Anonymous wrote:Well… at Vassar… it’s literally called…. a more lenient grading system.

A student at Vassar, or most any American school for that matter, would have four or five chances to repair their GPA over the course of a semester- not just one chance. This is truly something to consider.

There are no quizzes, no grades for good attendance, no homework grades, no class participation grades- just two tests or papers per class.

Parents are wondering what St Andrews is like. It is different than American Universities in that regard. No need to be so snarky.

But this is true for every school outside the US. True at Oxford or LSE or Sciences Po. I mean, I think it’s fair to note that they’re two tests at st Andrews but that’s true at hundreds of schools.

Also .. I don’t know a single college that is grading for participation or attendance.

Let’s back up. What is college? These universities are educating kids and granting degrees. You leave college in the Uk (or the US) with an engineering degree. Or as a chemistry major. It’s meaningful. You degree should certify some mastery. And yes, that goes for history or English too. You fail the exams and colleges should NOT move forward with certifying that person. If they do, the degree is meaningless for all students. No serious college will let you fail and then say, oh but he came to class. It’s not preschool.

Yes - on this note- for parents considering the UK approach vs the American approach. Imagine for a moment weighing two American schools similar in prestige to St Andrews. Let’s say Colgate and Middlebury. Now imagine that Colgate is still Colgate, but that Middlebury adopts the St Andrews approach. Two tests per semester. No advisor-advisee programs. An overflow of students who are housed an hour away. Large lecture classes and professors who are often on strike. Known for their unforgiving “no hand holding” approach. Would you still choose Middlebury when you compare the two? Which college is offering the better product? Would that approach even fly in the States? What are you getting for your money? Of course kids need to be independent and responsible at any college, but what about the college as an institution providing a product? St Andrews is in a pretty town, and studying abroad is fun. But they offer fewer chances for students to succeed academically. Do any of their programs warrant this approach? Is it worth it?

Well… at Vassar… it’s literally called…. a more lenient grading system.

A student at Vassar, or most any American school for that matter, would have four or five chances to repair their GPA over the course of a semester- not just one chance. This is truly something to consider.

There are no quizzes, no grades for good attendance, no homework grades, no class participation grades- just two tests or papers per class.

Parents are wondering what St Andrews is like. It is different than American Universities in that regard. No need to be so snarky.

it's literally called, failing out of school.

well, at Vassar kids are kicked out for failing, even during Covid. you also lose any tuition already paid.

Failing a couple classes, because of covid fallout and online learning, at a similar caliber liberal arts college in the United States, would get you face to face meetings with a Dean and a second chance. Even this girl’s professors were advocating for her to stay, the administration just gives a blanket “no”. I’ve sent three of my own kids through different universities in the states. The tolerance for mistakes, and the goal of student success is more of a given here than over there.

failing a couple classes will get your kicked out of many colleges.

Here’s another example. I posted this on another chat as well. My friend’s daughter failed a couple classes during covid lockdown era. She needed to file an academic appeal to continue on at the University. Her appeal was denied. She just needed to retake a couple courses that would equal one extra semester. They sent her an email telling her that she was terminated. She was never allowed to meet anyone in person. They said while they were sympathetic to the challenges of the covid era, her request to retake those classes wasn’t “compelling”, and that they notified immigration and canceled her visa, and she needed to leave the country within 30 days. Think carefully about this for your student. This was not a troublesome student or a demanding entitled family. This was a young woman who was never in any kind of trouble in high school, reliable, mature, good grades. She had a very difficult time with lockdowns and succeeding with online learning as a brand new student. The University is not sensitive to extenuating circumstances AT ALL. Everything that’s not following protocol is a punishable offense, no in between. They expelled her! I don’t think it’s a case of naive Americans expecting gentler treatment, it’s that we expect professional treatment from educational professionals. Their strategy was to expel her and then go silent, they said her parents could get a lawyer but they refused to meet, talk, explain…. All she needed was an extra semester. All those hoops that family jumped through to get her there during covid, she was locked into her dorm room for a year then expelled when her grades were bad. They blamed her, and said she should have known enough to request a leave of absence at the time. But she didn’t even realize she was failing until after it was too late to request a leave of absence. They don’t care about that detail either. It’s a huge weakness on the part of the university- they either don’t have the ability to make changes to their policies, or they don’t care. They’re supposed to be #1 now, and I’m sure it’s great there as long as nothing unexpected happens. If it does, forget it.

I can see how some US students and parents would find the faculty and administration unresponsive and uncaring. I've lived in and attended schools in the UK, and I do think it's really just a cultural difference, not a school-specific failing. My child is a third year at St Andrews. Year 1, she had mold in her room. And since it was Covid, she was basically in her room all the time, and she got quite sick. The university took care of the mold once they knew about it, but it was such an impersonal response - the facilities team showed up and cleared up the mold and that was it. No one checked in on her. And she was like, huh. Okay. I guess I'd better get on with it. And she took herself to A&E and got the medicine she needed, and asked her professors for extensions, and just worked through it. She also has a disability, and receives accommodations. Year 2, she failed a test because of something related to the disability, but not specifically listed in her paperwork. Her advisor told very coldly and bluntly that the only thing to do was to drop the course entirely, because she was going to fail and it would be better not to put any more energy into that course when the outcome was predetermined. And no, they couldn't give her another test or disregard the grade, because they can't give accommodations for tests that have already happened. And she was upset, because it really wasn't her fault that she failed the test, but she had to admit that the advisor was right - it was better to focus entirely on getting high marks in her other course. Which she did, and now she's in honours. In both of these examples, the university did respond, but in a matter-of-fact way that felt, to Americans expecting sympathy, a bit uncaring. In the end it all worked out, and she is incredibly mature and capable and confident. And happy.

can you give me an example?

as background, my third is looking at St Andews. My first two went to SLACs. We had a housing issue with one that was never addressed (mold in vents and my kid has asthma, kid DIY'd the best he could). But other than that, neither I nor my kids had any contact with any admin. Part lucky, for sure, no health issues that couldn't be addressed during their breaks. Part of it was kids who just never reached out to an advisor etc.

Anyway, as a family who has never dealt with a college once we sent our kids away, I'm trying to parse out how big an issue this is.

We are not difficult parents, but our student is in a difficult situation there at the moment. The University has great kids from around the world and the clubs and societies are what make the school so appealing. In talking with some other NYC based families, the stories quickly pop up about how the actual University isn’t very well run. It’s somewhat reassuring to know we are not the only family who has been let down by this school, but it’s frustrating to see how things really work here. It’s a less expensive option than Universities in the US, but we are seeing you get what you pay for unfortunately. The administration is as responsive to student concerns as you would expect underpaid, unmotivated employees would be.

The town of St Andrews has become similar to a high end ski resort town- lots of absentee owners and high rents. There isn’t much available for students to rent because absentee owners would rather air bnb their homes to tourists given the choice. The University used to own a huge building on the golf course that was once a dorm, but unfortunately sold it. It’s a tempting University but the logistics are getting trickier and trickier. Wealthy families just buy properties for their students and flip them. As one does.

Canard!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the relevance is that no college really supports kids with medical issues. My niece had a medical issue that was botched at a T5 school - but then again, what do we expect really? Schools are not hospitals. There are medical services outside the campus walls. Even my sister told my niece, do not bother with a health center for REAL ISSUES. That's for condoms and flu vaccines.

So while I'm sympathetic to issues at St Andrews, I dont think it's unique to that one school.

[b]And yet, their new mission statement says they are. They also require students to use their student services center if they are hoping to get a medical excuse from a class. Parents are out of the loop a thousand miles away. GPAs head south quickly of you only have two grades for the entire semester. The American University system is more flexible and progressive.

Colleges like St. Andrews can say anything they want. Mission statements are worthless. You have to dig deep to find out the truth. The PP above who said you can't transfer back easily is spot on because there is no concept of a core currciulum at british schools like there is in America. we take it for granted that your kid is usually going to get a "liberal arts education or at least have a required foundational set of classes. That is not true in the British system. It's assumed that you already have that (and generally British students do have that by the time they reach this level) so you are studying only the subject you've proposed to read on from that point forward.

Keep hearing this bolded canard, and it is simply untrue. The last 2 years of high school, college-bound Brits take 3 subjects; US high school kids take 10. Most Brits don’t even take a foreign language past what would be US tenth grade — let alone four years of science in high school. Brits specialize in college because they have already specialized in high school — not because they have already done a core, but precisely because they have never done one.

Locals object to more university housing being built because the shortage keeps rents high. University would love to build more housing but has not been able to obtain the required planning permission.