Anonymous wrote:If we all just recognize this as a developer handout, rather than some legitimate government program, it's the only way it makes sense. Developers have always owned politicians in this area, and this is no different. One of the Arlington developers even got his 20-something daughter to write an article in some Washington magazine about how great MM would be. It was posted a while back in the Real Estate forum.

Who is handing what to developers? Please explain.

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Anonymous wrote:At the end of the day, no middle class families are moving into 4-plexes. Like everyone else, they want a SFH, not some lame townhouse with zero parking.

Adding density just brings in more young people, mostly those that used to live in DC but now want a bigger place to support WFH.

Yep.

And its fine to debate the merits of increasing the density, but its insulting to suggest families are going to be buying these 750k duplexes or condos. It will be young yuppies. Lets at least ne honest about that.

Middle-class families aren't going to move into unaffordable fourplexes, they are going to hold out for even more unaffordable detached houses?

But also those fourplexes are going to be loud because of all of the families living in them?

No... they are going to get their SFH where they can afford to! Like always.

No they don't always! What are you talking about? Many, many families around here live in townhouses or condos! Get out of your bubble.

Yes, yes they do.

But not at those price points.

I lived with my family in a townhouse too. It wasnt 750k.

The people, with families, paying 750k do not choose multi family.

PP here. In fact, I do live in a $800k townhouse in Arlington! Why? Because I couldn't afford a SFH in Arlington and yet I wanted to stay close in and didn't want to commute from an hour away. I certainly consider myself middle class. I don't know why this is unbelievable to you.

I'm glad that works for you.

I can't afford an 800k house, and if I could I would make a different choice, but good for you.

That is exactly the point. Someone is claiming that families won't buy missing middle housing because it will be so expensive that if they have that much money, they will choose a SFH farther away.

I'm here to say there are plenty of families like me who will pay that much to stay closer in! Everybody makes different choices.

No there is not. We lived as a family in a set of townhomes -- 40% were rich DINKs, 50% were group rental homes, 10% were families (ie us and a couple with a baby who were likely to move by the time the kid is walking).

Missing middle is all about increasing rental market supply.

It's weird you think your experience living in one particular townhouse community is representative of an entire demographic of middle income families.

I'm in Arlington and I can assure you that there are many kids here living in townhouses and condos in that middle range.

I’ve been through 3 complexes, and everyone the families leave by 4th grade of the oldest.

If we all just recognize this as a developer handout, rather than some legitimate government program, it's the only way it makes sense. Developers have always owned politicians in this area, and this is no different. One of the Arlington developers even got his 20-something daughter to write an article in some Washington magazine about how great MM would be. It was posted a while back in the Real Estate forum.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At the end of the day, no middle class families are moving into 4-plexes. Like everyone else, they want a SFH, not some lame townhouse with zero parking.

Adding density just brings in more young people, mostly those that used to live in DC but now want a bigger place to support WFH.

Yep.

And its fine to debate the merits of increasing the density, but its insulting to suggest families are going to be buying these 750k duplexes or condos. It will be young yuppies. Lets at least ne honest about that.

Middle-class families aren't going to move into unaffordable fourplexes, they are going to hold out for even more unaffordable detached houses?

But also those fourplexes are going to be loud because of all of the families living in them?

No... they are going to get their SFH where they can afford to! Like always.

No they don't always! What are you talking about? Many, many families around here live in townhouses or condos! Get out of your bubble.

Yes, yes they do.

But not at those price points.

I lived with my family in a townhouse too. It wasnt 750k.

The people, with families, paying 750k do not choose multi family.

PP here. In fact, I do live in a $800k townhouse in Arlington! Why? Because I couldn't afford a SFH in Arlington and yet I wanted to stay close in and didn't want to commute from an hour away. I certainly consider myself middle class. I don't know why this is unbelievable to you.

I'm glad that works for you.

I can't afford an 800k house, and if I could I would make a different choice, but good for you.

That is exactly the point. Someone is claiming that families won't buy missing middle housing because it will be so expensive that if they have that much money, they will choose a SFH farther away.

I'm here to say there are plenty of families like me who will pay that much to stay closer in! Everybody makes different choices.

No there is not. We lived as a family in a set of townhomes -- 40% were rich DINKs, 50% were group rental homes, 10% were families (ie us and a couple with a baby who were likely to move by the time the kid is walking).

Missing middle is all about increasing rental market supply.

Most households aren't families. To begin with, 28% of households are single-person households. Another 35% of households have 2 people. Among households that are families, only 40% have their own children under 18 living at home.

Is there something wrong with increasing rental market supply?

I thought a big part of missing middle was to help people priced out afford to buy in the county because the current housing is unaffordable to most buyers. Creating more landlords doesn’t necessarily seem like a worthwhile venture.

How about, afford to LIVE in the county? Creating more housing people can rent doesn't seem like a worthwhile venture?

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At the end of the day, no middle class families are moving into 4-plexes. Like everyone else, they want a SFH, not some lame townhouse with zero parking.

Adding density just brings in more young people, mostly those that used to live in DC but now want a bigger place to support WFH.

Yep.

And its fine to debate the merits of increasing the density, but its insulting to suggest families are going to be buying these 750k duplexes or condos. It will be young yuppies. Lets at least ne honest about that.

Middle-class families aren't going to move into unaffordable fourplexes, they are going to hold out for even more unaffordable detached houses?

But also those fourplexes are going to be loud because of all of the families living in them?

No... they are going to get their SFH where they can afford to! Like always.

No they don't always! What are you talking about? Many, many families around here live in townhouses or condos! Get out of your bubble.

Yes, yes they do.

But not at those price points.

I lived with my family in a townhouse too. It wasnt 750k.

The people, with families, paying 750k do not choose multi family.

PP here. In fact, I do live in a $800k townhouse in Arlington! Why? Because I couldn't afford a SFH in Arlington and yet I wanted to stay close in and didn't want to commute from an hour away. I certainly consider myself middle class. I don't know why this is unbelievable to you.

I'm glad that works for you.

I can't afford an 800k house, and if I could I would make a different choice, but good for you.

That is exactly the point. Someone is claiming that families won't buy missing middle housing because it will be so expensive that if they have that much money, they will choose a SFH farther away.

I'm here to say there are plenty of families like me who will pay that much to stay closer in! Everybody makes different choices.

No there is not. We lived as a family in a set of townhomes -- 40% were rich DINKs, 50% were group rental homes, 10% were families (ie us and a couple with a baby who were likely to move by the time the kid is walking).

Missing middle is all about increasing rental market supply.

Most households aren't families. To begin with, 28% of households are single-person households. Another 35% of households have 2 people. Among households that are families, only 40% have their own children under 18 living at home.

Is there something wrong with increasing rental market supply?

I thought a big part of missing middle was to help people priced out afford to buy in the county because the current housing is unaffordable to most buyers. Creating more landlords doesn’t necessarily seem like a worthwhile venture.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At the end of the day, no middle class families are moving into 4-plexes. Like everyone else, they want a SFH, not some lame townhouse with zero parking.

Adding density just brings in more young people, mostly those that used to live in DC but now want a bigger place to support WFH.

Yep.

And its fine to debate the merits of increasing the density, but its insulting to suggest families are going to be buying these 750k duplexes or condos. It will be young yuppies. Lets at least ne honest about that.

Middle-class families aren't going to move into unaffordable fourplexes, they are going to hold out for even more unaffordable detached houses?

But also those fourplexes are going to be loud because of all of the families living in them?

No... they are going to get their SFH where they can afford to! Like always.

No they don't always! What are you talking about? Many, many families around here live in townhouses or condos! Get out of your bubble.

Yes, yes they do.

But not at those price points.

I lived with my family in a townhouse too. It wasnt 750k.

The people, with families, paying 750k do not choose multi family.

PP here. In fact, I do live in a $800k townhouse in Arlington! Why? Because I couldn't afford a SFH in Arlington and yet I wanted to stay close in and didn't want to commute from an hour away. I certainly consider myself middle class. I don't know why this is unbelievable to you.

Hi! DP who lives in Arlington in a townhouse at a similar price point. This is what we could afford (we bought it for about half of what we could sell it for now). We wanted to live in Arlington and a townhouse was how we could make that happen.

I think there are plenty of people who would pay $750K for a townhouse in Arlington.

Aren’t the townhouses projected to go for over $1m (I think I read like $1.2 -1.5). It’s the smaller units that will be more like 600-700k.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At the end of the day, no middle class families are moving into 4-plexes. Like everyone else, they want a SFH, not some lame townhouse with zero parking.

Adding density just brings in more young people, mostly those that used to live in DC but now want a bigger place to support WFH.

Yep.

And its fine to debate the merits of increasing the density, but its insulting to suggest families are going to be buying these 750k duplexes or condos. It will be young yuppies. Lets at least ne honest about that.

Middle-class families aren't going to move into unaffordable fourplexes, they are going to hold out for even more unaffordable detached houses?

But also those fourplexes are going to be loud because of all of the families living in them?

No... they are going to get their SFH where they can afford to! Like always.

No they don't always! What are you talking about? Many, many families around here live in townhouses or condos! Get out of your bubble.

Yes, yes they do.

But not at those price points.

I lived with my family in a townhouse too. It wasnt 750k.

The people, with families, paying 750k do not choose multi family.

PP here. In fact, I do live in a $800k townhouse in Arlington! Why? Because I couldn't afford a SFH in Arlington and yet I wanted to stay close in and didn't want to commute from an hour away. I certainly consider myself middle class. I don't know why this is unbelievable to you.

I'm glad that works for you.

I can't afford an 800k house, and if I could I would make a different choice, but good for you.

That is exactly the point. Someone is claiming that families won't buy missing middle housing because it will be so expensive that if they have that much money, they will choose a SFH farther away.

I'm here to say there are plenty of families like me who will pay that much to stay closer in! Everybody makes different choices.

NP here. I think families will choose to live in duplex and triplexes. And I support this type of infill. But the 4, 6, 8 plexes are very likely to be purchased by a single (wealthy) owner who will rent out each unit. These larger buildings are not going to create meaningful home ownership opportunity. Because who else would essentially buy a condo in the middle of a suburban neighborhood? Most condo dwellers sacrifice on space for amenities like metro, bus, coffee shops, etc. This plan should at the very least have tapered density (I say this as someone within .3 mi of a metro station so my street would be okay for larger multi family). But there are a lot of parts of the county I’m just no envisioning this being good except for the already rich developers and landlords.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At the end of the day, no middle class families are moving into 4-plexes. Like everyone else, they want a SFH, not some lame townhouse with zero parking.

Adding density just brings in more young people, mostly those that used to live in DC but now want a bigger place to support WFH.

Yep.

And its fine to debate the merits of increasing the density, but its insulting to suggest families are going to be buying these 750k duplexes or condos. It will be young yuppies. Lets at least ne honest about that.

Middle-class families aren't going to move into unaffordable fourplexes, they are going to hold out for even more unaffordable detached houses?

But also those fourplexes are going to be loud because of all of the families living in them?

No... they are going to get their SFH where they can afford to! Like always.

No they don't always! What are you talking about? Many, many families around here live in townhouses or condos! Get out of your bubble.

Yes, yes they do.

But not at those price points.

I lived with my family in a townhouse too. It wasnt 750k.

The people, with families, paying 750k do not choose multi family.

PP here. In fact, I do live in a $800k townhouse in Arlington! Why? Because I couldn't afford a SFH in Arlington and yet I wanted to stay close in and didn't want to commute from an hour away. I certainly consider myself middle class. I don't know why this is unbelievable to you.

Hi! DP who lives in Arlington in a townhouse at a similar price point. This is what we could afford (we bought it for about half of what we could sell it for now). We wanted to live in Arlington and a townhouse was how we could make that happen.

I think there are plenty of people who would pay $750K for a townhouse in Arlington.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At the end of the day, no middle class families are moving into 4-plexes. Like everyone else, they want a SFH, not some lame townhouse with zero parking.

Adding density just brings in more young people, mostly those that used to live in DC but now want a bigger place to support WFH.

Yep.

And its fine to debate the merits of increasing the density, but its insulting to suggest families are going to be buying these 750k duplexes or condos. It will be young yuppies. Lets at least ne honest about that.

Middle-class families aren't going to move into unaffordable fourplexes, they are going to hold out for even more unaffordable detached houses?

But also those fourplexes are going to be loud because of all of the families living in them?

No... they are going to get their SFH where they can afford to! Like always.

No they don't always! What are you talking about? Many, many families around here live in townhouses or condos! Get out of your bubble.

Yes, yes they do.

But not at those price points.

I lived with my family in a townhouse too. It wasnt 750k.

The people, with families, paying 750k do not choose multi family.

PP here. In fact, I do live in a $800k townhouse in Arlington! Why? Because I couldn't afford a SFH in Arlington and yet I wanted to stay close in and didn't want to commute from an hour away. I certainly consider myself middle class. I don't know why this is unbelievable to you.

I'm glad that works for you.

I can't afford an 800k house, and if I could I would make a different choice, but good for you.

That is exactly the point. Someone is claiming that families won't buy missing middle housing because it will be so expensive that if they have that much money, they will choose a SFH farther away.

I'm here to say there are plenty of families like me who will pay that much to stay closer in! Everybody makes different choices.

No there is not. We lived as a family in a set of townhomes -- 40% were rich DINKs, 50% were group rental homes, 10% were families (ie us and a couple with a baby who were likely to move by the time the kid is walking).

Missing middle is all about increasing rental market supply.

It's weird you think your experience living in one particular townhouse community is representative of an entire demographic of middle income families.

I'm in Arlington and I can assure you that there are many kids here living in townhouses and condos in that middle range.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At the end of the day, no middle class families are moving into 4-plexes. Like everyone else, they want a SFH, not some lame townhouse with zero parking.

Adding density just brings in more young people, mostly those that used to live in DC but now want a bigger place to support WFH.

Yep.

And its fine to debate the merits of increasing the density, but its insulting to suggest families are going to be buying these 750k duplexes or condos. It will be young yuppies. Lets at least ne honest about that.

Middle-class families aren't going to move into unaffordable fourplexes, they are going to hold out for even more unaffordable detached houses?

But also those fourplexes are going to be loud because of all of the families living in them?

No... they are going to get their SFH where they can afford to! Like always.

No they don't always! What are you talking about? Many, many families around here live in townhouses or condos! Get out of your bubble.

Yes, yes they do.

But not at those price points.

I lived with my family in a townhouse too. It wasnt 750k.

The people, with families, paying 750k do not choose multi family.

PP here. In fact, I do live in a $800k townhouse in Arlington! Why? Because I couldn't afford a SFH in Arlington and yet I wanted to stay close in and didn't want to commute from an hour away. I certainly consider myself middle class. I don't know why this is unbelievable to you.

Likewise there will be someone else who can't afford to pay $800K for a townhouse but can afford to pay $600K for a nice townhouse condo that by nature is slightly smaller. Viola - that is what is meant by missing middle.

Don’t worry, they will drag down the property value of the surrounding properties so much they those condo loans will be upside down in no time…it’s the buyers after the flight of wealth that will get the real deals! This is not going to be an urbanized pocket with young people gentrifying…it’s going to be the effective end of nice neighborhoods.

Oh, those developers who are going to make huge profits building unaffordable luxury housing while also driving down property values and ruining nice neighborhoods!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At the end of the day, no middle class families are moving into 4-plexes. Like everyone else, they want a SFH, not some lame townhouse with zero parking.

Adding density just brings in more young people, mostly those that used to live in DC but now want a bigger place to support WFH.

Yep.

And its fine to debate the merits of increasing the density, but its insulting to suggest families are going to be buying these 750k duplexes or condos. It will be young yuppies. Lets at least ne honest about that.

Middle-class families aren't going to move into unaffordable fourplexes, they are going to hold out for even more unaffordable detached houses?

But also those fourplexes are going to be loud because of all of the families living in them?

No... they are going to get their SFH where they can afford to! Like always.

No they don't always! What are you talking about? Many, many families around here live in townhouses or condos! Get out of your bubble.

Yes, yes they do.

But not at those price points.

I lived with my family in a townhouse too. It wasnt 750k.

The people, with families, paying 750k do not choose multi family.

PP here. In fact, I do live in a $800k townhouse in Arlington! Why? Because I couldn't afford a SFH in Arlington and yet I wanted to stay close in and didn't want to commute from an hour away. I certainly consider myself middle class. I don't know why this is unbelievable to you.

Likewise there will be someone else who can't afford to pay $800K for a townhouse but can afford to pay $600K for a nice townhouse condo that by nature is slightly smaller. Viola - that is what is meant by missing middle.

Don’t worry, they will drag down the property value of the surrounding properties so much they those condo loans will be upside down in no time…it’s the buyers after the flight of wealth that will get the real deals! This is not going to be an urbanized pocket with young people gentrifying…it’s going to be the effective end of nice neighborhoods.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At the end of the day, no middle class families are moving into 4-plexes. Like everyone else, they want a SFH, not some lame townhouse with zero parking.

Adding density just brings in more young people, mostly those that used to live in DC but now want a bigger place to support WFH.

Yep.

And its fine to debate the merits of increasing the density, but its insulting to suggest families are going to be buying these 750k duplexes or condos. It will be young yuppies. Lets at least ne honest about that.

Middle-class families aren't going to move into unaffordable fourplexes, they are going to hold out for even more unaffordable detached houses?

But also those fourplexes are going to be loud because of all of the families living in them?

No... they are going to get their SFH where they can afford to! Like always.

No they don't always! What are you talking about? Many, many families around here live in townhouses or condos! Get out of your bubble.

Yes, yes they do.

But not at those price points.

I lived with my family in a townhouse too. It wasnt 750k.

The people, with families, paying 750k do not choose multi family.

PP here. In fact, I do live in a $800k townhouse in Arlington! Why? Because I couldn't afford a SFH in Arlington and yet I wanted to stay close in and didn't want to commute from an hour away. I certainly consider myself middle class. I don't know why this is unbelievable to you.

Likewise there will be someone else who can't afford to pay $800K for a townhouse but can afford to pay $600K for a nice townhouse condo that by nature is slightly smaller. Viola - that is what is meant by missing middle.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At the end of the day, no middle class families are moving into 4-plexes. Like everyone else, they want a SFH, not some lame townhouse with zero parking.

Adding density just brings in more young people, mostly those that used to live in DC but now want a bigger place to support WFH.

Yep.

And its fine to debate the merits of increasing the density, but its insulting to suggest families are going to be buying these 750k duplexes or condos. It will be young yuppies. Lets at least ne honest about that.

Middle-class families aren't going to move into unaffordable fourplexes, they are going to hold out for even more unaffordable detached houses?

But also those fourplexes are going to be loud because of all of the families living in them?

No... they are going to get their SFH where they can afford to! Like always.

No they don't always! What are you talking about? Many, many families around here live in townhouses or condos! Get out of your bubble.

Yes, yes they do.

But not at those price points.

I lived with my family in a townhouse too. It wasnt 750k.

The people, with families, paying 750k do not choose multi family.

PP here. In fact, I do live in a $800k townhouse in Arlington! Why? Because I couldn't afford a SFH in Arlington and yet I wanted to stay close in and didn't want to commute from an hour away. I certainly consider myself middle class. I don't know why this is unbelievable to you.

I'm glad that works for you.

I can't afford an 800k house, and if I could I would make a different choice, but good for you.

That is exactly the point. Someone is claiming that families won't buy missing middle housing because it will be so expensive that if they have that much money, they will choose a SFH farther away.

I'm here to say there are plenty of families like me who will pay that much to stay closer in! Everybody makes different choices.

No there is not. We lived as a family in a set of townhomes -- 40% were rich DINKs, 50% were group rental homes, 10% were families (ie us and a couple with a baby who were likely to move by the time the kid is walking).

Missing middle is all about increasing rental market supply.

Most households aren't families. To begin with, 28% of households are single-person households. Another 35% of households have 2 people. Among households that are families, only 40% have their own children under 18 living at home.

Is there something wrong with increasing rental market supply?

It's insulting to me you think single people want to live in shabby attached rental properties.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At the end of the day, no middle class families are moving into 4-plexes. Like everyone else, they want a SFH, not some lame townhouse with zero parking.

Adding density just brings in more young people, mostly those that used to live in DC but now want a bigger place to support WFH.

Yep.

And its fine to debate the merits of increasing the density, but its insulting to suggest families are going to be buying these 750k duplexes or condos. It will be young yuppies. Lets at least ne honest about that.

Middle-class families aren't going to move into unaffordable fourplexes, they are going to hold out for even more unaffordable detached houses?

But also those fourplexes are going to be loud because of all of the families living in them?

No... they are going to get their SFH where they can afford to! Like always.

No they don't always! What are you talking about? Many, many families around here live in townhouses or condos! Get out of your bubble.

Yes, yes they do.

But not at those price points.

I lived with my family in a townhouse too. It wasnt 750k.

The people, with families, paying 750k do not choose multi family.

PP here. In fact, I do live in a $800k townhouse in Arlington! Why? Because I couldn't afford a SFH in Arlington and yet I wanted to stay close in and didn't want to commute from an hour away. I certainly consider myself middle class. I don't know why this is unbelievable to you.

I'm glad that works for you.

I can't afford an 800k house, and if I could I would make a different choice, but good for you.

That is exactly the point. Someone is claiming that families won't buy missing middle housing because it will be so expensive that if they have that much money, they will choose a SFH farther away.

I'm here to say there are plenty of families like me who will pay that much to stay closer in! Everybody makes different choices.

No there is not. We lived as a family in a set of townhomes -- 40% were rich DINKs, 50% were group rental homes, 10% were families (ie us and a couple with a baby who were likely to move by the time the kid is walking).

Missing middle is all about increasing rental market supply.

Most households aren't families. To begin with, 28% of households are single-person households. Another 35% of households have 2 people. Among households that are families, only 40% have their own children under 18 living at home.

Is there something wrong with increasing rental market supply?

Arlington… the missing beauty.

An ugly hellscape of hardscrabble unplanned, uncoordinated domiciles.