What is McIntire?

“ You are looking at raw placement data without normalizing for undergrad population. If you do so:”

The same old bs about undergraduate population. I guarantee you that there is a much higher percentage of IL students looking for IB jobs than any public school. The vast majority of public school students have no interest in IB or Consulting.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:
Now in general you get BSBA for business program, but you speicalize in certain areas such as finance, accounting, marketing, management, etc.
I would stay away from areas like marketing or management too are too broad.

They won't let you to "stay away" from marketing or management. In the first two years, business students take university requirements and financial accounting. Then students must take required introductory courses in marketing, organizational behavior/management and perhaps "strategy", managerial accounting, manufacturing/supply chain, business economics, business law, statistics/econometrics, information systems, maybe entrepreneurship and maybe global mumbo jumbo. Academic departments compete for growth by requiring all these courses. Students can only specialize in the last year.

I'm laissez faire. Find the best college with the best opportunities to explore. If my daughters want to major in English at Princeton, or in-state, that is fine. If they want me to pay for hippie Bennington College, then we might have a problem (unless they have special needs). Connecticut College and George Washington also seem overpriced. If they like the Pepperdine because of the Malibu beach, then I will tell them to study hard and get into UCSD. But some kids gravitate to government and politics at American University. IMHO, a kid needs to be unusually focused at an early age to justify choosing a distinctly worse university for a specialized program.

Seriously, you take around 25% of courses in your major for a 4-year bachelors degree. Why compromise on the other 75%, when you can go to a better-fitting undergrad school, and then get a 1-year specialty masters? It seems obvious that a Brown/Northwestern/Columbia/Dartmouth economics bachelors degree plus a top masters degree will provide superior career connections and opportunities to a UVA/McIntire degree.

Brown/Northwestern/Columbia/Dartmouth are all obviously bigger targets than UVA McIntire, for the simply fact that three of them are Ivies (which matters in IB/Consulting) and the remaining one has a M7 MBA (so existing connections/recruiting pipelines).

The undergrad b-school vs. economics argument only holds for within the same school. For example, Notre Dame provides both an economics major and has an undergrad b-school. In this case, being in the undergrad b-school is far better than being an economics major.

Schools like Dartmouth, Brown, Northwestern are not really bigger target than UVA McIntire based on this
https://www.peakframeworks.com/post/ib-target-schools

Top three are business schools.
It's mixture of business schools and non-business.
They are just different options.

Let me know if anyone has other sources we can reference.
We need to talk at least with some sources rather than pulling stuff out of a$$

Columbia is based in Manhattan and Dartmouth has a major alumni presence on the Street.

Brown and Northwestern is better than UVA in IB, and there's no competition in Big 3 Consulting.
https://www.peakframeworks.com/post/consulting-target-schools

You are looking at raw placement data without normalizing for undergrad population. If you do so:

IB:
1. Columbia - 2.15%
2. Dartmouth - 2.22%
3. Brown - 0.93%
4. Northwestern - 0.87%
5. UVA - 0.63%

MBB:
1. Columbia - 1.14%
2. Dartmouth - 1.45%
3. Brown - 0.72%
4. Northwestern - 0.9%
5. UVA - 0.41%

There's no competition between Columbia/Dartmouth and UVA for IB. Brown and Northwestern have 38% ~ 47% better placements.

For MMB, no competition again between Columbia/Dartmouth and UVA. Brown and Northwestern again have much better placements at 75% ~ 122% better. No competition with Brown or Northwestern in MBB.

DP. You have fallen for the famous computer programming saying - Garbage In Garbage Out (GIGO).
You proved you can do arithmetic and compute percentages and identify greater and lesser! Beyond that your output is garbage because your input is garbage.
Just to point some flaws:
1. Your source for information (whatever it is) isn’t exhaustive. It simply didn’t count every person.
2. You don’t know how many students who got those jobs have familial connections, how many are athletes, how many are Affirmative Action,
3. To compute percentages, you must have used the total number of undergraduate students in graduating year for each academic institution. In which case, state flagship universities have much larger number of undergraduate students than expensive private colleges do. The denominator in your calculations should be the number of students applying for such jobs from each institution, and unless you pulled out of your stinky behind, you can’t have this number. And your number only stinks but it isn’t accurate.

Enough said. Education and degrees don’t result in smarts and critical thinking skills.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Now in general you get BSBA for business program, but you speicalize in certain areas such as finance, accounting, marketing, management, etc.
I would stay away from areas like marketing or management too are too broad.

They won't let you to "stay away" from marketing or management. In the first two years, business students take university requirements and financial accounting. Then students must take required introductory courses in marketing, organizational behavior/management and perhaps "strategy", managerial accounting, manufacturing/supply chain, business economics, business law, statistics/econometrics, information systems, maybe entrepreneurship and maybe global mumbo jumbo. Academic departments compete for growth by requiring all these courses. Students can only specialize in the last year.

I'm laissez faire. Find the best college with the best opportunities to explore. If my daughters want to major in English at Princeton, or in-state, that is fine. If they want me to pay for hippie Bennington College, then we might have a problem (unless they have special needs). Connecticut College and George Washington also seem overpriced. If they like the Pepperdine because of the Malibu beach, then I will tell them to study hard and get into UCSD. But some kids gravitate to government and politics at American University. IMHO, a kid needs to be unusually focused at an early age to justify choosing a distinctly worse university for a specialized program.

Seriously, you take around 25% of courses in your major for a 4-year bachelors degree. Why compromise on the other 75%, when you can go to a better-fitting undergrad school, and then get a 1-year specialty masters? It seems obvious that a Brown/Northwestern/Columbia/Dartmouth economics bachelors degree plus a top masters degree will provide superior career connections and opportunities to a UVA/McIntire degree.

Brown/Northwestern/Columbia/Dartmouth are all obviously bigger targets than UVA McIntire, for the simply fact that three of them are Ivies (which matters in IB/Consulting) and the remaining one has a M7 MBA (so existing connections/recruiting pipelines).

The undergrad b-school vs. economics argument only holds for within the same school. For example, Notre Dame provides both an economics major and has an undergrad b-school. In this case, being in the undergrad b-school is far better than being an economics major.

Schools like Dartmouth, Brown, Northwestern are not really bigger target than UVA McIntire based on this
https://www.peakframeworks.com/post/ib-target-schools

Top three are business schools.
It's mixture of business schools and non-business.
They are just different options.

Let me know if anyone has other sources we can reference.
We need to talk at least with some sources rather than pulling stuff out of a$$

Columbia is based in Manhattan and Dartmouth has a major alumni presence on the Street.

Brown and Northwestern is better than UVA in IB, and there's no competition in Big 3 Consulting.
https://www.peakframeworks.com/post/consulting-target-schools

You are looking at raw placement data without normalizing for undergrad population. If you do so:

IB:
1. Columbia - 2.15%
2. Dartmouth - 2.22%
3. Brown - 0.93%
4. Northwestern - 0.87%
5. UVA - 0.63%

MBB:
1. Columbia - 1.14%
2. Dartmouth - 1.45%
3. Brown - 0.72%
4. Northwestern - 0.9%
5. UVA - 0.41%

There's no competition between Columbia/Dartmouth and UVA for IB. Brown and Northwestern have 38% ~ 47% better placements.

For MMB, no competition again between Columbia/Dartmouth and UVA. Brown and Northwestern again have much better placements at 75% ~ 122% better. No competition with Brown or Northwestern in MBB.

Anonymous wrote:Eh, they usually get parked in sales.

Don't they make a lot of $$$ in sales?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Now in general you get BSBA for business program, but you speicalize in certain areas such as finance, accounting, marketing, management, etc.
I would stay away from areas like marketing or management too are too broad.

They won't let you to "stay away" from marketing or management. In the first two years, business students take university requirements and financial accounting. Then students must take required introductory courses in marketing, organizational behavior/management and perhaps "strategy", managerial accounting, manufacturing/supply chain, business economics, business law, statistics/econometrics, information systems, maybe entrepreneurship and maybe global mumbo jumbo. Academic departments compete for growth by requiring all these courses. Students can only specialize in the last year.

I'm laissez faire. Find the best college with the best opportunities to explore. If my daughters want to major in English at Princeton, or in-state, that is fine. If they want me to pay for hippie Bennington College, then we might have a problem (unless they have special needs). Connecticut College and George Washington also seem overpriced. If they like the Pepperdine because of the Malibu beach, then I will tell them to study hard and get into UCSD. But some kids gravitate to government and politics at American University. IMHO, a kid needs to be unusually focused at an early age to justify choosing a distinctly worse university for a specialized program.

Seriously, you take around 25% of courses in your major for a 4-year bachelors degree. Why compromise on the other 75%, when you can go to a better-fitting undergrad school, and then get a 1-year specialty masters? It seems obvious that a Brown/Northwestern/Columbia/Dartmouth economics bachelors degree plus a top masters degree will provide superior career connections and opportunities to a UVA/McIntire degree.

Brown/Northwestern/Columbia/Dartmouth are all obviously bigger targets than UVA McIntire, for the simply fact that three of them are Ivies (which matters in IB/Consulting) and the remaining one has a M7 MBA (so existing connections/recruiting pipelines).

The undergrad b-school vs. economics argument only holds for within the same school. For example, Notre Dame provides both an economics major and has an undergrad b-school. In this case, being in the undergrad b-school is far better than being an economics major.

Schools like Dartmouth, Brown, Northwestern are not really bigger target than UVA McIntire based on this
https://www.peakframeworks.com/post/ib-target-schools

Top three are business schools.
It's mixture of business schools and non-business.
They are just different options.

Let me know if anyone has other sources we can reference.
We need to talk at least with some sources rather than pulling stuff out of a$$

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
most Ivy League schools do not offer undergrad business.

business is a selective major at some schools, but not at others.

Anonymous wrote:
I don't think you are familiar with this area. UPenn, Cornell, Brown offer businsee curriculum, so that's 3 out of 8 ivies.

When schools have undergrad prorams, they are usually more selective and ... it's very hard to change into business program later.

I was a business professor at multiple Ivy League and state universities. Princeton lacks a business school, but has economics adjacent to operations research. I would choose that over any undergrad business program. I know an Emory professor whose kid wanted to go to Duke, even though Emory would have been free. Ouch!

If you only choose Penn or UVA for business, then you might be disappointed if you don't into Wharton or McIntire.

Professors often try to send their kids to selective liberal arts colleges.

This doesn't change the fact that at universities with undergraduate business schools, it's better to be in the b-school than not.

For Wall Street and big 3 consulting, students should look at how big of a target school that the school is over the US News ranking or whether it has undergraduate business or not. Princeton and Duke are much bigger target schools than Emory.

Hopkins and Vanderbilt are ranked higher than Georgetown and Notre Dame, yet the latter two are more coveted for recruitment.

If you're a D1 athlete, you have a much better chance of working in IB or high finance consulting regardless of the school you attended.

That's flat out incorrect.

How so?

How not so??

My IB division has so many ex-D1 athletes that I simply lost count.

My IB division has not many ex-D1 athletes. Some we have work in not so important back office duties.

Eh, they usually get parked in sales.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Now in general you get BSBA for business program, but you speicalize in certain areas such as finance, accounting, marketing, management, etc.
I would stay away from areas like marketing or management too are too broad.

They won't let you to "stay away" from marketing or management. In the first two years, business students take university requirements and financial accounting. Then students must take required introductory courses in marketing, organizational behavior/management and perhaps "strategy", managerial accounting, manufacturing/supply chain, business economics, business law, statistics/econometrics, information systems, maybe entrepreneurship and maybe global mumbo jumbo. Academic departments compete for growth by requiring all these courses. Students can only specialize in the last year.

I'm laissez faire. Find the best college with the best opportunities to explore. If my daughters want to major in English at Princeton, or in-state, that is fine. If they want me to pay for hippie Bennington College, then we might have a problem (unless they have special needs). Connecticut College and George Washington also seem overpriced. If they like the Pepperdine because of the Malibu beach, then I will tell them to study hard and get into UCSD. But some kids gravitate to government and politics at American University. IMHO, a kid needs to be unusually focused at an early age to justify choosing a distinctly worse university for a specialized program.

Seriously, you take around 25% of courses in your major for a 4-year bachelors degree. Why compromise on the other 75%, when you can go to a better-fitting undergrad school, and then get a 1-year specialty masters? It seems obvious that a Brown/Northwestern/Columbia/Dartmouth economics bachelors degree plus a top masters degree will provide superior career connections and opportunities to a UVA/McIntire degree.

For the last time, you don't need a masters or MBA wheatehr you go to Dartmouth Econ or UVA McIntire. Period.
You think about that later.

You get liberal arts education, and business related foundational classes, and then a specialized area.
Seems perfectly fine.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Now in general you get BSBA for business program, but you speicalize in certain areas such as finance, accounting, marketing, management, etc.
I would stay away from areas like marketing or management too are too broad.

They won't let you to "stay away" from marketing or management. In the first two years, business students take university requirements and financial accounting. Then students must take required introductory courses in marketing, organizational behavior/management and perhaps "strategy", managerial accounting, manufacturing/supply chain, business economics, business law, statistics/econometrics, information systems, maybe entrepreneurship and maybe global mumbo jumbo. Academic departments compete for growth by requiring all these courses. Students can only specialize in the last year.

I'm laissez faire. Find the best college with the best opportunities to explore. If my daughters want to major in English at Princeton, or in-state, that is fine. If they want me to pay for hippie Bennington College, then we might have a problem (unless they have special needs). Connecticut College and George Washington also seem overpriced. If they like the Pepperdine because of the Malibu beach, then I will tell them to study hard and get into UCSD. But some kids gravitate to government and politics at American University. IMHO, a kid needs to be unusually focused at an early age to justify choosing a distinctly worse university for a specialized program.

Seriously, you take around 25% of courses in your major for a 4-year bachelors degree. Why compromise on the other 75%, when you can go to a better-fitting undergrad school, and then get a 1-year specialty masters? It seems obvious that a Brown/Northwestern/Columbia/Dartmouth economics bachelors degree plus a top masters degree will provide superior career connections and opportunities to a UVA/McIntire degree.

Brown/Northwestern/Columbia/Dartmouth are all obviously bigger targets than UVA McIntire, for the simply fact that three of them are Ivies (which matters in IB/Consulting) and the remaining one has a M7 MBA (so existing connections/recruiting pipelines).

The undergrad b-school vs. economics argument only holds for within the same school. For example, Notre Dame provides both an economics major and has an undergrad b-school. In this case, being in the undergrad b-school is far better than being an economics major.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
most Ivy League schools do not offer undergrad business.

business is a selective major at some schools, but not at others.

Anonymous wrote:
I don't think you are familiar with this area. UPenn, Cornell, Brown offer businsee curriculum, so that's 3 out of 8 ivies.

When schools have undergrad prorams, they are usually more selective and ... it's very hard to change into business program later.

I was a business professor at multiple Ivy League and state universities. Princeton lacks a business school, but has economics adjacent to operations research. I would choose that over any undergrad business program. I know an Emory professor whose kid wanted to go to Duke, even though Emory would have been free. Ouch!

If you only choose Penn or UVA for business, then you might be disappointed if you don't into Wharton or McIntire.

Professors often try to send their kids to selective liberal arts colleges.

This doesn't change the fact that at universities with undergraduate business schools, it's better to be in the b-school than not.

For Wall Street and big 3 consulting, students should look at how big of a target school that the school is over the US News ranking or whether it has undergraduate business or not. Princeton and Duke are much bigger target schools than Emory.

Hopkins and Vanderbilt are ranked higher than Georgetown and Notre Dame, yet the latter two are more coveted for recruitment.

If you're a D1 athlete, you have a much better chance of working in IB or high finance consulting regardless of the school you attended.

That's flat out incorrect.

How so?

How not so??

My IB division has so many ex-D1 athletes that I simply lost count.

My IB division has not many ex-D1 athletes. Some we have work in not so important back office duties.

Anonymous wrote:
Now in general you get BSBA for business program, but you speicalize in certain areas such as finance, accounting, marketing, management, etc.
I would stay away from areas like marketing or management too are too broad.

They won't let you to "stay away" from marketing or management. In the first two years, business students take university requirements and financial accounting. Then students must take required introductory courses in marketing, organizational behavior/management and perhaps "strategy", managerial accounting, manufacturing/supply chain, business economics, business law, statistics/econometrics, information systems, maybe entrepreneurship and maybe global mumbo jumbo. Academic departments compete for growth by requiring all these courses. Students can only specialize in the last year.

I'm laissez faire. Find the best college with the best opportunities to explore. If my daughters want to major in English at Princeton, or in-state, that is fine. If they want me to pay for hippie Bennington College, then we might have a problem (unless they have special needs). Connecticut College and George Washington also seem overpriced. If they like the Pepperdine because of the Malibu beach, then I will tell them to study hard and get into UCSD. But some kids gravitate to government and politics at American University. IMHO, a kid needs to be unusually focused at an early age to justify choosing a distinctly worse university for a specialized program.

Seriously, you take around 25% of courses in your major for a 4-year bachelors degree. Why compromise on the other 75%, when you can go to a better-fitting undergrad school, and then get a 1-year specialty masters? It seems obvious that a Brown/Northwestern/Columbia/Dartmouth economics bachelors degree plus a top masters degree will provide superior career connections and opportunities to a UVA/McIntire degree.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
most Ivy League schools do not offer undergrad business.

business is a selective major at some schools, but not at others.

Anonymous wrote:
I don't think you are familiar with this area. UPenn, Cornell, Brown offer businsee curriculum, so that's 3 out of 8 ivies.

When schools have undergrad prorams, they are usually more selective and ... it's very hard to change into business program later.

I was a business professor at multiple Ivy League and state universities. Princeton lacks a business school, but has economics adjacent to operations research. I would choose that over any undergrad business program. I know an Emory professor whose kid wanted to go to Duke, even though Emory would have been free. Ouch!

If you only choose Penn or UVA for business, then you might be disappointed if you don't into Wharton or McIntire.

Professors often try to send their kids to selective liberal arts colleges.

This doesn't change the fact that at universities with undergraduate business schools, it's better to be in the b-school than not.

For Wall Street and big 3 consulting, students should look at how big of a target school that the school is over the US News ranking or whether it has undergraduate business or not. Princeton and Duke are much bigger target schools than Emory.

Hopkins and Vanderbilt are ranked higher than Georgetown and Notre Dame, yet the latter two are more coveted for recruitment.

If you're a D1 athlete, you have a much better chance of working in IB or high finance consulting regardless of the school you attended.

That's flat out incorrect.

How so?

How not so??

My IB division has so many ex-D1 athletes that I simply lost count.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
most Ivy League schools do not offer undergrad business.

business is a selective major at some schools, but not at others.

Anonymous wrote:
I don't think you are familiar with this area. UPenn, Cornell, Brown offer businsee curriculum, so that's 3 out of 8 ivies.

When schools have undergrad prorams, they are usually more selective and ... it's very hard to change into business program later.

I was a business professor at multiple Ivy League and state universities. Princeton lacks a business school, but has economics adjacent to operations research. I would choose that over any undergrad business program. I know an Emory professor whose kid wanted to go to Duke, even though Emory would have been free. Ouch!

If you only choose Penn or UVA for business, then you might be disappointed if you don't into Wharton or McIntire.

Professors often try to send their kids to selective liberal arts colleges.

This doesn't change the fact that at universities with undergraduate business schools, it's better to be in the b-school than not.

For Wall Street and big 3 consulting, students should look at how big of a target school that the school is over the US News ranking or whether it has undergraduate business or not. Princeton and Duke are much bigger target schools than Emory.

Hopkins and Vanderbilt are ranked higher than Georgetown and Notre Dame, yet the latter two are more coveted for recruitment.

If you're a D1 athlete, you have a much better chance of working in IB or high finance consulting regardless of the school you attended.

That's flat out incorrect.

How so?

How not so??

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
most Ivy League schools do not offer undergrad business.

business is a selective major at some schools, but not at others.

Anonymous wrote:
I don't think you are familiar with this area. UPenn, Cornell, Brown offer businsee curriculum, so that's 3 out of 8 ivies.

When schools have undergrad prorams, they are usually more selective and ... it's very hard to change into business program later.

I was a business professor at multiple Ivy League and state universities. Princeton lacks a business school, but has economics adjacent to operations research. I would choose that over any undergrad business program. I know an Emory professor whose kid wanted to go to Duke, even though Emory would have been free. Ouch!

If you only choose Penn or UVA for business, then you might be disappointed if you don't into Wharton or McIntire.

Professors often try to send their kids to selective liberal arts colleges.

This doesn't change the fact that at universities with undergraduate business schools, it's better to be in the b-school than not.

For Wall Street and big 3 consulting, students should look at how big of a target school that the school is over the US News ranking or whether it has undergraduate business or not. Princeton and Duke are much bigger target schools than Emory.

Hopkins and Vanderbilt are ranked higher than Georgetown and Notre Dame, yet the latter two are more coveted for recruitment.

If you're a D1 athlete, you have a much better chance of working in IB or high finance consulting regardless of the school you attended.

That's flat out incorrect.

How so?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are people bringing up MBA?
That's something you would consider later after you have real careers.

I'm the business professor who brought it up, because OP was discussing choosing UVA/McIntire over "Top 15" schools without business majors. Instead of basing four years of undergrad on an uncertain business career, you could choose the best undergrad school and then later get an M.B.A. and a "real career".

Historically, M.B.A.'s were rare and more technical, with many engineering and economics majors. But the number of degrees has tripled since the 1980's, and the curriculum has been watered down. Spreadsheets and statistics on personal computers were a big deal in the 1980's. But high school students have laptops today.

As a professor, here is what is galling. Some say M.B.A.'s are "quant", which is usually wrong. Others say one-year masters are not quant, except for schools like Princeton. But if you can get into a "Top 15" college, then you should be able to get into a top quant program later. People are not discussing what you actually learn in the classroom to support a business or finance career. This suggests a myopic thought that McIntire business "connections" will get you an entry job and career for life. I would prefer the connections from Northwestern/Dartmouth/Brown/Cornell/Columbia, even without an business degree. If you can't afford a fifth year for a masters degree, then in-state tuition at UVA merits consideration.

Your kid might not even like business. Or, your kid can choose a different major and get a masters degree later. Choose McIntire because you prefer UVA, not because it guarantees a business career for life.

I think your mindset never evolved since 1970s.
You get real and one of the best 'real career' with McIntire degreee as well as
No need to invest more time and money in the MBA or Masters unless you have some special intestea or goal later after the 'real career'
You actully learn real stuff at the work.

Sure Econ or STEM at Northwestern/Dartmouth/Brown/Cornell/Columbia are great (one caveat is that Cornell Dyson is also 'Business Program' that you don't like)
They are just equally target schools just like the top business programs at UPenn Wharton, MIT Sloan, Berkeley Haas, Georgetown Mcdogh.
However in terms of UVA McIntire vs ECON Northwestern/Dartmouth/Brown/Cornell/Columbia, it's a valid opion, but still they are just different options.
MBA has no place in this discussion.

You also contradict yourself. You sounds like advocating to 'liberal art' education, but sounds like not a fan of the real liberal arts majors like history, anthropology, political science, etc. (execpt for econ). Sure CS, Math, Physics, are part of 'liberal arts' but you specifically like STEM. I agree with you on this LOL.
However, business degree at target schools are the next best thing if not equally the best thing.

Nlow in general you get BSBA for business program, but you speicalize in certain areas such as finance, accounting, marketing, management, etc.
I would stay away from areas like marketing or management too are too broad.
Not everyone is STEM type, my recommendation is Accouintg, Finance, MIS, or Business analytics if in business program.
Of course nothing is guranteed. McIntire is one of the biggest reasons to consider UVA beside of instate status.