Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:it can go either way. My introverted eldest was very driven and had tons of leadership positions in his passion fields - he also had his own business and teachers loved him because he was so smart. His resume going to college was near perfect. My next one getting ready to apply next year is an extrovert but just likes to hang with friends and chill. Dare I say a touch lazy? So, it depends.

+1

Enough with the "WAAAAHHHH I'm an introvert nonsense"

Okay, just ignore the tons of documentation about how society is biased against introverts.

I think part of this is a misunderstanding of what some of us mean. If this is the scale with the vertical line in the middle being the dividing point. I’m not talking about the people at the “x”, I’m talking about the people at the “z”. There’s a difference.

More Introverted<___z___________x_|_______________>More extroverted

I'm the one who wrote about my introverted son being highly accomplished. I understand what you are feeling about a bias; extroverts tend to be more likable because they make us feel more comfortable and valued interpersonally. They are more likely to "connect" with others and there is a natural tendency for people to want to be around people who make THEM feel good - extroverts have the edge on this. Charisma, etc. But the SMARTEST people I know are mostly introverts. I hire introverts in thinking-central jobs and extroverts in people-central jobs. So there is room for everyone even if extroverts seem like life is easier for them (and maybe it is, but there is a trade off).

Yes, that likability aspect is definitely something else I consider a bias as well. Although I wasn’t going to delve in the psychology part.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:it can go either way. My introverted eldest was very driven and had tons of leadership positions in his passion fields - he also had his own business and teachers loved him because he was so smart. His resume going to college was near perfect. My next one getting ready to apply next year is an extrovert but just likes to hang with friends and chill. Dare I say a touch lazy? So, it depends.

+1

Enough with the "WAAAAHHHH I'm an introvert nonsense"

There's no WAAAAAHHHH here, but I do think it's important to understand that there is an entire sector of apparently well-socialized adults out there (myself included) that finds spending time in the company of others to be *work.* It's not that that work can't be pleasurable or meaningful or necessary or important - but it is *work* for some of us. So it takes effort and energy. It's like climbing a hill in the company of others who are more physically strong than you are. You know you have to keep up, and you want to, but you're going to feel the exhaustion more than they are when you all reach the top of that hill.

Is this bad or wrong or WAAAAAHHHH? No, it's just who I am. I think the only thing I wish were different is that people didn't think it was weird when I didn't feel the need to go out all the time when I was younger. I never actually wanted social time attached to the end of my day and didn't consider meeting new people to be a form of entertainment. Others do. I had to suck up a certain amount of it to make and keep friends. Now I'm grateful to be busy enough with work and DCs to have the excuse!

Really good analogy. And it’s exactly what I was trying to explain previously about how stuff like school, sports, band, clubs, etc; is more work because of the social aspect. Whereas for others they might mainly like these things because of the social aspect. I distinctly remember the kids in school that would love group projects, mention stuff like how the only thing that makes school fun for them is the socializing part, etc… I had a small group of friends I enjoyed seeing but it’s not like they were in every class (or often times, any classes) I did better on the days we’d just have lectures and the days we did tests. School would have been much easier for me if teachers didn’t focus so much on doing things that made the extroverts happy like “work together on this worksheet and talk quietly, do this group project and presentation” etc.

in a public school you’ll have 5-7 class periods each day sometimes having to interact with more than 100 different other kids. That in and of itself is work for an introvert.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I imagine the required interviews at most of the top 10s, and some 20s would be tough on the shy and introverted. Luckily, they are said not to matter much.

Actually, not so much. One-on-one is comfortable for many introverts. My introverts' interviews went well (although there's common agreement that they count for very little anyway.)

Interviews are not intimidating to our introverts. What they find painful are the much larger social events where chit-chat and small talk with groups of people is the norm.

Identical twin is extroverted. Me, not so much. We were raised by a single mother with health problems. My twin has a huge sense of confidence and is absolutely fearless, but it is easy to see why. Phi Beta Kappa in math, NCAA D1 All American several times. Phd in econ in four years. Put an incredible emphasis on winning and he had the talent to do it. I was nearly as good, and while winning was nice, the intensity of competition was enjoyable. I was born smaller and had health issues, and spent a lot of time catching up.,I do well in career, etc., but there's little question my extroverted brother has done better. He attracts attention, and articles in Barron's and the WSJ attest to it. I did as well as he did in grad school, although not with the same effort. I will say I am happy with my station in life and given my poverty background am overjoyed with career and family. The world tends to value extroverts, but introverts with a solid sense of self can do really well. College admissions is a good place to start in obtaining that sound sense of self.

Anonymous wrote:I imagine the required interviews at most of the top 10s, and some 20s would be tough on the shy and introverted. Luckily, they are said not to matter much.

Actually, not so much. One-on-one is comfortable for many introverts. My introverts' interviews went well (although there's common agreement that they count for very little anyway.)

Interviews are not intimidating to our introverts. What they find painful are the much larger social events where chit-chat and small talk with groups of people is the norm.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:it can go either way. My introverted eldest was very driven and had tons of leadership positions in his passion fields - he also had his own business and teachers loved him because he was so smart. His resume going to college was near perfect. My next one getting ready to apply next year is an extrovert but just likes to hang with friends and chill. Dare I say a touch lazy? So, it depends.

+1

Enough with the "WAAAAHHHH I'm an introvert nonsense"

Okay, just ignore the tons of documentation about how society is biased against introverts.

Society is only biased in favor of extroverts when it is a question of deciding who should be a leader for the simple reason that introverts are bad at it.

Society has no bias against introverts in follower positions. Introverts can have perfectly successful and satisfying lives getting the work done under the direction of extroverts.

We’re having this discussion in a forum about college admissions being biased. Not the jobs and careers forum.

I responded directly to a comment that talked about "society". And in any event, it is still relevant because elite colleges seek to select future leaders, and therefore they have a bias against introverts who are best suited to being followers and should therefore attend other colleges.

I haven't followed most of this thread, but I know plenty of introverts that are leaders. Usually, the captain of the robotics team or other STEM or academic clubs are introverts.

lol this is made-up nonsense that nerds are forced to do just so they can pretend they have some "leadership" experience. We all know (and AOs know) that president of the chess club or captain of the robotics team is a total joke.

No, AOs don’t seem to realize that the president of debate got the most votes because he said he’d buy everyone beer. Or the class president’s mother did all of the work. “Leadership”. Oooo ahhh. Such a joke.

You do realize that debate has an entire, formal competition circuit. Captain of debate is worth something if your team actually competes in these competitions and clearly means more if they win these competitions.

So…there is no ability to win these competitions by buying everyone beer.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:it can go either way. My introverted eldest was very driven and had tons of leadership positions in his passion fields - he also had his own business and teachers loved him because he was so smart. His resume going to college was near perfect. My next one getting ready to apply next year is an extrovert but just likes to hang with friends and chill. Dare I say a touch lazy? So, it depends.

+1

Enough with the "WAAAAHHHH I'm an introvert nonsense"

Okay, just ignore the tons of documentation about how society is biased against introverts.

Society is only biased in favor of extroverts when it is a question of deciding who should be a leader for the simple reason that introverts are bad at it.

Society has no bias against introverts in follower positions. Introverts can have perfectly successful and satisfying lives getting the work done under the direction of extroverts.

We’re having this discussion in a forum about college admissions being biased. Not the jobs and careers forum.

I responded directly to a comment that talked about "society". And in any event, it is still relevant because elite colleges seek to select future leaders, and therefore they have a bias against introverts who are best suited to being followers and should therefore attend other colleges.

I haven't followed most of this thread, but I know plenty of introverts that are leaders. Usually, the captain of the robotics team or other STEM or academic clubs are introverts.

lol this is made-up nonsense that nerds are forced to do just so they can pretend they have some "leadership" experience. We all know (and AOs know) that president of the chess club or captain of the robotics team is a total joke.

No, AOs don’t seem to realize that the president of debate got the most votes because he said he’d buy everyone beer. Or the class president’s mother did all of the work. “Leadership”. Oooo ahhh. Such a joke.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:it can go either way. My introverted eldest was very driven and had tons of leadership positions in his passion fields - he also had his own business and teachers loved him because he was so smart. His resume going to college was near perfect. My next one getting ready to apply next year is an extrovert but just likes to hang with friends and chill. Dare I say a touch lazy? So, it depends.

+1

Enough with the "WAAAAHHHH I'm an introvert nonsense"

Okay, just ignore the tons of documentation about how society is biased against introverts.

I think part of this is a misunderstanding of what some of us mean. If this is the scale with the vertical line in the middle being the dividing point. I’m not talking about the people at the “x”, I’m talking about the people at the “z”. There’s a difference.

More Introverted<___z___________x_|_______________>More extroverted

I'm the one who wrote about my introverted son being highly accomplished. I understand what you are feeling about a bias; extroverts tend to be more likable because they make us feel more comfortable and valued interpersonally. They are more likely to "connect" with others and there is a natural tendency for people to want to be around people who make THEM feel good - extroverts have the edge on this. Charisma, etc. But the SMARTEST people I know are mostly introverts. I hire introverts in thinking-central jobs and extroverts in people-central jobs. So there is room for everyone even if extroverts seem like life is easier for them (and maybe it is, but there is a trade off).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:it can go either way. My introverted eldest was very driven and had tons of leadership positions in his passion fields - he also had his own business and teachers loved him because he was so smart. His resume going to college was near perfect. My next one getting ready to apply next year is an extrovert but just likes to hang with friends and chill. Dare I say a touch lazy? So, it depends.

+1

Enough with the "WAAAAHHHH I'm an introvert nonsense"

Okay, just ignore the tons of documentation about how society is biased against introverts.

Society is only biased in favor of extroverts when it is a question of deciding who should be a leader for the simple reason that introverts are bad at it.

Society has no bias against introverts in follower positions. Introverts can have perfectly successful and satisfying lives getting the work done under the direction of extroverts.

We’re having this discussion in a forum about college admissions being biased. Not the jobs and careers forum.

I responded directly to a comment that talked about "society". And in any event, it is still relevant because elite colleges seek to select future leaders, and therefore they have a bias against introverts who are best suited to being followers and should therefore attend other colleges.

I haven't followed most of this thread, but I know plenty of introverts that are leaders. Usually, the captain of the robotics team or other STEM or academic clubs are introverts.

lol this is made-up nonsense that nerds are forced to do just so they can pretend they have some "leadership" experience. We all know (and AOs know) that president of the chess club or captain of the robotics team is a total joke.

Do you have any understanding of what a FRC robotics entails? At my kids school it’s 80 kids, with electronics, mechanical, CAD, programming etc subteams, all of which have to coordinate to build a robot that can do things like traverse parallel bars 2 Meters above ground and accurately shoot basketballs from no stationary/fixed positions. There is a marketing subteam, an outreach coordinator with who leads a team working with other schools to schedule pre-season scrimmages, share ideas and hold competitions for the younger kids (and outreach factors into overall scoring), and on and on. Kid run with outside mentors available, but not to do the work. There is travel all over the DMV and to nationals in Detroit. Money and sponsorships for not cheap robots and travel raised by the team. During robotics season, it’s more hours per week than kid who marched for a state winning band put in. Which is saying something.

And the Leadership team has to coordinate all this. CAD can’t design and print a part until the team decides what is needed. Etc.

You clearly know nothing about FIRST (ES/MS) and FRC/FTC ( HS).

Educate yourself, or at least watch some videos about what these HS FRC teams are doing (or at least watch some YouTube videos and follow some insta accounts) . Its very much a team sport.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:it can go either way. My introverted eldest was very driven and had tons of leadership positions in his passion fields - he also had his own business and teachers loved him because he was so smart. His resume going to college was near perfect. My next one getting ready to apply next year is an extrovert but just likes to hang with friends and chill. Dare I say a touch lazy? So, it depends.

+1

Enough with the "WAAAAHHHH I'm an introvert nonsense"

There's no WAAAAAHHHH here, but I do think it's important to understand that there is an entire sector of apparently well-socialized adults out there (myself included) that finds spending time in the company of others to be *work.* It's not that that work can't be pleasurable or meaningful or necessary or important - but it is *work* for some of us. So it takes effort and energy. It's like climbing a hill in the company of others who are more physically strong than you are. You know you have to keep up, and you want to, but you're going to feel the exhaustion more than they are when you all reach the top of that hill.

Is this bad or wrong or WAAAAAHHHH? No, it's just who I am. I think the only thing I wish were different is that people didn't think it was weird when I didn't feel the need to go out all the time when I was younger. I never actually wanted social time attached to the end of my day and didn't consider meeting new people to be a form of entertainment. Others do. I had to suck up a certain amount of it to make and keep friends. Now I'm grateful to be busy enough with work and DCs to have the excuse!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:it can go either way. My introverted eldest was very driven and had tons of leadership positions in his passion fields - he also had his own business and teachers loved him because he was so smart. His resume going to college was near perfect. My next one getting ready to apply next year is an extrovert but just likes to hang with friends and chill. Dare I say a touch lazy? So, it depends.

+1

Enough with the "WAAAAHHHH I'm an introvert nonsense"

Okay, just ignore the tons of documentation about how society is biased against introverts.

Society is only biased in favor of extroverts when it is a question of deciding who should be a leader for the simple reason that introverts are bad at it.

Society has no bias against introverts in follower positions. Introverts can have perfectly successful and satisfying lives getting the work done under the direction of extroverts.

We’re having this discussion in a forum about college admissions being biased. Not the jobs and careers forum.

I responded directly to a comment that talked about "society". And in any event, it is still relevant because elite colleges seek to select future leaders, and therefore they have a bias against introverts who are best suited to being followers and should therefore attend other colleges.

I find this very interesting. In my experience, introverts are far more likely than extroverts to be non-conformists; extroverts are more likely to be followers. It is the introvert member of a working group who is most likely to have a different perspective — and is more likely the type to say “no” to a person not used to being disagreed with. Any group needs both to function well. Any college too.

Agree with all of this. But most teenagers would struggle to articulate this point and the bias in "leadership" qualities and rec letters is very real. My academically stellar very shy kid has a teacher who marks down any presentation they do not based on content but on the performance aspect.

Has your kid gone to the teacher, acknowledged difficulty in this area, and asked for tips and resources for improvement? Because presentation skills can be important IRL in many jobs. And, poor presentation skills are often a factor of not practicing presentation skills or anxiety, both of which can be corrected. A teacher can say— use a louder voice, or, make eye contact, or you stumble over PowerPoint slides, do a run through at home with a parent audience. These have different fixes. But they are very fixable.

Anonymous wrote:I imagine the required interviews at most of the top 10s, and some 20s would be tough on the shy and introverted. Luckily, they are said not to matter much.

Not necessarily. My highly introverted kid applied to a number of SLACs and interviewed whenever possible. It did not make her anxious, but she was in the “selecting where I am most serious about applying” aspect, and was interested in learning and asking questions at interviews, as well as presenting herself in a good light. She’s very thoughtful and articulate. She did have social anxiety in middle school, which we treated with therapy and she worked hard to overcome it it. It paid off and I’m so proud of her ability to interact at an adult level in an assertive but polite (and not aggressive) manner with a range of adults.

She was accepted to WM, which is a great fit school for her major (IR) and personality. GPA was below the 25%, no hooks (but ACT at or above 75%)— and her WM interview ran over by a 1/2 hour because she and the interviewer started talking about one of her ECs and he War in the Ukraine and lost track of time. With the next kid waiting. Oops.

Point is, Introverts can do very well in 1:1 interviews. They tend to think before speaking and have interesting ideas, which can set them apart.

And if your introvert isn’t speaking up in class, talking to teachers or interviewing because of social anxiety— TREAT IT! That really will hold them back. It take time and effort (and money, sigh), but it’s not that hard to treat (unlike things like complex PTSD). having social anxiety as an introvert is not inevitable. And if it’s there, it can be treated. Start now!