Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I am surprised this thread took off. To be clear, I did not mean that people in big law should never complain to anyone about their jobs, or that it is not an objectively tough career, or that I made perfect choices in my life (far from it!). I am actually a pretty empathetic person and will frequently serve as a sounding board for my friends and neighbors.

Everyone complains about things that are hard sometimes!

However, complaining and then following up with how despite how miserable you are, there is no way to change your circumstances is another thing entirely. It's especially egregious when your audience is a person or group of people who undoubtedly make way less money and you are specifically saying you can't do something different because it's impossible to live on less money, so you have no other options. I do not live in a super expensive neighborhood for DC so I challenge the notion that people would need a big law salary to pay their mortgage, though I get that everyone's finances are different. I am not saying it's easy to make a lateral move but most attorneys in this area have tons of options, especially compared to people without advanced degrees.

That's all!

Per your OP your family objectively does make good money though even if less than biglaw money. I ballparked your HHI at around $275K earlier, the people complaining may not have the ability to have an HHI that is that high and may not be able to stay in the neighborhood if they take the jobs that are available to them. You can't really separate the pay cut you took from the fact that your spouse also makes good money. I guess it is a choice that people marry nurses and teachers that don't make a ton of money but you don't necessarily know their personal circumstances.

A Big Law attorney who left for a government, non profit, small law position could easily still make 150k, and a teacher or nurse in this area can definitely make 75-100k. So even if you were married to a lower earner, if you are a lawyer with the background that enables you to get a Big Law job, you can still definitely live within OP's general income level.

So actually... OP is not in some magic situation where she's just so luck because her spouse is a super high earner. This area is full of dual earner couples making around 250k off of pretty ordinary jobs where they each earn between 100 and 150k. Especially once people get into their 40s.

PP here and I guess it just depends if those options are actually available. Government is pretty hard to get so I wouldn't assume that is a readily available option. I also wouldn't assume the comp at a non-profit or a small firm would be $150K, could be closer to $100K so you could be looking at a $75K - $100K difference in comp than OP. I agree there are a lot of couples in the income bracket you mentioned with ordinary jobs, it just might not be the case that the folks complaining have options that put them there.

Y'all are really twisting yourselves into knots in order to defend the ridiculous-on-its-face notion that a Big Law attorney making 300k+ is trapped with zero option and deserving of all the sympathy one has to give.

This is silly.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I am surprised this thread took off. To be clear, I did not mean that people in big law should never complain to anyone about their jobs, or that it is not an objectively tough career, or that I made perfect choices in my life (far from it!). I am actually a pretty empathetic person and will frequently serve as a sounding board for my friends and neighbors.

Everyone complains about things that are hard sometimes!

However, complaining and then following up with how despite how miserable you are, there is no way to change your circumstances is another thing entirely. It's especially egregious when your audience is a person or group of people who undoubtedly make way less money and you are specifically saying you can't do something different because it's impossible to live on less money, so you have no other options. I do not live in a super expensive neighborhood for DC so I challenge the notion that people would need a big law salary to pay their mortgage, though I get that everyone's finances are different. I am not saying it's easy to make a lateral move but most attorneys in this area have tons of options, especially compared to people without advanced degrees.

That's all!

Yup, the issue is not "I don't like my job" or "My job is stressful."

The issue is "I can't leave my job [because then I'd have to live the way you do, and YUCK]." Which, for the record, is actually what some people who complain about this issue actually mean. Some people don't mean it explicitly but may simply not be self-aware enough to realize it's implied. And some people don't mean it at all but still lack self-awareness in how it is interpreted.

You’re mistaking your projection and self-centeredness for a lack of self awareness in others. That’s not inherently the subtext of these complaints.

Guess what, most people are self-centered. You are expecting other people to someone NOT be self-centered and to empathize with someone who is saying "I can't possible leave my job that I hate because then I'd make less money" when they make signficantly more money than the person they are saying to this. It is an unrealistic expectation.

That is what I mean by self-awareness. People who do this are vastly overestimating the capacity of others to totally set aside their own situation and lives and instead simply empathize with their situation. Most people can't/won't do it, and thus if you run around whining to people about how hard your 300-500k/yr job is and how you can't possible leave it because this amount of money is essential to functioning, be prepared for people to roll their eyes, talk about you behind your back, and generally consider you to be a tool.

I'm not weighing in on the morality of this. It's just how the world works.

Big law attorneys making 3x what I make as a govt attorney complaining about a choice they made? Cry me a f-ing river ...

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I am surprised this thread took off. To be clear, I did not mean that people in big law should never complain to anyone about their jobs, or that it is not an objectively tough career, or that I made perfect choices in my life (far from it!). I am actually a pretty empathetic person and will frequently serve as a sounding board for my friends and neighbors.

Everyone complains about things that are hard sometimes!

However, complaining and then following up with how despite how miserable you are, there is no way to change your circumstances is another thing entirely. It's especially egregious when your audience is a person or group of people who undoubtedly make way less money and you are specifically saying you can't do something different because it's impossible to live on less money, so you have no other options. I do not live in a super expensive neighborhood for DC so I challenge the notion that people would need a big law salary to pay their mortgage, though I get that everyone's finances are different. I am not saying it's easy to make a lateral move but most attorneys in this area have tons of options, especially compared to people without advanced degrees.

That's all!

Per your OP your family objectively does make good money though even if less than biglaw money. I ballparked your HHI at around $275K earlier, the people complaining may not have the ability to have an HHI that is that high and may not be able to stay in the neighborhood if they take the jobs that are available to them. You can't really separate the pay cut you took from the fact that your spouse also makes good money. I guess it is a choice that people marry nurses and teachers that don't make a ton of money but you don't necessarily know their personal circumstances.

A Big Law attorney who left for a government, non profit, small law position could easily still make 150k, and a teacher or nurse in this area can definitely make 75-100k. So even if you were married to a lower earner, if you are a lawyer with the background that enables you to get a Big Law job, you can still definitely live within OP's general income level.

So actually... OP is not in some magic situation where she's just so luck because her spouse is a super high earner. This area is full of dual earner couples making around 250k off of pretty ordinary jobs where they each earn between 100 and 150k. Especially once people get into their 40s.

PP here and I guess it just depends if those options are actually available. Government is pretty hard to get so I wouldn't assume that is a readily available option. I also wouldn't assume the comp at a non-profit or a small firm would be $150K, could be closer to $100K so you could be looking at a $75K - $100K difference in comp than OP. I agree there are a lot of couples in the income bracket you mentioned with ordinary jobs, it just might not be the case that the folks complaining have options that put them there.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I am surprised this thread took off. To be clear, I did not mean that people in big law should never complain to anyone about their jobs, or that it is not an objectively tough career, or that I made perfect choices in my life (far from it!). I am actually a pretty empathetic person and will frequently serve as a sounding board for my friends and neighbors.

Everyone complains about things that are hard sometimes!

However, complaining and then following up with how despite how miserable you are, there is no way to change your circumstances is another thing entirely. It's especially egregious when your audience is a person or group of people who undoubtedly make way less money and you are specifically saying you can't do something different because it's impossible to live on less money, so you have no other options. I do not live in a super expensive neighborhood for DC so I challenge the notion that people would need a big law salary to pay their mortgage, though I get that everyone's finances are different. I am not saying it's easy to make a lateral move but most attorneys in this area have tons of options, especially compared to people without advanced degrees.

That's all!

Yup, the issue is not "I don't like my job" or "My job is stressful."

The issue is "I can't leave my job [because then I'd have to live the way you do, and YUCK]." Which, for the record, is actually what some people who complain about this issue actually mean. Some people don't mean it explicitly but may simply not be self-aware enough to realize it's implied. And some people don't mean it at all but still lack self-awareness in how it is interpreted.

You’re mistaking your projection and self-centeredness for a lack of self awareness in others. That’s not inherently the subtext of these complaints.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What irritates me is believing that making a choice to do something means you aren't allowed to complain about it. Becoming a parent, going to a rigorous school, getting married, taking a low-paying job, living close to family, etc. are all valid choices and they also have valid downsides. I get that it's a little off-putting to complain about a job that puts in in the top 1% of earners, but that objection is unrelated to the choice to take the job.

You have to choose your audience.

Everyone can complain about the aspects of their lives that are hard. But THINK about the person you are talking to before doing so.

Do you think it is appropriate for an UMC person to complain to their nanny or housekeeper, who is making maybe 40-60k yr in a labor intensive job, about their work? Especially if that nanny/housekeeper can see that this is someone who has a lot of flexibility to work remotely, lives in a nice house, can afford lots of nice electronics and clothes and high quality food? No, that's incredibly rude and poor form.

As a lawyer, would you complain to the paralegals or assistants in your office about how hard your job is and how many hours you work, knowing that not only do they make significantly less than you, but they also often suffer the same consequences of a difficult business that you do? They might not work exactly the same hours and don't have the same level of responsibility so not quite as much stress, but they are working hard on the exact same projects as you, in an often high stress environment. Is that the correct audience for you to complain about the challenges of your job? No, it absolutely is not.

Well guess what, the mom from down the street who chose to leave Big Law for a much lower paying legal career is ALSO not the right audience.

The truth is that the more money you make and have, the more selective you need to be about complaining. It is a downside of wealthy, but guess what? You have a ton of resources and can use them to find people to complain to. You can complain to your spouse, you can hire a therapist or life coach, you can develop relationships with colleagues on your level that enable you to vent about these aspects of the job. But no, you cannot complain about how demanding your very high paying job is to people who make much, much less than you and don't have the kind of relationship with you that obligates them to a very high level of empathy/tolerance of complaining. And that includes friends in very different economic situations. Grow up and accept this. Very few people owe you their time and bottomless empathy just because you have a very stressful, demanding job.

You are swinging against arguments nobody is making here. I know you're trying to make a point with your hyperbole here but not one person said anybody is *owed* empathy at all. I'm well aware of ring theory and the idea that complaining about golden handcuffs to your assistant is remotely like complaining to somebody who used to have a high-paying job and still an enviable standard of living is ridiculous. That's making yourself out to be some kind of victim that you are not.

Also, I've actually never complained about having a high-paying job because I've never had one, and I'd bet money I'll never earn what OP makes now.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I am surprised this thread took off. To be clear, I did not mean that people in big law should never complain to anyone about their jobs, or that it is not an objectively tough career, or that I made perfect choices in my life (far from it!). I am actually a pretty empathetic person and will frequently serve as a sounding board for my friends and neighbors.

Everyone complains about things that are hard sometimes!

However, complaining and then following up with how despite how miserable you are, there is no way to change your circumstances is another thing entirely. It's especially egregious when your audience is a person or group of people who undoubtedly make way less money and you are specifically saying you can't do something different because it's impossible to live on less money, so you have no other options. I do not live in a super expensive neighborhood for DC so I challenge the notion that people would need a big law salary to pay their mortgage, though I get that everyone's finances are different. I am not saying it's easy to make a lateral move but most attorneys in this area have tons of options, especially compared to people without advanced degrees.

That's all!

Per your OP your family objectively does make good money though even if less than biglaw money. I ballparked your HHI at around $275K earlier, the people complaining may not have the ability to have an HHI that is that high and may not be able to stay in the neighborhood if they take the jobs that are available to them. You can't really separate the pay cut you took from the fact that your spouse also makes good money. I guess it is a choice that people marry nurses and teachers that don't make a ton of money but you don't necessarily know their personal circumstances.

A Big Law attorney who left for a government, non profit, small law position could easily still make 150k, and a teacher or nurse in this area can definitely make 75-100k. So even if you were married to a lower earner, if you are a lawyer with the background that enables you to get a Big Law job, you can still definitely live within OP's general income level.

So actually... OP is not in some magic situation where she's just so luck because her spouse is a super high earner. This area is full of dual earner couples making around 250k off of pretty ordinary jobs where they each earn between 100 and 150k. Especially once people get into their 40s.

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I am surprised this thread took off. To be clear, I did not mean that people in big law should never complain to anyone about their jobs, or that it is not an objectively tough career, or that I made perfect choices in my life (far from it!). I am actually a pretty empathetic person and will frequently serve as a sounding board for my friends and neighbors.

Everyone complains about things that are hard sometimes!

However, complaining and then following up with how despite how miserable you are, there is no way to change your circumstances is another thing entirely. It's especially egregious when your audience is a person or group of people who undoubtedly make way less money and you are specifically saying you can't do something different because it's impossible to live on less money, so you have no other options. I do not live in a super expensive neighborhood for DC so I challenge the notion that people would need a big law salary to pay their mortgage, though I get that everyone's finances are different. I am not saying it's easy to make a lateral move but most attorneys in this area have tons of options, especially compared to people without advanced degrees.

That's all!

Yup, the issue is not "I don't like my job" or "My job is stressful."

The issue is "I can't leave my job [because then I'd have to live the way you do, and YUCK]." Which, for the record, is actually what some people who complain about this issue actually mean. Some people don't mean it explicitly but may simply not be self-aware enough to realize it's implied. And some people don't mean it at all but still lack self-awareness in how it is interpreted.

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I am surprised this thread took off. To be clear, I did not mean that people in big law should never complain to anyone about their jobs, or that it is not an objectively tough career, or that I made perfect choices in my life (far from it!). I am actually a pretty empathetic person and will frequently serve as a sounding board for my friends and neighbors.

Everyone complains about things that are hard sometimes!

However, complaining and then following up with how despite how miserable you are, there is no way to change your circumstances is another thing entirely. It's especially egregious when your audience is a person or group of people who undoubtedly make way less money and you are specifically saying you can't do something different because it's impossible to live on less money, so you have no other options. I do not live in a super expensive neighborhood for DC so I challenge the notion that people would need a big law salary to pay their mortgage, though I get that everyone's finances are different. I am not saying it's easy to make a lateral move but most attorneys in this area have tons of options, especially compared to people without advanced degrees.

That's all!

Per your OP your family objectively does make good money though even if less than biglaw money. I ballparked your HHI at around $275K earlier, the people complaining may not have the ability to have an HHI that is that high and may not be able to stay in the neighborhood if they take the jobs that are available to them. You can't really separate the pay cut you took from the fact that your spouse also makes good money. I guess it is a choice that people marry nurses and teachers that don't make a ton of money but you don't necessarily know their personal circumstances.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What irritates me is believing that making a choice to do something means you aren't allowed to complain about it. Becoming a parent, going to a rigorous school, getting married, taking a low-paying job, living close to family, etc. are all valid choices and they also have valid downsides. I get that it's a little off-putting to complain about a job that puts in in the top 1% of earners, but that objection is unrelated to the choice to take the job.

You have to choose your audience.

Everyone can complain about the aspects of their lives that are hard. But THINK about the person you are talking to before doing so.

Do you think it is appropriate for an UMC person to complain to their nanny or housekeeper, who is making maybe 40-60k yr in a labor intensive job, about their work? Especially if that nanny/housekeeper can see that this is someone who has a lot of flexibility to work remotely, lives in a nice house, can afford lots of nice electronics and clothes and high quality food? No, that's incredibly rude and poor form.

As a lawyer, would you complain to the paralegals or assistants in your office about how hard your job is and how many hours you work, knowing that not only do they make significantly less than you, but they also often suffer the same consequences of a difficult business that you do? They might not work exactly the same hours and don't have the same level of responsibility so not quite as much stress, but they are working hard on the exact same projects as you, in an often high stress environment. Is that the correct audience for you to complain about the challenges of your job? No, it absolutely is not.

Well guess what, the mom from down the street who chose to leave Big Law for a much lower paying legal career is ALSO not the right audience.

The truth is that the more money you make and have, the more selective you need to be about complaining. It is a downside of wealthy, but guess what? You have a ton of resources and can use them to find people to complain to. You can complain to your spouse, you can hire a therapist or life coach, you can develop relationships with colleagues on your level that enable you to vent about these aspects of the job. But no, you cannot complain about how demanding your very high paying job is to people who make much, much less than you and don't have the kind of relationship with you that obligates them to a very high level of empathy/tolerance of complaining. And that includes friends in very different economic situations. Grow up and accept this. Very few people owe you their time and bottomless empathy just because you have a very stressful, demanding job.

Oh but why? They CHOOSE to make less money. It’s all in their control. Why would they be sensitive about it when it’s all their personal choices?

OP here.

I am surprised this thread took off. To be clear, I did not mean that people in big law should never complain to anyone about their jobs, or that it is not an objectively tough career, or that I made perfect choices in my life (far from it!). I am actually a pretty empathetic person and will frequently serve as a sounding board for my friends and neighbors.

Everyone complains about things that are hard sometimes!

However, complaining and then following up with how despite how miserable you are, there is no way to change your circumstances is another thing entirely. It's especially egregious when your audience is a person or group of people who undoubtedly make way less money and you are specifically saying you can't do something different because it's impossible to live on less money, so you have no other options. I do not live in a super expensive neighborhood for DC so I challenge the notion that people would need a big law salary to pay their mortgage, though I get that everyone's finances are different. I am not saying it's easy to make a lateral move but most attorneys in this area have tons of options, especially compared to people without advanced degrees.

That's all!

Anonymous wrote:What irritates me is believing that making a choice to do something means you aren't allowed to complain about it. Becoming a parent, going to a rigorous school, getting married, taking a low-paying job, living close to family, etc. are all valid choices and they also have valid downsides. I get that it's a little off-putting to complain about a job that puts in in the top 1% of earners, but that objection is unrelated to the choice to take the job.

You have to choose your audience.

Everyone can complain about the aspects of their lives that are hard. But THINK about the person you are talking to before doing so.

Do you think it is appropriate for an UMC person to complain to their nanny or housekeeper, who is making maybe 40-60k yr in a labor intensive job, about their work? Especially if that nanny/housekeeper can see that this is someone who has a lot of flexibility to work remotely, lives in a nice house, can afford lots of nice electronics and clothes and high quality food? No, that's incredibly rude and poor form.

As a lawyer, would you complain to the paralegals or assistants in your office about how hard your job is and how many hours you work, knowing that not only do they make significantly less than you, but they also often suffer the same consequences of a difficult business that you do? They might not work exactly the same hours and don't have the same level of responsibility so not quite as much stress, but they are working hard on the exact same projects as you, in an often high stress environment. Is that the correct audience for you to complain about the challenges of your job? No, it absolutely is not.

Well guess what, the mom from down the street who chose to leave Big Law for a much lower paying legal career is ALSO not the right audience.

The truth is that the more money you make and have, the more selective you need to be about complaining. It is a downside of wealthy, but guess what? You have a ton of resources and can use them to find people to complain to. You can complain to your spouse, you can hire a therapist or life coach, you can develop relationships with colleagues on your level that enable you to vent about these aspects of the job. But no, you cannot complain about how demanding your very high paying job is to people who make much, much less than you and don't have the kind of relationship with you that obligates them to a very high level of empathy/tolerance of complaining. And that includes friends in very different economic situations. Grow up and accept this. Very few people owe you their time and bottomless empathy just because you have a very stressful, demanding job.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you have already devoted way more time to thinking about this than it requires. We get it, you made all the perfect choices and now have the perfect work/life balance, so no one is allowed to complain because they too could have made those choices but they didn’t, so screw them.

These complainers are just making small talk at the bus stop, commiserating with other lawyers. Just smile and nod and change the subject or find some non lawyers to chat with. Or make a statement about how the complaining is driving you nuts and making you feel bad about your lower salary. I couldn’t hack it in Big Law and quit and am now a SAHM. People complain to me about long hours when they have the job that I wanted. That’s life!

People complain ALL the time about things that are within their capacity to change. A friend today was complaining how exhausting summer swim team is and it’s such a pain to get her kids to the pool every day and it’s too competitive and the coach is a jerk etc. She could easily pull her kids or switch pools or hire someone to do the driving or whatever. But she doesn’t want that, she just wants someone to agree that swim team is terrible and then I will take a turn venting about how hard I am working to organize an end of the year party for my kid, even though I volunteered for this!

I get your point that it's important to show empathy... no toxic positivity... etc. On the other hand, there are people who are fundamentally negative and complain out of habit. Why should we enable those people?

And there's no such thing as a perfect choice, there are always tradeoffs

That's a different objection, though. OP didn't say anything about one person being fundamentally negative and complaining about of habit. And TBH I wouldn't be surprised if OP is that kind of person.

What irritates me is believing that making a choice to do something means you aren't allowed to complain about it. Becoming a parent, going to a rigorous school, getting married, taking a low-paying job, living close to family, etc. are all valid choices and they also have valid downsides. I get that it's a little off-putting to complain about a job that puts in in the top 1% of earners, but that objection is unrelated to the choice to take the job.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you have already devoted way more time to thinking about this than it requires. We get it, you made all the perfect choices and now have the perfect work/life balance, so no one is allowed to complain because they too could have made those choices but they didn’t, so screw them.

These complainers are just making small talk at the bus stop, commiserating with other lawyers. Just smile and nod and change the subject or find some non lawyers to chat with. Or make a statement about how the complaining is driving you nuts and making you feel bad about your lower salary. I couldn’t hack it in Big Law and quit and am now a SAHM. People complain to me about long hours when they have the job that I wanted. That’s life!

People complain ALL the time about things that are within their capacity to change. A friend today was complaining how exhausting summer swim team is and it’s such a pain to get her kids to the pool every day and it’s too competitive and the coach is a jerk etc. She could easily pull her kids or switch pools or hire someone to do the driving or whatever. But she doesn’t want that, she just wants someone to agree that swim team is terrible and then I will take a turn venting about how hard I am working to organize an end of the year party for my kid, even though I volunteered for this!

I get your point that it's important to show empathy... no toxic positivity... etc. On the other hand, there are people who are fundamentally negative and complain out of habit. Why should we enable those people?

And there's no such thing as a perfect choice, there are always tradeoffs

The perfect choice is show some grace and stop being so judgmental and harsh to people you’re pretending are your friends.