Anonymous
I’m trying to follow all of this but I don’t understand how we can be whores slutting around with all the muscle jerks but also alone because we prioritized our careers? And also to blame for sexless nice men?

When a portion of the population (white males) feel they begin to lose their status and automatic privilege to women, POC, they need to create an enemy. But it’s not just gender. The economic shifts in our society toward the condensation of wealth and lack of opportunity for wage growth, the rising costs if health care andeducation, all this has pushed automatic social and financial attainment further away for everyone but it’s men who perceive they have lost most ground (still not crying for them). Our careers and independence (abortion restrictions notwithstanding) are painful signs of loss of automatic privilege. Using social shame that veers into violence is an attempt at control. Note that op described unmarried women over 30 as both whores but also had to attack their having degrees. The idea of educated, sexually liberated (can’t be shamed) and financially secure women is threatening. Why else attack?

Misogyny and hate crimes against women (hate crimes in general) have increased worldwide while political gains that support women have been attacked, abortion rights chief among them.

Social media is corrosive—for both women and men- too long to get into here but it’s a distraction from real issues and a way to generate and sustain outrage. Ultimately red pill theology is even more cult like than what they hate as conventional social mores, but it’s a comforting illusion to some that men could still obtain some sort of “natural” hierarchy without having to oppress women (because they are oppressed!).

The [young] men I see tend to fall into two categories—those who view women as equals and those who don’t.

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Anonymous wrote:I’m trying to follow all of this but I don’t understand how we can be whores slutting around with all the muscle jerks but also alone because we prioritized our careers? And also to blame for sexless nice men?

All the “normal” guys know is that they aren’t having sex and the women they like aren’t into them. Back in “the good old days,” it wasn’t like this.

With those as your givens, you can spin whatever narrative you want as explanations. If it weren’t for feminism, women would have to think long term about whether and with whom they had sex. They couldn’t just spend their twenties being part of Chad Thundercock’s harem!

And/or maybe they’re chasing a degree in Advanced Women’s Studies or a career in divorce law so hard they aren’t paying proper attention to settling down with a nice boy and making a home for him and his children.

"If women couldn't support themselves financially, I could be a worthless POS and yet still snag a woman who has no choice!" That's basically their thought process.

Funny how men say women end up alone and sad. Many women are alone by choice, while grown-azz men are still whining about Chad and trying to figure out how to get a woman to talk to them. As if women are the problem.

I think the thought processes of red pill guys are wrong, but not in this way. I had a creative writing teacher tell us to remember that everyone is the protagonist in their own story. And that story mostly doesn’t cast them as a villain. So they’re not thinking about how they can act like a POS and still get women. Mostly they’re going to claim they are doing what society tells them to do & women don’t like them. Then they’ll look for someone to blame for this outcome.

You are probably right but what do they think they are doing that society agrees with? Not working or overworking? Don’t think so. Sleeping around? Don’t think so. Getting angry at every little thing? Don’t think so. Putting down women? Don’t think so. Becoming an addict? Don’t think so. Society is not talking about how these things are positives.

Anonymous wrote:I’ve been celibate by choice for 12 years now

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Anonymous wrote:My 19yo ds is into the red pill. I have let him run his mouth about it to see how far down the hole he has gone. Most of it is about politics/economic structure (matrix) but it has also given him significant motivation to work hard and take care of himself - almost like a guide for what it is to be a "high value man." I have not heard misogyny but I am his mother and he knows how I feel about Andrew Tate.

Now, if I were dating a man in his 40s or whatever who referred to anything re Red Pill or used the words OP said he did, I would be out of there immediately.

You believe you're being smart and cagey, letting him "run his mouth" so you can gauge how far his thinking goes. But you're actually being naive (a term I feel sure will make you furious, but...you are naive.) Why? "I have not heard misogyny but I am his mother and he knows...." etc. What you have "heard" means exactly nothing. You have no idea what he's reading online, what he's writing in posts, what is inside his head. Just because you haven't heard comments you think are clearly misogynist, that does not mean he isn't engaging with others you don't know, and isn't buying every idea they're selling. He's your little boy and knows not to spew red pill misogyny in front of mom; that does not mean he isn't absorbing and internalizing it. But you seem to think it's good enough that you haven't heard it and he knows how you feel about ONE commentator. If you don't actually dig into what he thinks and tell him in no uncertain terms he's wrong, you have abdicated your role as a mother of a young man who is going to end up just another red piller, treating women...the way red pill men do.

And you even find the silver lining! He's working hard and taking care of himself to become a "high value man." The fact you present that as a kind of positive is baffling. Men can, and do, work hard and take care of themselves without the inspiration of this particular way of thinking. You sound desperate to find some kind of "up side" to your son's descent into this way of thinking. Well, he'll be buff, at least.

DP. Lay off. There’s no one proven way to respond. You seem more interested in forcing a mother to condemn and write off her son, than in what it would take to actually educate him and persuade him. I personally believe that the less taboo you make this stuff, the better. If this PP totally polarizes the matter, do you think that will help?

Condemn and write off? No.

Speak up clearly and unequivocally, calling out this red pill insanity, being clear that she can love him but also will not tolerate certain things? Yes.

Strange that you don't see the difference.

Not tolerate what? Ideas and beliefs he has? She can make clear she disagrees but saying “I will not tolerate your beliefs!” is a really juvenile way to go about engaging with someone.

DP. Wut? You think she should tolerate misogyny?

No wonder this country is going down the sheeter.

This specific exchange is in response to a mom w a 19 year old DS and rather than shut him down, she walks a line so that she can have a window into what he is thinking and experiencing. She’s not “tolerating misogyny” nor is her DS making misogynistic statements. She’s insightful enough to know that if he does have misogynistic thoughts and beliefs, he would likely filter them in front of her. IMO, she’s being a thoughtful parent of her young adult son. She knows that lecturing him, and judging him will shut down lines of communication and give her zero opportunity to know what’s going on with him.

She's still being naive. She still has no idea how deeply he has or hasn't internalized the messages he's hearing.

It's strange the you think her only option other than merely listening and "having a window" is for her to "lecture and judge" him. There is a third option: She could treat him like the adult he supposedly is, and talk to him openly and frankly about why, as not just mom but as a woman, she knows this ideology is problematic at best and vile at worst. But nope, she's going to watch and wait so she doesn't alienate him. She doesn't have to lecture and alienate him but I don't see that she's truly engaging him either.

Amazing you gleaned all of that from
PP.

Look, as much as you’d like this stuff to be resolved by bumper sticker slogans, it’s more complex.

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Anonymous wrote:My 19yo ds is into the red pill. I have let him run his mouth about it to see how far down the hole he has gone. Most of it is about politics/economic structure (matrix) but it has also given him significant motivation to work hard and take care of himself - almost like a guide for what it is to be a "high value man." I have not heard misogyny but I am his mother and he knows how I feel about Andrew Tate.

Now, if I were dating a man in his 40s or whatever who referred to anything re Red Pill or used the words OP said he did, I would be out of there immediately.

You believe you're being smart and cagey, letting him "run his mouth" so you can gauge how far his thinking goes. But you're actually being naive (a term I feel sure will make you furious, but...you are naive.) Why? "I have not heard misogyny but I am his mother and he knows...." etc. What you have "heard" means exactly nothing. You have no idea what he's reading online, what he's writing in posts, what is inside his head. Just because you haven't heard comments you think are clearly misogynist, that does not mean he isn't engaging with others you don't know, and isn't buying every idea they're selling. He's your little boy and knows not to spew red pill misogyny in front of mom; that does not mean he isn't absorbing and internalizing it. But you seem to think it's good enough that you haven't heard it and he knows how you feel about ONE commentator. If you don't actually dig into what he thinks and tell him in no uncertain terms he's wrong, you have abdicated your role as a mother of a young man who is going to end up just another red piller, treating women...the way red pill men do.

And you even find the silver lining! He's working hard and taking care of himself to become a "high value man." The fact you present that as a kind of positive is baffling. Men can, and do, work hard and take care of themselves without the inspiration of this particular way of thinking. You sound desperate to find some kind of "up side" to your son's descent into this way of thinking. Well, he'll be buff, at least.

DP. Lay off. There’s no one proven way to respond. You seem more interested in forcing a mother to condemn and write off her son, than in what it would take to actually educate him and persuade him. I personally believe that the less taboo you make this stuff, the better. If this PP totally polarizes the matter, do you think that will help?

Condemn and write off? No.

Speak up clearly and unequivocally, calling out this red pill insanity, being clear that she can love him but also will not tolerate certain things? Yes.

Strange that you don't see the difference.

Not tolerate what? Ideas and beliefs he has? She can make clear she disagrees but saying “I will not tolerate your beliefs!” is a really juvenile way to go about engaging with someone.

DP. Wut? You think she should tolerate misogyny?

No wonder this country is going down the sheeter.

This specific exchange is in response to a mom w a 19 year old DS and rather than shut him down, she walks a line so that she can have a window into what he is thinking and experiencing. She’s not “tolerating misogyny” nor is her DS making misogynistic statements. She’s insightful enough to know that if he does have misogynistic thoughts and beliefs, he would likely filter them in front of her. IMO, she’s being a thoughtful parent of her young adult son. She knows that lecturing him, and judging him will shut down lines of communication and give her zero opportunity to know what’s going on with him.

She's still being naive. She still has no idea how deeply he has or hasn't internalized the messages he's hearing.

It's strange the you think her only option other than merely listening and "having a window" is for her to "lecture and judge" him. There is a third option: She could treat him like the adult he supposedly is, and talk to him openly and frankly about why, as not just mom but as a woman, she knows this ideology is problematic at best and vile at worst. But nope, she's going to watch and wait so she doesn't alienate him. She doesn't have to lecture and alienate him but I don't see that she's truly engaging him either.

A lot of assumptions here about me but I understand you have a point to prove.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Update. I had another conversation with him and it was even more disturbing than the last. Should I just block and delete? Or would you explain why you cannot continue?

Depending on how crazy the conversation, you can delete and block. Otherwise just let him know you aren’t compatible and leave it at that. I find men get a little crazy when you give more details about why you don’t want to see them again.

+1,000

OP, begging you now, delete and block now, now, now. You, yourself, describe this more recent interaction as "even more disturbing than the last." If the question is "should I explain why," the answer is no. If he asks, you won't hear it because: Deleted and blocked.

Are you still, on some level, feeling as if he's a good guy in other ways so maybe you "owe" him an explanation, or even should keep seeing him? We've covered that in the thread earlier. Listen to your gut, OP. You know that the good aspects cannot make up for a life philosophy like the one he's espousing. They just cannot. You've already invested enough time in the dates you've had; do not invest any more. Your time and energy are too precious for that kind of waste.

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Anonymous wrote:My 19yo ds is into the red pill. I have let him run his mouth about it to see how far down the hole he has gone. Most of it is about politics/economic structure (matrix) but it has also given him significant motivation to work hard and take care of himself - almost like a guide for what it is to be a "high value man." I have not heard misogyny but I am his mother and he knows how I feel about Andrew Tate.

Now, if I were dating a man in his 40s or whatever who referred to anything re Red Pill or used the words OP said he did, I would be out of there immediately.

You believe you're being smart and cagey, letting him "run his mouth" so you can gauge how far his thinking goes. But you're actually being naive (a term I feel sure will make you furious, but...you are naive.) Why? "I have not heard misogyny but I am his mother and he knows...." etc. What you have "heard" means exactly nothing. You have no idea what he's reading online, what he's writing in posts, what is inside his head. Just because you haven't heard comments you think are clearly misogynist, that does not mean he isn't engaging with others you don't know, and isn't buying every idea they're selling. He's your little boy and knows not to spew red pill misogyny in front of mom; that does not mean he isn't absorbing and internalizing it. But you seem to think it's good enough that you haven't heard it and he knows how you feel about ONE commentator. If you don't actually dig into what he thinks and tell him in no uncertain terms he's wrong, you have abdicated your role as a mother of a young man who is going to end up just another red piller, treating women...the way red pill men do.

And you even find the silver lining! He's working hard and taking care of himself to become a "high value man." The fact you present that as a kind of positive is baffling. Men can, and do, work hard and take care of themselves without the inspiration of this particular way of thinking. You sound desperate to find some kind of "up side" to your son's descent into this way of thinking. Well, he'll be buff, at least.

DP. Lay off. There’s no one proven way to respond. You seem more interested in forcing a mother to condemn and write off her son, than in what it would take to actually educate him and persuade him. I personally believe that the less taboo you make this stuff, the better. If this PP totally polarizes the matter, do you think that will help?

Condemn and write off? No.

Speak up clearly and unequivocally, calling out this red pill insanity, being clear that she can love him but also will not tolerate certain things? Yes.

Strange that you don't see the difference.

Not tolerate what? Ideas and beliefs he has? She can make clear she disagrees but saying “I will not tolerate your beliefs!” is a really juvenile way to go about engaging with someone.

DP. Wut? You think she should tolerate misogyny?

No wonder this country is going down the sheeter.

This specific exchange is in response to a mom w a 19 year old DS and rather than shut him down, she walks a line so that she can have a window into what he is thinking and experiencing. She’s not “tolerating misogyny” nor is her DS making misogynistic statements. She’s insightful enough to know that if he does have misogynistic thoughts and beliefs, he would likely filter them in front of her. IMO, she’s being a thoughtful parent of her young adult son. She knows that lecturing him, and judging him will shut down lines of communication and give her zero opportunity to know what’s going on with him.

She's still being naive. She still has no idea how deeply he has or hasn't internalized the messages he's hearing.

It's strange the you think her only option other than merely listening and "having a window" is for her to "lecture and judge" him. There is a third option: She could treat him like the adult he supposedly is, and talk to him openly and frankly about why, as not just mom but as a woman, she knows this ideology is problematic at best and vile at worst. But nope, she's going to watch and wait so she doesn't alienate him. She doesn't have to lecture and alienate him but I don't see that she's truly engaging him either.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m trying to follow all of this but I don’t understand how we can be whores slutting around with all the muscle jerks but also alone because we prioritized our careers? And also to blame for sexless nice men?

All the “normal” guys know is that they aren’t having sex and the women they like aren’t into them. Back in “the good old days,” it wasn’t like this.

With those as your givens, you can spin whatever narrative you want as explanations. If it weren’t for feminism, women would have to think long term about whether and with whom they had sex. They couldn’t just spend their twenties being part of Chad Thundercock’s harem!

And/or maybe they’re chasing a degree in Advanced Women’s Studies or a career in divorce law so hard they aren’t paying proper attention to settling down with a nice boy and making a home for him and his children.

"If women couldn't support themselves financially, I could be a worthless POS and yet still snag a woman who has no choice!" That's basically their thought process.

Funny how men say women end up alone and sad. Many women are alone by choice, while grown-azz men are still whining about Chad and trying to figure out how to get a woman to talk to them. As if women are the problem.

I think the thought processes of red pill guys are wrong, but not in this way. I had a creative writing teacher tell us to remember that everyone is the protagonist in their own story. And that story mostly doesn’t cast them as a villain. So they’re not thinking about how they can act like a POS and still get women. Mostly they’re going to claim they are doing what society tells them to do & women don’t like them. Then they’ll look for someone to blame for this outcome.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m trying to follow all of this but I don’t understand how we can be whores slutting around with all the muscle jerks but also alone because we prioritized our careers? And also to blame for sexless nice men?

All the “normal” guys know is that they aren’t having sex and the women they like aren’t into them. Back in “the good old days,” it wasn’t like this.

With those as your givens, you can spin whatever narrative you want as explanations. If it weren’t for feminism, women would have to think long term about whether and with whom they had sex. They couldn’t just spend their twenties being part of Chad Thundercock’s harem!

And/or maybe they’re chasing a degree in Advanced Women’s Studies or a career in divorce law so hard they aren’t paying proper attention to settling down with a nice boy and making a home for him and his children.

"If women couldn't support themselves financially, I could be a worthless POS and yet still snag a woman who has no choice!" That's basically their thought process.

Funny how men say women end up alone and sad. Many women are alone by choice, while grown-azz men are still whining about Chad and trying to figure out how to get a woman to talk to them. As if women are the problem.

I did love sex a lot when I was younger, and I had a fair amount with too many different men - most of whom hurt me very badly. If there was one thing I could change about my life it would be how easily I gave myself away to those men. I’ve done a lot of therapy and I understand that my serious daddy issues (he was horribly abusive to my mom and us kids) were at the root of my desperation to find love and that of course my hormones also compelled me to act outside my best interest. With age I became much more discriminating - by my early 20s I was achieving so much in academia that I wasn’t as desperate for male approval and I didn’t want to have sex with anybody who didn’t treat me well.

I think it’s great that women are saying no with more confidence and certainty these days. If men want sex, I’m pretty sure they could get it if they simply treated women better than most of them do. But they have a long way to go. I’ve been celibate by choice for 12 years now (I’m 52 and not unhappily single) and when I read on this board in the relationship threads I see women discussing relationship dynamics that I would simply not be willing to tolerate.

I don’t hate men - I’ve had many dear male friends over the course of my lifetime and some family members who were reasonably good guys too. But I do think that male behavior is general is not a net positive to society - or to themselves. I think the evidence of this - the violence against women and children and other men that is so rampant and mostly perpetrated by men - is simply undeniable. Whatever other progress we have made as a species, unless the typical ways of being of the human male change substantially in coming decades, we are headed to eventual extinction.

I don’t know the answers to how it happens, but I know the red pill contingent isn’t going to be part of the solution.

Anonymous wrote:I’m trying to follow all of this but I don’t understand how we can be whores slutting around with all the muscle jerks but also alone because we prioritized our careers? And also to blame for sexless nice men?

All the “normal” guys know is that they aren’t having sex and the women they like aren’t into them. Back in “the good old days,” it wasn’t like this.

With those as your givens, you can spin whatever narrative you want as explanations. If it weren’t for feminism, women would have to think long term about whether and with whom they had sex. They couldn’t just spend their twenties being part of Chad Thundercock’s harem!

And/or maybe they’re chasing a degree in Advanced Women’s Studies or a career in divorce law so hard they aren’t paying proper attention to settling down with a nice boy and making a home for him and his children.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My 19yo ds is into the red pill. I have let him run his mouth about it to see how far down the hole he has gone. Most of it is about politics/economic structure (matrix) but it has also given him significant motivation to work hard and take care of himself - almost like a guide for what it is to be a "high value man." I have not heard misogyny but I am his mother and he knows how I feel about Andrew Tate.

Now, if I were dating a man in his 40s or whatever who referred to anything re Red Pill or used the words OP said he did, I would be out of there immediately.

You believe you're being smart and cagey, letting him "run his mouth" so you can gauge how far his thinking goes. But you're actually being naive (a term I feel sure will make you furious, but...you are naive.) Why? "I have not heard misogyny but I am his mother and he knows...." etc. What you have "heard" means exactly nothing. You have no idea what he's reading online, what he's writing in posts, what is inside his head. Just because you haven't heard comments you think are clearly misogynist, that does not mean he isn't engaging with others you don't know, and isn't buying every idea they're selling. He's your little boy and knows not to spew red pill misogyny in front of mom; that does not mean he isn't absorbing and internalizing it. But you seem to think it's good enough that you haven't heard it and he knows how you feel about ONE commentator. If you don't actually dig into what he thinks and tell him in no uncertain terms he's wrong, you have abdicated your role as a mother of a young man who is going to end up just another red piller, treating women...the way red pill men do.

And you even find the silver lining! He's working hard and taking care of himself to become a "high value man." The fact you present that as a kind of positive is baffling. Men can, and do, work hard and take care of themselves without the inspiration of this particular way of thinking. You sound desperate to find some kind of "up side" to your son's descent into this way of thinking. Well, he'll be buff, at least.

DP. Lay off. There’s no one proven way to respond. You seem more interested in forcing a mother to condemn and write off her son, than in what it would take to actually educate him and persuade him. I personally believe that the less taboo you make this stuff, the better. If this PP totally polarizes the matter, do you think that will help?

Condemn and write off? No.

Speak up clearly and unequivocally, calling out this red pill insanity, being clear that she can love him but also will not tolerate certain things? Yes.

Strange that you don't see the difference.

Not tolerate what? Ideas and beliefs he has? She can make clear she disagrees but saying “I will not tolerate your beliefs!” is a really juvenile way to go about engaging with someone.

DP. Wut? You think she should tolerate misogyny?

No wonder this country is going down the sheeter.

This specific exchange is in response to a mom w a 19 year old DS and rather than shut him down, she walks a line so that she can have a window into what he is thinking and experiencing. She’s not “tolerating misogyny” nor is her DS making misogynistic statements. She’s insightful enough to know that if he does have misogynistic thoughts and beliefs, he would likely filter them in front of her. IMO, she’s being a thoughtful parent of her young adult son. She knows that lecturing him, and judging him will shut down lines of communication and give her zero opportunity to know what’s going on with him.

Anonymous wrote:I’m trying to follow all of this but I don’t understand how we can be whores slutting around with all the muscle jerks but also alone because we prioritized our careers? And also to blame for sexless nice men?

It’s the same as how “the Mexicans” are taking all the jobs but also lazy gubmint leeches.

Anonymous wrote:OP here. He inferred that women over 30 who aren’t married are whores who just want to have a bunch of sex, and that their degrees won’t keep them warm at night. He also made multiple comments about how “women are”. It’s weird that he kept lumping all women together and generalizing. I’ve run across this before and find it creepy. But there were also good things about him.

Oh honey, no. Find someone else.

Anonymous wrote:Update. I had another conversation with him and it was even more disturbing than the last. Should I just block and delete? Or would you explain why you cannot continue?

Depending on how crazy the conversation, you can delete and block. Otherwise just let him know you aren’t compatible and leave it at that. I find men get a little crazy when you give more details about why you don’t want to see them again.