you better settle into being a “lifer”. Stuff like that.

Op swoop some bangs over those greys in the front

You sound jealous.

Anonymous wrote:I remember my first invisible moment clearly. I was 40 and made eye contact with a man in my age range on the street I smiled, but he looked right through me as if I wasn't even there. Then it happened again. And again. But I'll always remember the first time.

Now I'm almost 56, and I'm comfortable in my invisibility. It's shocking to me when a man (usually older, lol) seems to be checking me out. I literally don't know what to do in those moments anymore. All I am thinking is please stop. I feel too exposed.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Last year I was standing in Trader Joe’s ready to check out. I had a basket, not a cart. It was one that didn’t have a single line to check out. Two different cashiers signaled to other customers to step forward to check out, while I stood there in the middle of the store with my basket, waiting. I never felt so invisible. It is an awful feeling.

yes this feeling is terrible...on the positive side I've learned as I get older to speak up so I'm definitely saying I was next.

Sigh...and then people call you a Karen behind your back.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm 58. i am only invisible when I am by myself or with a group of women my age. When I'm with my young adult kids or spouse, no one ignores me. But when with my friends - absolutely unseen.

The worst is restaurants. We are big tippers (really!) but women have a reputation of not being big tippers. We get lousy service almost all the time. And we get worse table than when with our spouses, too.

Oh, and I still dye my hair, and I'm thin and fit. And I dress well and in very expensive clothes (think Lori Piana, not Gucci). Doesn't matter at all.

So true!!!

I was a waitress when I was a teen and I was very cognizant guilty of this. Middle aged women were the worst tippers. Now that I'm an invisible wealthy middle aged woman, who tips well, I'm embarrassed by this. I do explain this to my daughters, but they don't really 'get it'.. No one ever explained it to me and I would have changed my behavior if I had known.

The tipping is probably an negative feedback loop. Middle aged women recieve worse service and therefore tip worse, so they recieve worse service.

I think it's a stereotype that emerged from a time when middle aged women just legitimately didn't have very much money, or didn't have much control over their money.

I think about my mom, who was a SAHM in the 70s and 80s. She had money but it wasn't "hers" and she was particularly reluctant to spend money on herself. Plus there's this whole dynamic with middle aged women and food and self-denial. So this translated to her being the kind of restaurant patron who would order an appetizer or a side salad with a Diet Coke as a meal, and tip 10%. It was not done out of a desire to stiff the server, but out of a belief that she didn't deserve more than that, that having more would be shameful, and also that any money she spends should really be going to her husband or kids.

Women like that don't really exist anymore. There are still SAHMs, but there is a greater sense that what SAHMs do is economically valuable and therefore I think they feel more comfortable spending money on themselves than they did a couple generations ago. And most women work in some capacity at this point -- even most SAHMs do it only temporarily, and work before and after. It's not like the 50s when the class of women most likely to go to restaurants (UMC white women) tended to be people who had never held regular jobs, relied on fathers or husbands for "spending money" and were not even legally allowed to have their own savings or checking accounts.

So the stereotype that middle aged women are bad tippers comes straight out of misogyny, just like a lot of negative stereotypes about marginalized people.

I literally never thought about it like this and it totally makes sense. I think you make a good point.

Agreed. Plus, the ubiquitous "mom" haircut did very few women any favors.

But all of the responses around how to avoid dismissive/borderline hostile treatment are just as rooted in misogyny as this take: color your hair! Stay fit and thin! Wear makeup! Dress nicely!

What do men have to do to be treated with respect? Show up.

You get back what you put out. Wanted to be treated kindly? Don't be a dick.

This is just not universally true. I am a PP who gained weight (back to back pregnancies) and still have a good amount of weight to lose. I have ALWAYS been very polite and nice to service workers and people in general - it is just who I am. I am treated SO POORLY compared to when I was at my normal weight and size of 4/6. I always thought people were nice because I was nice. Now I realize it's because I was attractive. It's depressing AF.

+1000

I have gained close to 100 pounds over the last 10 years or so because of a medication. Before that, I was very thin, and in my early 20s I modeled. I had no idea how well treated I was -- I took it for granted -- before I gained all of the weight. Now I realize how well I was treated back then, and know it was because I was so attractive. And it was both men and women. Now I get treated super poorly. I'm still behaving the exact same way and doing the same things and going to the same places.

I've posted about this before but I remember when I was a teenager my mom and I were at a bowling alley (of all places, I think it's the only time I've ever been, lol). There were three children there -- a brother and sister at one end of the place with a group, and a little girl of about the same age with a group at the other end of the place. The siblings were not attractive, the little girl was gorgeous. They were all mid ES age. They were all poorly behaved and running around like crazy. The siblings weren't as bad as the little girl. People got very irritated, even angry, with the behavior of the siblings. People smiled and chatted with the little girl and thought she was adorable. They literally adored her for the same behavior that caused them to dislike the other kids. My mother pointed it out. It was stark. I've never forgotten it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

People look right through me or seem annoyed when they have to deal with me, even when I'm being pleasant and polite.

I'm a frumpy overweight 40's mom, and I don't relate to this at all. I find the vast majority of people are kind and respond nicely if I speak to them nicely. People of all ages, women and men, have gone out of their way to help me out in various situations, and I also help people out when I am in a position to. On the rare occasion that someone is sullen to me or looks through me, it is jarring because it is so unusual.

My first thought when reading this is that you are probably just prettier than you think you are.

I read it that she is friendly and smiles to others. "Being polite" isn't the same as being friendly.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm 58. i am only invisible when I am by myself or with a group of women my age. When I'm with my young adult kids or spouse, no one ignores me. But when with my friends - absolutely unseen.

The worst is restaurants. We are big tippers (really!) but women have a reputation of not being big tippers. We get lousy service almost all the time. And we get worse table than when with our spouses, too.

Oh, and I still dye my hair, and I'm thin and fit. And I dress well and in very expensive clothes (think Lori Piana, not Gucci). Doesn't matter at all.

So true!!!

I was a waitress when I was a teen and I was very cognizant guilty of this. Middle aged women were the worst tippers. Now that I'm an invisible wealthy middle aged woman, who tips well, I'm embarrassed by this. I do explain this to my daughters, but they don't really 'get it'.. No one ever explained it to me and I would have changed my behavior if I had known.

The tipping is probably an negative feedback loop. Middle aged women recieve worse service and therefore tip worse, so they recieve worse service.

I think it's a stereotype that emerged from a time when middle aged women just legitimately didn't have very much money, or didn't have much control over their money.

I think about my mom, who was a SAHM in the 70s and 80s. She had money but it wasn't "hers" and she was particularly reluctant to spend money on herself. Plus there's this whole dynamic with middle aged women and food and self-denial. So this translated to her being the kind of restaurant patron who would order an appetizer or a side salad with a Diet Coke as a meal, and tip 10%. It was not done out of a desire to stiff the server, but out of a belief that she didn't deserve more than that, that having more would be shameful, and also that any money she spends should really be going to her husband or kids.

Women like that don't really exist anymore. There are still SAHMs, but there is a greater sense that what SAHMs do is economically valuable and therefore I think they feel more comfortable spending money on themselves than they did a couple generations ago. And most women work in some capacity at this point -- even most SAHMs do it only temporarily, and work before and after. It's not like the 50s when the class of women most likely to go to restaurants (UMC white women) tended to be people who had never held regular jobs, relied on fathers or husbands for "spending money" and were not even legally allowed to have their own savings or checking accounts.

So the stereotype that middle aged women are bad tippers comes straight out of misogyny, just like a lot of negative stereotypes about marginalized people.

I literally never thought about it like this and it totally makes sense. I think you make a good point.

Agreed. Plus, the ubiquitous "mom" haircut did very few women any favors.

But all of the responses around how to avoid dismissive/borderline hostile treatment are just as rooted in misogyny as this take: color your hair! Stay fit and thin! Wear makeup! Dress nicely!

What do men have to do to be treated with respect? Show up.

You get back what you put out. Wanted to be treated kindly? Don't be a dick.

This is just not universally true. I am a PP who gained weight (back to back pregnancies) and still have a good amount of weight to lose. I have ALWAYS been very polite and nice to service workers and people in general - it is just who I am. I am treated SO POORLY compared to when I was at my normal weight and size of 4/6. I always thought people were nice because I was nice. Now I realize it's because I was attractive. It's depressing AF.

It's the fat toll. If you are non white the toll is more.

But again...pretty sure men don't pay a "fat toll" (or a slovenly toll, or an old toll, or a grumpy toll). They don't have to DO or NOT DO anything to be treated respectfully and/or to receive good service.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Last year I was standing in Trader Joe’s ready to check out. I had a basket, not a cart. It was one that didn’t have a single line to check out. Two different cashiers signaled to other customers to step forward to check out, while I stood there in the middle of the store with my basket, waiting. I never felt so invisible. It is an awful feeling.

yes this feeling is terrible...on the positive side I've learned as I get older to speak up so I'm definitely saying I was next.

Sigh...and then people call you a Karen behind your back.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm 58. i am only invisible when I am by myself or with a group of women my age. When I'm with my young adult kids or spouse, no one ignores me. But when with my friends - absolutely unseen.

The worst is restaurants. We are big tippers (really!) but women have a reputation of not being big tippers. We get lousy service almost all the time. And we get worse table than when with our spouses, too.

Oh, and I still dye my hair, and I'm thin and fit. And I dress well and in very expensive clothes (think Lori Piana, not Gucci). Doesn't matter at all.

Oh, well, then by all means you should be getting more attention.

Lol.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm 58. i am only invisible when I am by myself or with a group of women my age. When I'm with my young adult kids or spouse, no one ignores me. But when with my friends - absolutely unseen.

The worst is restaurants. We are big tippers (really!) but women have a reputation of not being big tippers. We get lousy service almost all the time. And we get worse table than when with our spouses, too.

Oh, and I still dye my hair, and I'm thin and fit. And I dress well and in very expensive clothes (think Lori Piana, not Gucci). Doesn't matter at all.

So true!!!

I was a waitress when I was a teen and I was very cognizant guilty of this. Middle aged women were the worst tippers. Now that I'm an invisible wealthy middle aged woman, who tips well, I'm embarrassed by this. I do explain this to my daughters, but they don't really 'get it'.. No one ever explained it to me and I would have changed my behavior if I had known.

The tipping is probably an negative feedback loop. Middle aged women recieve worse service and therefore tip worse, so they recieve worse service.

I think it's a stereotype that emerged from a time when middle aged women just legitimately didn't have very much money, or didn't have much control over their money.

I think about my mom, who was a SAHM in the 70s and 80s. She had money but it wasn't "hers" and she was particularly reluctant to spend money on herself. Plus there's this whole dynamic with middle aged women and food and self-denial. So this translated to her being the kind of restaurant patron who would order an appetizer or a side salad with a Diet Coke as a meal, and tip 10%. It was not done out of a desire to stiff the server, but out of a belief that she didn't deserve more than that, that having more would be shameful, and also that any money she spends should really be going to her husband or kids.

Women like that don't really exist anymore. There are still SAHMs, but there is a greater sense that what SAHMs do is economically valuable and therefore I think they feel more comfortable spending money on themselves than they did a couple generations ago. And most women work in some capacity at this point -- even most SAHMs do it only temporarily, and work before and after. It's not like the 50s when the class of women most likely to go to restaurants (UMC white women) tended to be people who had never held regular jobs, relied on fathers or husbands for "spending money" and were not even legally allowed to have their own savings or checking accounts.

So the stereotype that middle aged women are bad tippers comes straight out of misogyny, just like a lot of negative stereotypes about marginalized people.

I literally never thought about it like this and it totally makes sense. I think you make a good point.

Agreed. Plus, the ubiquitous "mom" haircut did very few women any favors.

But all of the responses around how to avoid dismissive/borderline hostile treatment are just as rooted in misogyny as this take: color your hair! Stay fit and thin! Wear makeup! Dress nicely!

What do men have to do to be treated with respect? Show up.

You get back what you put out. Wanted to be treated kindly? Don't be a dick.

This is just not universally true. I am a PP who gained weight (back to back pregnancies) and still have a good amount of weight to lose. I have ALWAYS been very polite and nice to service workers and people in general - it is just who I am. I am treated SO POORLY compared to when I was at my normal weight and size of 4/6. I always thought people were nice because I was nice. Now I realize it's because I was attractive. It's depressing AF.