Anonymous wrote:Let's do some numbers.

467 freshman at Amherst.
40% athletes.

214 men
85 of them are athletes (ish)
129 non athletes.

That's a small number. That's a much smaller number than non-athlete males at many high schools.

Then the thorny part that's hard to parse out here, but what does that 129 cohort look like? Are 20 of them in the black box theater all day? Are 40 of them? Are 20 of them at ROTC at UMass Amherst? (some are) Are 5 of them over 25 years old? Are 5 of them living at home? Are 5 of them international who don't mix with kids not from their country?

I could slice this down a lot before I ever get to trans kids.

But it really doesn't work this way in real life because a) LAC populations tend to be traditionally aged, residential college students living on campus or very close to campus, b) athletics just aren't as big a deal and so there's a lot of social overlap between athletes and everyone else at LAC, and c) no group--LGTBQ, international students, theater kids etc--are typically large enough to comprise their own social group--so they mix more, and d) the majors and the years mix more at LACs because there is less specialization.

There's often also a really narrow range of intellectual ability which seems to produce mixing across social groups.

I went to a LAC for undergrad (and a large private U for PhD) and I've been a prof at two different LACs and at a public U. I don't think there's any school--save for a women's college-- where a straight typical boy isn't going to find plenty of other people to socialize with. I don't recognize the stereotypes at all from the PP's descriptions.

Let's do some numbers.

467 freshman at Amherst.
40% athletes.

214 men
85 of them are athletes (ish)
129 non athletes.

That's a small number. That's a much smaller number than non-athlete males at many high schools.

Then the thorny part that's hard to parse out here, but what does that 129 cohort look like? Are 20 of them in the black box theater all day? Are 40 of them? Are 20 of them at ROTC at UMass Amherst? (some are) Are 5 of them over 25 years old? Are 5 of them living at home? Are 5 of them international who don't mix with kids not from their country?

I could slice this down a lot before I ever get to trans kids.

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Anonymous wrote:Funny thread. People keep mentioning schools with “only” 20% athletes (usually even these schools are at least 25%).

The answer is simple, and these are two great schools:

Reed College
St. John’s College

I think this is missing the mark. This is a boy who wants to hang [b]out with other normal boys. The problem is at many LACs, almost all the normal boys are on sports teams which leaves him to fend for himself among the overwhelmingly abnormal male NARPs. The answer is NOT to attend Reed College which consists entirely of abnormal NARPs.

If it is a SLAC, these are the schools. Oh, yes, Bennington also. (Hampshire has some varsity sports but the percentage of athletes is tiny there).

There are many, many options of large schools with way under 10% varsity athletes; OP should look there.

okay, but just recognize you're coming from the perspective of the mom of a gay kid (I am too). but for my straight kid, an ivy means a lot of athletes and a lot of gay kids like ours. My gay kid wouldn't be happy if he didn't have enough kids like him, and my straight kid wouldn't either. There needs to be a minimum. I agree the issue isn't the gay kids, it's the very large chunk of athletes who really don't mix a lot.

It is very easy to avoid schools with 20-40% student athletes. That’s not missing the mark, but hitting it.

“Normal boys”. Who are you to say what a normal or abnormal boy is? Be better a person.

I know it sounds mean, but it’s just a reality. Put yourself in the shoes of a young man who doesn’t want to find himself entirely surrounded by lgbtq/social justice types with strange interests.

Strange interests? Ugh. Do you mean something other than football and making money? Do you think the arts are strange? Reading for fun? I have a gay/bi kid and he has many straight friends. You would be lucky to know him.

I do understand wanting a variety of student types around. People are different and having everyone the same is boring. If a student only wants to be surrounded by people just like them, that is too bad. It means they give up the opportunity to grow and learn.

Nah normal kids don't benefit from being around your strange weirdo kid.

I feel sorry for you. To be that mean, something must be very wrong in your life. Meanwhile, my gay kid is living his best life at an Ivy with great prospects for the future. With friends from all over the world with different interests and perspectives.

It’s really not about being against gay or trans people- it’s about a mainstream conventional heterosexual boy not wanting to be completely surrounded by other boys/thems who aren’t like him. Perhaps an analogy would be a white boy concerned about attending a HBCU.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Funny thread. People keep mentioning schools with “only” 20% athletes (usually even these schools are at least 25%).

The answer is simple, and these are two great schools:

Reed College
St. John’s College

I think this is missing the mark. This is a boy who wants to hang [b]out with other normal boys. The problem is at many LACs, almost all the normal boys are on sports teams which leaves him to fend for himself among the overwhelmingly abnormal male NARPs. The answer is NOT to attend Reed College which consists entirely of abnormal NARPs.

If it is a SLAC, these are the schools. Oh, yes, Bennington also. (Hampshire has some varsity sports but the percentage of athletes is tiny there).

There are many, many options of large schools with way under 10% varsity athletes; OP should look there.

It is very easy to avoid schools with 20-40% student athletes. That’s not missing the mark, but hitting it.

“Normal boys”. Who are you to say what a normal or abnormal boy is? Be better a person.

I know it sounds mean, but it’s just a reality. Put yourself in the shoes of a young man who doesn’t want to find himself entirely surrounded by lgbtq/social justice types with strange interests.

This is not the reality though. It's a cartoon. OP--just visit LACs and find out.

Yet there is truth to it because the kids write about it in the school paper and talk about it and my own kid tells me about it and he's not crazy or intolerant or evil. To put it simply, LACs have an elevated proportion of varsity athletes versus other schools (especially large universities) but also have an elevated proportion of quirky intellectual/creative/activist/future PhD types because they are a natural habitat for such students. Those are two subgroups that don't necessarily tend to have a lot of natural social overlap in real life. This is compounded by the explosive growth in recent years of diverse gender identities.

OK, but do you think that intellectuals, creative people, activists, and scholars are weird? I don’t think so. And if your son think so, I’m surprised that he’s happy at any university.

I would say nowadays, they usually are pretty weird. Let me give you an example. He says literally every kid on campus marching for Palestinian liberation is a non-athlete.

Anonymous wrote:I could have written this post. I was just discussing this issue with my friends last week. My daughter is at a SLAC, and I took my son (a senior) to tour the school and visit her. I noticed how many athletes she hung out with and asked her if she thought her brother would fit in, and she replied, "Oh, because he is a NARP?" This was the first time I had heard this term. Despite being a NARP herself, she is pretty athletic and has always hung out with a sporty crowd. Her roommates are the same and are dating athletes. My concern is that it might be easier for girls to be NARPs than boys. My son enjoys watching sports but doesn't hang out with jocks. Like the OP’s son he is a “regular straight guy who likes movies and music and Ramen and video games. Super funny with a strong friend group but isn't an extrovert.” I’m worried his pool of like-minded friends at a SLAC might be limited. Although I still love the school and initially thought it would be a great fit for him, now I’m not so sure. (And yes, I know that "NARP" is a somewhat silly and possibly insulting term, but it seems to be a real expression used by students, at least at this school.)

I also have a daughter who is a senior and she is looking at SLACs for next year. I'm glad to hear that it's easier for girls to be NARPs because I have the same thoughts but for my daughter.

Really going to get flamed for this ( ) but I do worry about dating pool for my daughter. I hope she has some NARPs as part of the dating pool. It would suck for her if the only choices are athletes.

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Anonymous wrote:Funny thread. People keep mentioning schools with “only” 20% athletes (usually even these schools are at least 25%).

The answer is simple, and these are two great schools:

Reed College
St. John’s College

I think this is missing the mark. This is a boy who wants to hang [b]out with other normal boys. The problem is at many LACs, almost all the normal boys are on sports teams which leaves him to fend for himself among the overwhelmingly abnormal male NARPs. The answer is NOT to attend Reed College which consists entirely of abnormal NARPs.

If it is a SLAC, these are the schools. Oh, yes, Bennington also. (Hampshire has some varsity sports but the percentage of athletes is tiny there).

There are many, many options of large schools with way under 10% varsity athletes; OP should look there.

It is very easy to avoid schools with 20-40% student athletes. That’s not missing the mark, but hitting it.

“Normal boys”. Who are you to say what a normal or abnormal boy is? Be better a person.

I know it sounds mean, but it’s just a reality. Put yourself in the shoes of a young man who doesn’t want to find himself entirely surrounded by lgbtq/social justice types with strange interests.

Strange interests? Ugh. Do you mean something other than football and making money? Do you think the arts are strange? Reading for fun? I have a gay/bi kid and he has many straight friends. You would be lucky to know him.

I do understand wanting a variety of student types around. People are different and having everyone the same is boring. If a student only wants to be surrounded by people just like them, that is too bad. It means they give up the opportunity to grow and learn.

Gay kids w more mainstream interests can be both athlete or NARPs days. There are kids far far to the left of the mainstream gay kids and adcoms are bending over backward for this group.

And you have admissions experience from where, exactly?

Baruch and Barnard.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Funny thread. People keep mentioning schools with “only” 20% athletes (usually even these schools are at least 25%).

The answer is simple, and these are two great schools:

Reed College
St. John’s College

I think this is missing the mark. This is a boy who wants to hang [b]out with other normal boys. The problem is at many LACs, almost all the normal boys are on sports teams which leaves him to fend for himself among the overwhelmingly abnormal male NARPs. The answer is NOT to attend Reed College which consists entirely of abnormal NARPs.

If it is a SLAC, these are the schools. Oh, yes, Bennington also. (Hampshire has some varsity sports but the percentage of athletes is tiny there).

There are many, many options of large schools with way under 10% varsity athletes; OP should look there.

It is very easy to avoid schools with 20-40% student athletes. That’s not missing the mark, but hitting it.

“Normal boys”. Who are you to say what a normal or abnormal boy is? Be better a person.

I know it sounds mean, but it’s just a reality. Put yourself in the shoes of a young man who doesn’t want to find himself entirely surrounded by lgbtq/social justice types with strange interests.

Strange interests? Ugh. Do you mean something other than football and making money? Do you think the arts are strange? Reading for fun? I have a gay/bi kid and he has many straight friends. You would be lucky to know him.

I do understand wanting a variety of student types around. People are different and having everyone the same is boring. If a student only wants to be surrounded by people just like them, that is too bad. It means they give up the opportunity to grow and learn.

Gay kids w more mainstream interests can be both athlete or NARPs days. There are kids far far to the left of the mainstream gay kids and adcoms are bending over backward for this group.

And you have admissions experience from where, exactly?

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Funny thread. People keep mentioning schools with “only” 20% athletes (usually even these schools are at least 25%).

The answer is simple, and these are two great schools:

Reed College
St. John’s College

I think this is missing the mark. This is a boy who wants to hang [b]out with other normal boys. The problem is at many LACs, almost all the normal boys are on sports teams which leaves him to fend for himself among the overwhelmingly abnormal male NARPs. The answer is NOT to attend Reed College which consists entirely of abnormal NARPs.

If it is a SLAC, these are the schools. Oh, yes, Bennington also. (Hampshire has some varsity sports but the percentage of athletes is tiny there).

There are many, many options of large schools with way under 10% varsity athletes; OP should look there.

It is very easy to avoid schools with 20-40% student athletes. That’s not missing the mark, but hitting it.

“Normal boys”. Who are you to say what a normal or abnormal boy is? Be better a person.

I know it sounds mean, but it’s just a reality. Put yourself in the shoes of a young man who doesn’t want to find himself entirely surrounded by lgbtq/social justice types with strange interests.

Strange interests? Ugh. Do you mean something other than football and making money? Do you think the arts are strange? Reading for fun? I have a gay/bi kid and he has many straight friends. You would be lucky to know him.

I do understand wanting a variety of student types around. People are different and having everyone the same is boring. If a student only wants to be surrounded by people just like them, that is too bad. It means they give up the opportunity to grow and learn.

Gay kids w more mainstream interests can be both athlete or NARPs days. There are kids far far to the left of the mainstream gay kids and adcoms are bending over backward for this group.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Funny thread. People keep mentioning schools with “only” 20% athletes (usually even these schools are at least 25%).

The answer is simple, and these are two great schools:

Reed College
St. John’s College

I think this is missing the mark. This is a boy who wants to hang [b]out with other normal boys. The problem is at many LACs, almost all the normal boys are on sports teams which leaves him to fend for himself among the overwhelmingly abnormal male NARPs. The answer is NOT to attend Reed College which consists entirely of abnormal NARPs.

If it is a SLAC, these are the schools. Oh, yes, Bennington also. (Hampshire has some varsity sports but the percentage of athletes is tiny there).

There are many, many options of large schools with way under 10% varsity athletes; OP should look there.

It is very easy to avoid schools with 20-40% student athletes. That’s not missing the mark, but hitting it.

“Normal boys”. Who are you to say what a normal or abnormal boy is? Be better a person.

I know it sounds mean, but it’s just a reality. Put yourself in the shoes of a young man who doesn’t want to find himself entirely surrounded by lgbtq/social justice types with strange interests.

Strange interests? Ugh. Do you mean something other than football and making money? Do you think the arts are strange? Reading for fun? I have a gay/bi kid and he has many straight friends. You would be lucky to know him.

I do understand wanting a variety of student types around. People are different and having everyone the same is boring. If a student only wants to be surrounded by people just like them, that is too bad. It means they give up the opportunity to grow and learn.

I could have written this post. I was just discussing this issue with my friends last week. My daughter is at a SLAC, and I took my son (a senior) to tour the school and visit her. I noticed how many athletes she hung out with and asked her if she thought her brother would fit in, and she replied, "Oh, because he is a NARP?" This was the first time I had heard this term. Despite being a NARP herself, she is pretty athletic and has always hung out with a sporty crowd. Her roommates are the same and are dating athletes. My concern is that it might be easier for girls to be NARPs than boys. My son enjoys watching sports but doesn't hang out with jocks. Like the OP’s son he is a “regular straight guy who likes movies and music and Ramen and video games. Super funny with a strong friend group but isn't an extrovert.” I’m worried his pool of like-minded friends at a SLAC might be limited. Although I still love the school and initially thought it would be a great fit for him, now I’m not so sure. (And yes, I know that "NARP" is a somewhat silly and possibly insulting term, but it seems to be a real expression used by students, at least at this school.)

this is probably too nuanced a conversation for a message board, but my son goes to public school in Brooklyn, progressive views, lots of gay and trans friends. Would roll his eyes at this "normal" talk.

BUT .. colleges that are small to begin with who enroll a ton of athletes (like 30% or more) AND a have a newfound commitment to diversity in gender identity are creating barbell classes that do not represent the population at all.

Part of it is admissions committees that are kinda old. They have their heads turned by the "oh! exciting! this is a trans student! involved in trans rights and trans theater and trans low powered local radio". Which, great, but do that 20 times and you end up with a lot of lax bros on one side and the trans rights crowd on the other and if you're a kid who is perfectly supportive of both crowds ... but also you have no real passion for either lacrosse or trans rights, then you might feel out of place.

pull out the specialty program kids, the black student union kids, the international kids .. you have to be a special college that can make that all work. walk into a college cafeteria at these schools and you see a black table, the Chinese kids, a soccer table, a trans group, etc.

I'm not sure any small college with lots of athletes has cracked this issue.

IMO, the issue is with athletics (at 30%), not the 7% Chinese or 6% trans, etc..

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Funny thread. People keep mentioning schools with “only” 20% athletes (usually even these schools are at least 25%).

The answer is simple, and these are two great schools:

Reed College
St. John’s College

I think this is missing the mark. This is a boy who wants to hang [b]out with other normal boys. The problem is at many LACs, almost all the normal boys are on sports teams which leaves him to fend for himself among the overwhelmingly abnormal male NARPs. The answer is NOT to attend Reed College which consists entirely of abnormal NARPs.

If it is a SLAC, these are the schools. Oh, yes, Bennington also. (Hampshire has some varsity sports but the percentage of athletes is tiny there).

There are many, many options of large schools with way under 10% varsity athletes; OP should look there.

It is very easy to avoid schools with 20-40% student athletes. That’s not missing the mark, but hitting it.

“Normal boys”. Who are you to say what a normal or abnormal boy is? Be better a person.

I know it sounds mean, but it’s just a reality. Put yourself in the shoes of a young man who doesn’t want to find himself entirely surrounded by lgbtq/social justice types with strange interests.

This is not the reality though. It's a cartoon. OP--just visit LACs and find out.

Yet there is truth to it because the kids write about it in the school paper and talk about it and my own kid tells me about it and he's not crazy or intolerant or evil. To put it simply, LACs have an elevated proportion of varsity athletes versus other schools (especially large universities) but also have an elevated proportion of quirky intellectual/creative/activist/future PhD types because they are a natural habitat for such students. Those are two subgroups that don't necessarily tend to have a lot of natural social overlap in real life. This is compounded by the explosive growth in recent years of diverse gender identities.

OK, but do you think that intellectuals, creative people, activists, and scholars are weird? I don’t think so. And if your son think so, I’m surprised that he’s happy at any university.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Colgate. Lots of athletes, but the whole school is pretty athletic, outgoing, and social. Haters drag it because it has too many normies who just want to have fun, work hard, and be financially successful… so it fits the bill. Outstanding Econ department, and really strong life sciences. We hire a ton from there, the kids are balanced and work their tails off.

Exactly the opposite of what OP is looking for.

I think she actually was asking for this in a polite way. Athletes are only 35% of the LAC student population. So if the other 65% (ie the NARP population) was exactly what her "regular straight guy" son wanted, there wouldn't be a problem. She obviously is concerned that the non-athletes are not also "regular straight guys" but her son won't be friends with the athletes because they are socially isolated.

She was politely saying her son is a normie, and she is concerned he will find himself in a difficult social context.

The problem is that the "other 65%" is not necessarily "regular people". At many LACs the non-athletes have their own tight cliques - URMs, rich kids, etc. Just "not being an athlete" won't get you into these other cliques.

Bucknell might be a good fit.

Saw it at Amherst - it’s real. I don’t think it is an intentional divide but the athletes spend an extraordinary amount of time with each other - makes sense after practice they eat together etc. They also travel for games, so are not at the school as much. You have a small school with a huge % of athletes - there is greater chance of a divide. Even if everyone wanted to commingle their schedules would make it hard to do so. That’s the reality.