Anonymous
08/30/2023 08:48
Subject: VERY concerned about my kid's obsession with Yale & Princeton
Hi OP,
Just caught up on the 7 pages of advice here. You know that, despite your kid's awesome academic achievement, this is a big long shot. But, does your kid know this? I'm guessing from WGPA, kid is at MCPS? There is a chance from our schools, but many of the kids getting in from our publics have some draw -- legacy, some major honor/award, etc. Mine had similar stats to yours -- same SAT, slightly lower UWGPA, higher WGPA, NMSF, 3 honor societies, awesome magnet rigor with fantastic ECs in multiple areas of arts w/national and state awards who got rejected by Yale SCEA. She went on to pick up some additional awards in Feb that I think helped her in RD apps, and she did very well there. All this to say that applying early for these highly selective T10-20 schools that give little/no early app bump can work against students because they have to have more together earlier.
What was it that she liked about these schools? Campus? If so, there have been a few good suggestions here, but I would 2nd the Vassar rec. Gorgeous campus (used for Ivy double for SLoCG on HBO) and faculty seems similar caliber w/ great alum network. Mine strongly considered it even though admitted to several Ivies/T10 in RD. Take her to visit now, and if she falls in love, that ED would be promising. BC might be another possibility (not quite as competitive as Vandy ED). As others have said, many of the women's colleges are beautiful. Also, Salve Regina is stunning. Good luck!
Just caught up on the 7 pages of advice here. You know that, despite your kid's awesome academic achievement, this is a big long shot. But, does your kid know this? I'm guessing from WGPA, kid is at MCPS? There is a chance from our schools, but many of the kids getting in from our publics have some draw -- legacy, some major honor/award, etc. Mine had similar stats to yours -- same SAT, slightly lower UWGPA, higher WGPA, NMSF, 3 honor societies, awesome magnet rigor with fantastic ECs in multiple areas of arts w/national and state awards who got rejected by Yale SCEA. She went on to pick up some additional awards in Feb that I think helped her in RD apps, and she did very well there. All this to say that applying early for these highly selective T10-20 schools that give little/no early app bump can work against students because they have to have more together earlier.
What was it that she liked about these schools? Campus? If so, there have been a few good suggestions here, but I would 2nd the Vassar rec. Gorgeous campus (used for Ivy double for SLoCG on HBO) and faculty seems similar caliber w/ great alum network. Mine strongly considered it even though admitted to several Ivies/T10 in RD. Take her to visit now, and if she falls in love, that ED would be promising. BC might be another possibility (not quite as competitive as Vandy ED). As others have said, many of the women's colleges are beautiful. Also, Salve Regina is stunning. Good luck!
Anonymous
08/30/2023 08:32
Subject: VERY concerned about my kid's obsession with Yale & Princeton
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The bad news is Y & P are nearly impossible to get into.
The good news is, you don’t need them to succeed in life. Plenty of other great schools.
Are the kids going to Yale and Princeton now really exceptional in any way other than the fact that they fill out the dance cards of some very left-wing admissions officers? They seem like decent kids but no brighter than kids at dozens of other schools.
Based on absolutely nothing but my own impressions, 30 percent of the kids at HYPS are pretty exceptional. The other 70 percent not so much. I don't think it's left wing admissions officers that are driving things. Just the usual institutional priorities - wealth, legacy, sports, international - big gap - first generation and URMs. And the URM tag is used very liberally.
The bolded - simply NO, not true at all.
I have spent the past 30+ years working for organizations that on this forum are considered prestigious - first at Goldman, then Blackstone, currently at a well-known hedge fund. I have been actively involved in recruitment over the years and have seen how things have evolved first hand.
I agree that ~30% at HYPSM are exceptional, but disagree that the rest are no brighter than kids at other schools. If you submit an application with a 3.5-3.8 GPA from a select 20-25 schools (Ivy+, top SLACs, etc), you will be considered seriously and are very likely to get an interview. If you submit an application with that GPA from Rutgers, Penn State, etc, you'll be canned. To be competitive with even a 3.5 kid from an Ivy, the kids outside the top 20-25 schools need to have 3.9-4.0 GPAs and exceptional work experience and extracurriculars, meaning you need to be in the top 5%.
The other thing is people talk about these schools' institutional priorities, implying somehow that the kids that get admitted under one of those banners are somehow less smart or competitive, almost making it seem that the Ivies admit a bunch of mediocre dumbasses these days just to have diversity. Believe that if it makes you feel comfortable.
The reality is different. We recruited ~20 kids for our firm this year, roughly 80% came from top 20-25 schools. Some of the standout applicants who got offers - a hispanic kid from Harvard and a black kid from Yale with tip top GPAs, work experience and extracurriculars. An athlete and a first gen.
The question wasn’t whether Yale and Princeton still open doors, but rather whether the students themselves really are exceptional any longer.
It seems to me these schools peaked in terms of their concentration of talent from the 70s to the early 00s. Before then was the preppy “Gentlemen’s C” era. Afterwards is the “Diversity Olympics” era. For about 35-40 years they may have consistently admitted the cream of the crop, but those days are over.
Yes, they are. But, that doesn't mean that there are more exceptional students not at these schools as well.
DCUM likes this strange contradiction -- "Ivies are overrated because all the smart kids go elsewhere" paired with "high stats are not enough to get into Ivies"
There is no need to denigrate the kids who get in (or the kids who didn't because they had similar high stats to a large portion of other candidates). They are for the most part exceptional, hooks or no. But, there are also exceptional kids at other schools -- there's just likely a wider range of educational performance at other schools. Can we just move on from this?
Anonymous
08/30/2023 08:24
Subject: VERY concerned about my kid's obsession with Yale & Princeton
Anonymous wrote:The secret is that most of the class was never truly exceptional. We have more information now.
Whatever helps you sleep at night.
Anonymous
08/30/2023 07:51
Subject: VERY concerned about my kid's obsession with Yale & Princeton
The secret is that most of the class was never truly exceptional. We have more information now.
Anonymous
08/30/2023 07:11
Subject: VERY concerned about my kid's obsession with Yale & Princeton
Anonymous wrote:1. I interview prospective students for the HYP I attended and I meet the ones accepted every year at a reception. They are far more accomplished and talented than my class was (myself included).
2. In the late 70s and 80s classes were filled with prep schools kids. Andover would send 20ish a year. Not all of them where that exceptional. Today, these schools find students who manage to accomplish a lot growing up in households where parents didn’t go to college/low income etc.
3. I have no idea how anyone could accurately assess what percent of these kids are exceptional but the number not going down
Not convinced but glad you still think highly of Princeton kids (Princeton alums seem to be most likely by far to refer to “HYP”).
Anonymous
08/30/2023 07:07
Subject: VERY concerned about my kid's obsession with Yale & Princeton
1. I interview prospective students for the HYP I attended and I meet the ones accepted every year at a reception. They are far more accomplished and talented than my class was (myself included).
2. In the late 70s and 80s classes were filled with prep schools kids. Andover would send 20ish a year. Not all of them where that exceptional. Today, these schools find students who manage to accomplish a lot growing up in households where parents didn’t go to college/low income etc.
3. I have no idea how anyone could accurately assess what percent of these kids are exceptional but the number not going down
2. In the late 70s and 80s classes were filled with prep schools kids. Andover would send 20ish a year. Not all of them where that exceptional. Today, these schools find students who manage to accomplish a lot growing up in households where parents didn’t go to college/low income etc.
3. I have no idea how anyone could accurately assess what percent of these kids are exceptional but the number not going down
Anonymous
08/30/2023 06:55
Subject: VERY concerned about my kid's obsession with Yale & Princeton
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The bad news is Y & P are nearly impossible to get into.
The good news is, you don’t need them to succeed in life. Plenty of other great schools.
Are the kids going to Yale and Princeton now really exceptional in any way other than the fact that they fill out the dance cards of some very left-wing admissions officers? They seem like decent kids but no brighter than kids at dozens of other schools.
Based on absolutely nothing but my own impressions, 30 percent of the kids at HYPS are pretty exceptional. The other 70 percent not so much. I don't think it's left wing admissions officers that are driving things. Just the usual institutional priorities - wealth, legacy, sports, international - big gap - first generation and URMs. And the URM tag is used very liberally.
The bolded - simply NO, not true at all.
I have spent the past 30+ years working for organizations that on this forum are considered prestigious - first at Goldman, then Blackstone, currently at a well-known hedge fund. I have been actively involved in recruitment over the years and have seen how things have evolved first hand.
I agree that ~30% at HYPSM are exceptional, but disagree that the rest are no brighter than kids at other schools. If you submit an application with a 3.5-3.8 GPA from a select 20-25 schools (Ivy+, top SLACs, etc), you will be considered seriously and are very likely to get an interview. If you submit an application with that GPA from Rutgers, Penn State, etc, you'll be canned. To be competitive with even a 3.5 kid from an Ivy, the kids outside the top 20-25 schools need to have 3.9-4.0 GPAs and exceptional work experience and extracurriculars, meaning you need to be in the top 5%.
The other thing is people talk about these schools' institutional priorities, implying somehow that the kids that get admitted under one of those banners are somehow less smart or competitive, almost making it seem that the Ivies admit a bunch of mediocre dumbasses these days just to have diversity. Believe that if it makes you feel comfortable.
The reality is different. We recruited ~20 kids for our firm this year, roughly 80% came from top 20-25 schools. Some of the standout applicants who got offers - a hispanic kid from Harvard and a black kid from Yale with tip top GPAs, work experience and extracurriculars. An athlete and a first gen.
The question wasn’t whether Yale and Princeton still open doors, but rather whether the students themselves really are exceptional any longer.
It seems to me these schools peaked in terms of their concentration of talent from the 70s to the early 00s. Before then was the preppy “Gentlemen’s C” era. Afterwards is the “Diversity Olympics” era. For about 35-40 years they may have consistently admitted the cream of the crop, but those days are over.
Anonymous
08/30/2023 06:39
Subject: VERY concerned about my kid's obsession with Yale & Princeton
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The bad news is Y & P are nearly impossible to get into.
The good news is, you don’t need them to succeed in life. Plenty of other great schools.
Are the kids going to Yale and Princeton now really exceptional in any way other than the fact that they fill out the dance cards of some very left-wing admissions officers? They seem like decent kids but no brighter than kids at dozens of other schools.
Based on absolutely nothing but my own impressions, 30 percent of the kids at HYPS are pretty exceptional. The other 70 percent not so much. I don't think it's left wing admissions officers that are driving things. Just the usual institutional priorities - wealth, legacy, sports, international - big gap - first generation and URMs. And the URM tag is used very liberally.
The bolded - simply NO, not true at all.
I have spent the past 30+ years working for organizations that on this forum are considered prestigious - first at Goldman, then Blackstone, currently at a well-known hedge fund. I have been actively involved in recruitment over the years and have seen how things have evolved first hand.
I agree that ~30% at HYPSM are exceptional, but disagree that the rest are no brighter than kids at other schools. If you submit an application with a 3.5-3.8 GPA from a select 20-25 schools (Ivy+, top SLACs, etc), you will be considered seriously and are very likely to get an interview. If you submit an application with that GPA from Rutgers, Penn State, etc, you'll be canned. To be competitive with even a 3.5 kid from an Ivy, the kids outside the top 20-25 schools need to have 3.9-4.0 GPAs and exceptional work experience and extracurriculars, meaning you need to be in the top 5%.
The other thing is people talk about these schools' institutional priorities, implying somehow that the kids that get admitted under one of those banners are somehow less smart or competitive, almost making it seem that the Ivies admit a bunch of mediocre dumbasses these days just to have diversity. Believe that if it makes you feel comfortable.
The reality is different. We recruited ~20 kids for our firm this year, roughly 80% came from top 20-25 schools. Some of the standout applicants who got offers - a hispanic kid from Harvard and a black kid from Yale with tip top GPAs, work experience and extracurriculars. An athlete and a first gen.
Anonymous
08/30/2023 05:46
Subject: VERY concerned about my kid's obsession with Yale & Princeton
Anonymous wrote:
Are the kids going to Yale and Princeton now really exceptional in any way other than the fact that they fill out the dance cards of some very left-wing admissions officers?
Anonymous wrote:
How do you know the politics of the admissions offices at these schools, and how are they relevant?
NP. I was on an admissions committee at one of these schools (not for undergrad). I also saw administrators impose their left-wing policies on the rest of the school. For example, one administrator boycotted Domino's pizza for school functions because she objected to the owner's pro-life politics. This same attitude affected admissions decisions.
For example, I read that membership in Future Farmers of American hurts admissions chances at snobby schools. There is the obvious anti-Asian discrimination too.
Anonymous
08/30/2023 00:43
Subject: VERY concerned about my kid's obsession with Yale & Princeton
*e and princeton
Anonymous
08/30/2023 00:43
Subject: VERY concerned about my kid's obsession with Yale & Princeton
Have her post her peofile at /r/applyongtocollege and collegeconfidential asking to chance her at Yal
Anonymous
08/29/2023 22:53
Subject: VERY concerned about my kid's obsession with Yale & Princeton
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The bad news is Y & P are nearly impossible to get into.
The good news is, you don’t need them to succeed in life. Plenty of other great schools.
Are the kids going to Yale and Princeton now really exceptional in any way other than the fact that they fill out the dance cards of some very left-wing admissions officers? They seem like decent kids but no brighter than kids at dozens of other schools.
Based on absolutely nothing but my own impressions, 30 percent of the kids at HYPS are pretty exceptional. The other 70 percent not so much. I don't think it's left wing admissions officers that are driving things. Just the usual institutional priorities - wealth, legacy, sports, international - big gap - first generation and URMs. And the URM tag is used very liberally.
Anonymous
08/29/2023 21:48
Subject: VERY concerned about my kid's obsession with Yale & Princeton
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The bad news is Y & P are nearly impossible to get into.
The good news is, you don’t need them to succeed in life. Plenty of other great schools.
Are the kids going to Yale and Princeton now really exceptional in any way other than the fact that they fill out the dance cards of some very left-wing admissions officers? They seem like decent kids but no brighter than kids at dozens of other schools.
How do you know the politics of the admissions offices at these schools, and how are they relevant?
Lol.
Anonymous
08/29/2023 21:14
Subject: VERY concerned about my kid's obsession with Yale & Princeton
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The bad news is Y & P are nearly impossible to get into.
The good news is, you don’t need them to succeed in life. Plenty of other great schools.
Are the kids going to Yale and Princeton now really exceptional in any way other than the fact that they fill out the dance cards of some very left-wing admissions officers? They seem like decent kids but no brighter than kids at dozens of other schools.
How do you know the politics of the admissions offices at these schools, and how are they relevant?
Anonymous
08/29/2023 21:01
Subject: VERY concerned about my kid's obsession with Yale & Princeton
Anonymous wrote:The bad news is Y & P are nearly impossible to get into.
The good news is, you don’t need them to succeed in life. Plenty of other great schools.
Are the kids going to Yale and Princeton now really exceptional in any way other than the fact that they fill out the dance cards of some very left-wing admissions officers? They seem like decent kids but no brighter than kids at dozens of other schools.