Anonymous wrote:The level of self-pitying "DCUM middle-class" is gross. Stop feeling so sorry for yourself. Your kids have a lot of privilege and choice. If you really think that growing up poor is ultimately advantageous, why don't you give up your house and your belongings, take on an hourly wage job at in a nursing home, work nights at McDonalds,. enroll your kids in a Ward 8 public school, have them take the bus everywhere, work afterschool, and watch the younger siblings when you are out working. Don't forget to deny your kids opportunities like summer camp, because they need to work.
And then when your child gets top grades, high SAT scores (no tutoring, remember!), then please, come back on this board and let us know that the poor are really reciving an advantage in college admissions compared to the kids from families making $150K year.

Mic drop....

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Anonymous wrote:How many low-income kids are from families that can afford to live in a “good” school zone or attend private k-12, even if some FA is offered? How many poor kids do you think went to Kumon or Mathnasium? Or got to participate in club sports? I could go on.

And that is why the elite unversities have holistic admissions and will take students who might not have 15 APs, a 4.9+ gpa and 1580+ SAT. Poor kids are disadvantaged for the first 18 years of their life and majority do not have access to same education to achieve the high level. So those that do and/or come close do it thru hard work and dedication only. These kids are smart and will go far given the right situation (ie. college that they can afford)

No one has a problem with SES based holistic admissions. It's the race based one that some people do not agree with. There are low income kids from all races, btw.

The current lowest income group on average is Black families (look it up), with hispanic families being slightly above that. So those that "have issues with race based holistic admissions" really seem to have a problem with black and hispanic kids getting accepted. However, those are the groups with the lowest average SES in the USA currently, so logically those are the groups who will benefit the most from SES based holistic admissions. Yes I know there are white kids who are also poor and plenty of them get accepted as well.

+1 it's almost like...wait for it...race and ses are intrinsically and inherently linked in this country *surprised pikachu face*

man, some of ya'll are DUMB dumb.

No, that's not what we are seeing. Wealthy Black/Hispanic students with lower scores have it easier than a MC Asian/White family. Why do you think wealthyish "white" people with blue eyes and blonde hair whose ancestors are from Spain are claiming "Hispanic" ? Because it gives them an edge.

Anonymous wrote:The level of self-pitying "DCUM middle-class" is gross. Stop feeling so sorry for yourself. Your kids have a lot of privilege and choice. If you really think that growing up poor is ultimately advantageous, why don't you give up your house and your belongings, take on an hourly wage job at in a nursing home, work nights at McDonalds,. enroll your kids in a Ward 8 public school, have them take the bus everywhere, work afterschool, and watch the younger siblings when you are out working. Don't forget to deny your kids opportunities like summer camp, because they need to work.
And then when your child gets top grades, high SAT scores (no tutoring, remember!), then please, come back on this board and let us know that the poor are really reciving an advantage in college admissions compared to the kids from families making $150K year.

+1 million

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Anonymous wrote:I didn’t know poor people make $150k or $100k.

Yeah, that's us, and I consider us middle class. Do the $200k+ people really think they are middle class? Maybe UMC at closest.

You must be one of those people posting from rural Kansas.

200K is middle class when the average house sells for 618K and 30 year mortgage rates are 7.2% and progressive federal and local taxes eat the first 40%+ of that income.

In the DC area, the upper band of MC is about $220K.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/02/middle-class-income-in-major-us-cities.html

And $220K is not all that different from $250K after taxes, certainly not enough to pay for $80K/year tuition.

So you’re talking about families who have save nothing toward college tuition until their kid enrolls freshman year? I certainly agree that family cannot cash flow $80k COA.

Well, you are assuming that people make $200K/ year from when a kid is born, thus saving $$ per year. Most people don't start out making that much.

Our HHI is $200K. We max out our retirement because we are in our 50s and have no family money (and actually, I help my family financially).

We manage to save $20K per year for college for two kids in the past couple of years, But, we haven't been able to do that from when they were born, only in the past few years. Prior to that, we were saving $5k to $10k/yr. They have $130K each.

You'd have to have saved $320K total for each kid in order for you to afford private for both. That's an insane amount of money for people considered middle class in a high col.

Even at $10K/yr at birth, with a rate of 6% growth, that would be about $300K. And this is assuming $200K income 20 years ago.

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Anonymous wrote:How many low-income kids are from families that can afford to live in a “good” school zone or attend private k-12, even if some FA is offered? How many poor kids do you think went to Kumon or Mathnasium? Or got to participate in club sports? I could go on.

And that is why the elite unversities have holistic admissions and will take students who might not have 15 APs, a 4.9+ gpa and 1580+ SAT. Poor kids are disadvantaged for the first 18 years of their life and majority do not have access to same education to achieve the high level. So those that do and/or come close do it thru hard work and dedication only. These kids are smart and will go far given the right situation (ie. college that they can afford)

No one has a problem with SES based holistic admissions. It's the race based one that some people do not agree with. There are low income kids from all races, btw.

The current lowest income group on average is Black families (look it up), with hispanic families being slightly above that. So those that "have issues with race based holistic admissions" really seem to have a problem with black and hispanic kids getting accepted. However, those are the groups with the lowest average SES in the USA currently, so logically those are the groups who will benefit the most from SES based holistic admissions. Yes I know there are white kids who are also poor and plenty of them get accepted as well.

+1 it's almost like...wait for it...race and ses are intrinsically and inherently linked in this country *surprised pikachu face*

man, some of ya'll are DUMB dumb.

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Anonymous wrote:The opposite is true,

according to the new research by Stanford economist Raj Chetty and co-authors.They show that 14.5% of students in America’s elite universities (eight Ivy League colleges, University of Chicago, Stanford, MIT, and Duke) are from families in the top 1% of income distribution, compared with only 3.8% from the bottom quintile. That’s a dramatic overrepresentation of the richest Americans.

But think about it. We are talking about a 320k education. Why would the very poor and the very rich be equally represented? Also there are many moor poor people than very rich people so while very rich people are of course over represented they seem to be very much outnumbered by lower income people on campus.

? You have a 4x better shot at bumping into someone whose family is in the top 1% than in the bottom 25%. How are they “very much outnumbered”?

Because there are more bottom quintile kids than top 1% kids. My claim is not that the average poor kid has a better chance of being a Harvard student than the average rich kid, it's that there are more of them on Harvard's campus than rich kids.

The numbers cited were percentage of the student body. 14% of the student body is… more than 3%.

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Anonymous wrote:You’re free to quit your job if being poor is so awesome. *Crickets*

I suspect a lot of families do somehow game the financial aid system this way. Like maybe one parent stops working. Getting 320k of aid bears a pre tax income of 80k or whatever

This is what I was thinking of all the many families that own their own businesses, are consultants ... There are probably so many ways to adjust your income with expenses that it shows you're making way less than you really are.

My college roommate was getting a full ride, family owned a restaurant, they dropped him off in a fancy Lexus sedan (this was the 90s). My parents were teachers, had to take a lot of loans. Drove an Oldsmobile.

Seems like your roommate was probably getting merit aid since back then schools weren’t as interested in meeting full need with grants, as evidenced by your parents’ situation.

It was Ivy so no. His family just must have had low reported income and assets. That was the point. FAFSA can be gamed just as taxes can esp by business owners.

Hmm? Yes merit aid existed at Ivies pre 2010…

Definitely not after 1994. And probably not prior. https://www.ctinsider.com/college/article/Could-athletic-scholarships-be-coming-to-Ivy-17507200.php

The level of self-pitying "DCUM middle-class" is gross. Stop feeling so sorry for yourself. Your kids have a lot of privilege and choice. If you really think that growing up poor is ultimately advantageous, why don't you give up your house and your belongings, take on an hourly wage job at in a nursing home, work nights at McDonalds,. enroll your kids in a Ward 8 public school, have them take the bus everywhere, work afterschool, and watch the younger siblings when you are out working. Don't forget to deny your kids opportunities like summer camp, because they need to work.
And then when your child gets top grades, high SAT scores (no tutoring, remember!), then please, come back on this board and let us know that the poor are really reciving an advantage in college admissions compared to the kids from families making $150K year.

Hopefully top colleges continue to help more people with upwardly mobility! The PP is correct that the best schools have been far better about need-based grants over the last 20 years. I hope they will help grow a stronger middle class and upper class that wasn't just born into money too.

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Anonymous wrote:I didn’t know poor people make $150k or $100k.

Yeah, that's us, and I consider us middle class. Do the $200k+ people really think they are middle class? Maybe UMC at closest.

You must be one of those people posting from rural Kansas.

200K is middle class when the average house sells for 618K and 30 year mortgage rates are 7.2% and progressive federal and local taxes eat the first 40%+ of that income.

You chose to live here. Why didn’t you choose to live in rural Kansas?

Because my 120K job here would probably make me 60K there. If it even existed. Which is wouldn't, in rural Kansas.

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Anonymous wrote:I used to joke that 2 years before our eldest went to college we would both quit our jobs and emancipate the children, then they'd get a free ride. We didn't do either of those things, are just sucking it up and paying and taking out loans

Please tell me you’re aware that colleges care about ASSETS. If you make $0 but have $200k in a 529, you’re not getting FA.

No. Your EFC would only be $11,280 for the first year if all else were truly zero. 529s are parental assets and assessed at 5.64% toward EFC.

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Anonymous wrote:LOL. OP, they are for rich people, with a smattering of merit-based poor and middle-class famliies so the rich can feel like they also made it on merit.

Yet 2/3 of students are receiving need based aid. So “primarily” doesn’t seem to work. And as I mentioned international students (typically full pay) are 10 pct. Doesn’t leave a lot of full pay domestic students. And half of them may not qualify for aid but parents are struggling to pay for it, borrowing against 401ks etc

Idiots in bolded.

Lol, you think it's a bad idea to wipe out your retirement assets to buy your daughter a $320k Bachelors degree in Anthropology from Bryn Mawr?

What if the 320k anthro degree from Bryn Mawr is a 320k artificial intelligence degree from Carnegie Melon or a 320k quantitative economics degree from MIT? It's not just majors that you consider to be lightweight at SLACs that have become unaffordable

I would never borrow against a 401K, take out a HELOC, co-sign for a private student loan or take out Parent Plus loans. Not even for a CS degree from CMU.

It would be stupid to do so. Anyone qualified to get a CS degree from CMU will do well at any university. They will still find a FAANG job if that is what they want. Main difference is they will spend less to get their degree.
So if you can afford CMU great, but if not, find a school you can afford and get that CS degree

What? The top tech companies get far more applications per opening than any of the best universities. You don't just get a job like that because you want it, especially given the interview processes they have. Plus, with the pullback in tech, they probably are not going to be hiring as many entry level people as before either.

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Anonymous wrote:I didn’t know poor people make $150k or $100k.

Yeah, that's us, and I consider us middle class. Do the $200k+ people really think they are middle class? Maybe UMC at closest.

You must be one of those people posting from rural Kansas.

200K is middle class when the average house sells for 618K and 30 year mortgage rates are 7.2% and progressive federal and local taxes eat the first 40%+ of that income.

In the DC area, the upper band of MC is about $220K.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/02/middle-class-income-in-major-us-cities.html

And $220K is not all that different from $250K after taxes, certainly not enough to pay for $80K/year tuition.

So you’re talking about families who have save nothing toward college tuition until their kid enrolls freshman year? I certainly agree that family cannot cash flow $80k COA.

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Anonymous wrote:You’re free to quit your job if being poor is so awesome. *Crickets*

I suspect a lot of families do somehow game the financial aid system this way. Like maybe one parent stops working. Getting 320k of aid bears a pre tax income of 80k or whatever

This is what I was thinking of all the many families that own their own businesses, are consultants ... There are probably so many ways to adjust your income with expenses that it shows you're making way less than you really are.

My college roommate was getting a full ride, family owned a restaurant, they dropped him off in a fancy Lexus sedan (this was the 90s). My parents were teachers, had to take a lot of loans. Drove an Oldsmobile.

Seems like your roommate was probably getting merit aid since back then schools weren’t as interested in meeting full need with grants, as evidenced by your parents’ situation.

It was Ivy so no. His family just must have had low reported income and assets. That was the point. FAFSA can be gamed just as taxes can esp by business owners.

Hmm? Yes merit aid existed at Ivies pre 2010…

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Anonymous wrote:LOL. OP, they are for rich people, with a smattering of merit-based poor and middle-class famliies so the rich can feel like they also made it on merit.

Yet 2/3 of students are receiving need based aid. So “primarily” doesn’t seem to work. And as I mentioned international students (typically full pay) are 10 pct. Doesn’t leave a lot of full pay domestic students. And half of them may not qualify for aid but parents are struggling to pay for it, borrowing against 401ks etc

Idiots in bolded.

Lol, you think it's a bad idea to wipe out your retirement assets to buy your daughter a $320k Bachelors degree in Anthropology from Bryn Mawr?

What if the 320k anthro degree from Bryn Mawr is a 320k artificial intelligence degree from Carnegie Melon or a 320k quantitative economics degree from MIT? It's not just majors that you consider to be lightweight at SLACs that have become unaffordable

I would never borrow against a 401K, take out a HELOC, co-sign for a private student loan or take out Parent Plus loans. Not even for a CS degree from CMU.

Would you spend all your life savings outside of retirement on it?

DP.. if you have $80k/yr saved outside of retirement, then you are not hurting.