The relationship is dying. OP you have so much pent up anger that I can’t imagine the next Holiday will go smoothly. It’s not the job of a friend ship to provide a twice a year vacation for even your best friend. The kids don’t need to be exposed to this kind of “ friendship”

OP keeps bringing more and more things into this. Not sure I believe you. Plus if anyone spoke to my kids like that I would definitely have addressed it then and there.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Flo sounds like she has a personality disorder, not that this is any excuse to be abusive. And I'm sure Hank knows she is horrible.

I'd just have your husband say, look, the family trips haven't been run and relaxing for you guys recently, how about just a dads and kids trip? He can word it in whatever way he thinks will be the least upsetting. You are not obligated to invite anyone to your home and you can always set the parameters for what you will and won't go for.

I definitely agree she has a personality disorder. I don’t think it is just cultural. I also think she’s depressed. She doesn’t seem to take a lot of joy in anything and that was definitely not the case before. She was always a fussy combative person, but since 2020 she’s been extra ragey.

I think Covid did a number on a lot of people. I had a friend who was always a bit *extra* but we had some good times together and I could just ignore the occasional rant (although alienating people was sort of a specialty of hers). During Covid the anger became permanent and pervasive. My DH and I both tried staying away from topics that would set her off, but it seemed everything set her off. When changing the subject didn’t work, we tried being very direct — “we’re not going to talk about this.” Finally, we just agreed that we couldn’t communicate with her anymore. I am still sad about it, but it was nothing but anger and angst, and we just don’t need that in our lives. I agree that you should let your DH spend time with Hank, but you don’t need to subject yourself or your children to that much rage.

Op here: Really and truly this is it. She was fun Flo for years! I loved her and she was definitely a good friend. We would text every day! But during covid it was clear she fell into a deep depression and her rages (which were sorta funny before) became dark. The yelling which didn’t exist before became loud and dark. Italy was hit hard during the pandemic, especially the early part, and I know she spent months worrying about her family. I don’t think she’s come out of this depression. DH spends a lot of time with Hank one on one (they do sports together), and I wonder if maybe we can quietly distance ourselves while letting them continue their friendship.

I think I’m just sad that our friendship the way it was is over I guess.

I think that in this case you have a conversation and say "I'm worried about you. To me it seems like you are very depressed and acting out in anger. I care about you but your rage makes it hard to be around you." She may drop you, but you owe it to her to name the issue.

Ugh this will be uncomfortable.

Op

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Flo sounds like she has a personality disorder, not that this is any excuse to be abusive. And I'm sure Hank knows she is horrible.

I'd just have your husband say, look, the family trips haven't been run and relaxing for you guys recently, how about just a dads and kids trip? He can word it in whatever way he thinks will be the least upsetting. You are not obligated to invite anyone to your home and you can always set the parameters for what you will and won't go for.

I definitely agree she has a personality disorder. I don’t think it is just cultural. I also think she’s depressed. She doesn’t seem to take a lot of joy in anything and that was definitely not the case before. She was always a fussy combative person, but since 2020 she’s been extra ragey.

I think Covid did a number on a lot of people. I had a friend who was always a bit *extra* but we had some good times together and I could just ignore the occasional rant (although alienating people was sort of a specialty of hers). During Covid the anger became permanent and pervasive. My DH and I both tried staying away from topics that would set her off, but it seemed everything set her off. When changing the subject didn’t work, we tried being very direct — “we’re not going to talk about this.” Finally, we just agreed that we couldn’t communicate with her anymore. I am still sad about it, but it was nothing but anger and angst, and we just don’t need that in our lives. I agree that you should let your DH spend time with Hank, but you don’t need to subject yourself or your children to that much rage.

Op here: Really and truly this is it. She was fun Flo for years! I loved her and she was definitely a good friend. We would text every day! But during covid it was clear she fell into a deep depression and her rages (which were sorta funny before) became dark. The yelling which didn’t exist before became loud and dark. Italy was hit hard during the pandemic, especially the early part, and I know she spent months worrying about her family. I don’t think she’s come out of this depression. DH spends a lot of time with Hank one on one (they do sports together), and I wonder if maybe we can quietly distance ourselves while letting them continue their friendship.

I think I’m just sad that our friendship the way it was is over I guess.

I think that in this case you have a conversation and say "I'm worried about you. To me it seems like you are very depressed and acting out in anger. I care about you but your rage makes it hard to be around you." She may drop you, but you owe it to her to name the issue.

Anonymous wrote:This whole scenario seems false.

Ok there are other threads that you can visit.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Flo sounds like she has a personality disorder, not that this is any excuse to be abusive. And I'm sure Hank knows she is horrible.

I'd just have your husband say, look, the family trips haven't been run and relaxing for you guys recently, how about just a dads and kids trip? He can word it in whatever way he thinks will be the least upsetting. You are not obligated to invite anyone to your home and you can always set the parameters for what you will and won't go for.

I definitely agree she has a personality disorder. I don’t think it is just cultural. I also think she’s depressed. She doesn’t seem to take a lot of joy in anything and that was definitely not the case before. She was always a fussy combative person, but since 2020 she’s been extra ragey.

I think Covid did a number on a lot of people. I had a friend who was always a bit *extra* but we had some good times together and I could just ignore the occasional rant (although alienating people was sort of a specialty of hers). During Covid the anger became permanent and pervasive. My DH and I both tried staying away from topics that would set her off, but it seemed everything set her off. When changing the subject didn’t work, we tried being very direct — “we’re not going to talk about this.” Finally, we just agreed that we couldn’t communicate with her anymore. I am still sad about it, but it was nothing but anger and angst, and we just don’t need that in our lives. I agree that you should let your DH spend time with Hank, but you don’t need to subject yourself or your children to that much rage.

Op here: Really and truly this is it. She was fun Flo for years! I loved her and she was definitely a good friend. We would text every day! But during covid it was clear she fell into a deep depression and her rages (which were sorta funny before) became dark. The yelling which didn’t exist before became loud and dark. Italy was hit hard during the pandemic, especially the early part, and I know she spent months worrying about her family. I don’t think she’s come out of this depression. DH spends a lot of time with Hank one on one (they do sports together), and I wonder if maybe we can quietly distance ourselves while letting them continue their friendship.

I think I’m just sad that our friendship the way it was is over I guess.

OP, you seem to have attracted a troll or trolls.

BUT, after this update I am wondering why you haven't talked directly to her, all the other stuff aside. There are ways to bring up concerns without attacking. The friendship is on the brink as it is. Nothing to lose by addressing that you've observed she seems stressed after the last couple of years.

Thank you for this thoughtful response. I am honestly just still angry about Labor Day. Hank asked my husband about MLK day and I was so mad about it. I could not believe that he thought the Labor Day trip went well enough to casually bring it up like nothing happened. I remember thinking, did he forget that his wife flew into a rage because I made breakfast for my kids and her kids at 9am?!?

Did he not remember the flip outs over footwear? The flip out over bagged salad? The rage-a-thon over frozen pizza? I mean it’s my house- if you really don’t like what I do keep it to yourself! Also did he not remember how she flew off the handle and we had to listen to them fighting all afternoon one day?

I am still mad about it! I don’t expect an apology, but maybe addressing that past recent behavior hasn’t been good would mean a lot to me.

And I think if I bring it up she’ll fly into a rage with me or take it out on Hank. When Hank calmly tried to remind her that the kids would survive if the way wore their deck sandals into the house, she lost her mind at him. It was awful to see. I don’t see how she will take, “is everything ok? You seen extra angry lately”. Plus as she told me, divorce is on the table. I don’t want to cause another fight honestly.

This whole scenario seems false.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Flo sounds like she has a personality disorder, not that this is any excuse to be abusive. And I'm sure Hank knows she is horrible.

I'd just have your husband say, look, the family trips haven't been run and relaxing for you guys recently, how about just a dads and kids trip? He can word it in whatever way he thinks will be the least upsetting. You are not obligated to invite anyone to your home and you can always set the parameters for what you will and won't go for.

I definitely agree she has a personality disorder. I don’t think it is just cultural. I also think she’s depressed. She doesn’t seem to take a lot of joy in anything and that was definitely not the case before. She was always a fussy combative person, but since 2020 she’s been extra ragey.

I think Covid did a number on a lot of people. I had a friend who was always a bit *extra* but we had some good times together and I could just ignore the occasional rant (although alienating people was sort of a specialty of hers). During Covid the anger became permanent and pervasive. My DH and I both tried staying away from topics that would set her off, but it seemed everything set her off. When changing the subject didn’t work, we tried being very direct — “we’re not going to talk about this.” Finally, we just agreed that we couldn’t communicate with her anymore. I am still sad about it, but it was nothing but anger and angst, and we just don’t need that in our lives. I agree that you should let your DH spend time with Hank, but you don’t need to subject yourself or your children to that much rage.

Op here: Really and truly this is it. She was fun Flo for years! I loved her and she was definitely a good friend. We would text every day! But during covid it was clear she fell into a deep depression and her rages (which were sorta funny before) became dark. The yelling which didn’t exist before became loud and dark. Italy was hit hard during the pandemic, especially the early part, and I know she spent months worrying about her family. I don’t think she’s come out of this depression. DH spends a lot of time with Hank one on one (they do sports together), and I wonder if maybe we can quietly distance ourselves while letting them continue their friendship.

I think I’m just sad that our friendship the way it was is over I guess.

So the most obvious thing here is that you start a conversation with her. That you miss her and that you’re concerned. As a friend would.

OP here-

I think if she had not violated the rules of friendship by exploding every time something small didn’t go her way, I would have done this already.

OP I'm not sure exactly what this means around violated the rules of friendship, though I completely understand why you would be upset and hurt about what happened. But if you were that close that you used to text every day I really think the only kind and fair course of action is to check in on her. Your husband to check in on Hank and frank and honest about the concern. and you to check in on Flo, and have an honest conversation about your experience, what you witnessed, that her kids seem scared and because you know her and love her you know that something must be going on - that this isn't who she is, so you are worried about her and are here if you needs help finding support. That you understand how hard things were during the pandemic and we're all needing help to get out of it in some ways.

Be the friend you would want to have if you were deeply depressed and becoming a person your friends and family barely recognized. This might not save the relationship because she may not be ready to see it all or get help, but it is putting your best effort forward.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks so much for the ideas. I guess I could manufacture a reason why wives couldn’t attend except I realllllllly like going out there.

I showed my husband the thread and he said I forgot to mention that Hank has said on many occasions that his wife’s solo trips to Italy were the reason they could stay married. Hank takes numerous boys trips throughout the year as well.

Husband also says Hank is drinking a lot more than he used to. Wonders if that might be the source of Flo’s rages- although she sure drinks a lot too.

Why can't you just go to the lake house without Hank's family? Does he expect to be included every time? Your H needs to be honest with him and let him know that Flo is making you guys really uncomfortable and you all still want to see him, but not like it's always been.

Hank could be drinking more as a coping mechanism. Who knows which came first. The drinking or the marital issues.

Hank has been invited every Labor Day since we basically bought the house. He brought Flo back when they were first married (when she used to be fun Flo). All the kids have been there their whole lives.

The same goes for MLK weekend. We all go, have a snowball fight battle, and have the best time (minus Flo). In years past she was always wound a bit tight and would complain about the kids not wearing the right slippers (I’m telling you, the slippers are so important to her) or of the pizza if we ordered some food. We did take a break for 2020 and 2021 due to covid concerns and this year found her to be totally intolerable. The nagging and shouting and temper tantrums were always there but either hidden or not as explosive. Now she is openly fighting and screaming at Hank and the kids. And as I mentioned, even starting to complain about our behavior as well. I made a bagged salad and she wouldn’t touch it as “bagged salads contain diseases”. She was mad that I fed her kids crappy frozen Walmart pizza while she was cooking some elaborate dinner that was running late. The kids were super hungry and I didn't want them to wait until 10pm to have dinner!

Also her kids love coming to the lake. They love it. They talk about mlk weekend constantly. I felt terrible in 2020 and 2021 bc they weren’t with us. I feel sick at taking it from the kids.

Sorry, but that's just rude. You don't serve PIZZA from WALMART while an ITALIAN is making YOUR DINNER. You ask if you can help out with the cooking to speed things along, you feed them a snack. But to feed them pizza from Walmart instead of waiting for the elaborate meal is a total insult. Any Italian would be pissed. Italians are all about food. That's her thing. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen!

this is not just an Italian thing. This is an any person who is going to great lengths to cook for you thing. I do think that it is incredibly strange that OP would actively serve an alternate dinner while primary dinner is being cooked. I would be pissed, and I'm not Italian.

The only person that would say this either has never suffered through this with children or is this person.

My mom is a good cook and likes to cook nice meals. But she doesn't do that very often since it's usually her and my dad. So she underestimates how long it will take and dinner is routinely at 9pm or later. When you have little kids that are hungry and have been going all day at the pool, etc. it is miserable. I've fed my kids and put them to bed in order to enjoy dinner in peace. It's not an insult. It's a fact of life.

Anonymous wrote:OP, if your DH says anything to Hank about this, basically he is asking him to choose between hanging out with your family or siding with his wife.

If he is basically afraid of her (leaving him, taking the kids, fleeing to Italy) he isn't going to risk that just to spend lake time with you all, no matter how much he and his kids enjoy it.

Also, if your DH talks to him to say he's worried, Flo is abusive, Hank is drinking too much, etc., I almost guarantee you Hank is gone.

I think the best you can do is slowly pulling away, and DH just does guy night in town with Hank.

I think you’re 100% right. Hank will never choose us all over her. Never.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Flo sounds like she has a personality disorder, not that this is any excuse to be abusive. And I'm sure Hank knows she is horrible.

I'd just have your husband say, look, the family trips haven't been run and relaxing for you guys recently, how about just a dads and kids trip? He can word it in whatever way he thinks will be the least upsetting. You are not obligated to invite anyone to your home and you can always set the parameters for what you will and won't go for.

I definitely agree she has a personality disorder. I don’t think it is just cultural. I also think she’s depressed. She doesn’t seem to take a lot of joy in anything and that was definitely not the case before. She was always a fussy combative person, but since 2020 she’s been extra ragey.

I think Covid did a number on a lot of people. I had a friend who was always a bit *extra* but we had some good times together and I could just ignore the occasional rant (although alienating people was sort of a specialty of hers). During Covid the anger became permanent and pervasive. My DH and I both tried staying away from topics that would set her off, but it seemed everything set her off. When changing the subject didn’t work, we tried being very direct — “we’re not going to talk about this.” Finally, we just agreed that we couldn’t communicate with her anymore. I am still sad about it, but it was nothing but anger and angst, and we just don’t need that in our lives. I agree that you should let your DH spend time with Hank, but you don’t need to subject yourself or your children to that much rage.

Op here: Really and truly this is it. She was fun Flo for years! I loved her and she was definitely a good friend. We would text every day! But during covid it was clear she fell into a deep depression and her rages (which were sorta funny before) became dark. The yelling which didn’t exist before became loud and dark. Italy was hit hard during the pandemic, especially the early part, and I know she spent months worrying about her family. I don’t think she’s come out of this depression. DH spends a lot of time with Hank one on one (they do sports together), and I wonder if maybe we can quietly distance ourselves while letting them continue their friendship.

I think I’m just sad that our friendship the way it was is over I guess.

OP, you seem to have attracted a troll or trolls.

BUT, after this update I am wondering why you haven't talked directly to her, all the other stuff aside. There are ways to bring up concerns without attacking. The friendship is on the brink as it is. Nothing to lose by addressing that you've observed she seems stressed after the last couple of years.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Flo sounds like she has a personality disorder, not that this is any excuse to be abusive. And I'm sure Hank knows she is horrible.

I'd just have your husband say, look, the family trips haven't been run and relaxing for you guys recently, how about just a dads and kids trip? He can word it in whatever way he thinks will be the least upsetting. You are not obligated to invite anyone to your home and you can always set the parameters for what you will and won't go for.

I definitely agree she has a personality disorder. I don’t think it is just cultural. I also think she’s depressed. She doesn’t seem to take a lot of joy in anything and that was definitely not the case before. She was always a fussy combative person, but since 2020 she’s been extra ragey.

I think Covid did a number on a lot of people. I had a friend who was always a bit *extra* but we had some good times together and I could just ignore the occasional rant (although alienating people was sort of a specialty of hers). During Covid the anger became permanent and pervasive. My DH and I both tried staying away from topics that would set her off, but it seemed everything set her off. When changing the subject didn’t work, we tried being very direct — “we’re not going to talk about this.” Finally, we just agreed that we couldn’t communicate with her anymore. I am still sad about it, but it was nothing but anger and angst, and we just don’t need that in our lives. I agree that you should let your DH spend time with Hank, but you don’t need to subject yourself or your children to that much rage.

Op here: Really and truly this is it. She was fun Flo for years! I loved her and she was definitely a good friend. We would text every day! But during covid it was clear she fell into a deep depression and her rages (which were sorta funny before) became dark. The yelling which didn’t exist before became loud and dark. Italy was hit hard during the pandemic, especially the early part, and I know she spent months worrying about her family. I don’t think she’s come out of this depression. DH spends a lot of time with Hank one on one (they do sports together), and I wonder if maybe we can quietly distance ourselves while letting them continue their friendship.

I think I’m just sad that our friendship the way it was is over I guess.

So the most obvious thing here is that you start a conversation with her. That you miss her and that you’re concerned. As a friend would.

OP here-

I think if she had not violated the rules of friendship by exploding every time something small didn’t go her way, I would have done this already.

Frame it like we're so sorry we upset Flo and clearly we're not meeting her expectations as hosts.

"Oh, I'm sorry that won't work out this summer, or going forward. Janie upset flow so much by sharing watermelon with Katie outside in their bathing suits--we're sorry, Janie did not know that would upset Flo to the point of getting yelled at. We're also so sorry that we do awful things like make breakfast when Flo is not hungry. We're just not able to be good hosts to the level that Flo expects, apparently, so unfortunately these visits can't continue."

That way you never said Flo is intolerable, but the message comes across loud and clear.

Anonymous wrote:are you a good host? It sounds like there is something missing. Maybe she feels unwelcome and it’s provoked anxiety.

Im not sure? I don’t drink much and go to bed early. I do all the cleaning without complaint. I’m happy to make all meals or split them if needed. But I do shop at Walmart (it’s the closest!). Flo doesn’t clean, Hank does all the kids stuff, but takes over the kitchen. Again this is fine but don’t rage and get angry and scream if something isn’t to your liking. Again- three different pairs of footwear to get from the outside to the bedrooms!

I think you are a bad guest if you insist on cooking all day, causing everyone else to handle all the kid stuff and chores

Get mad constantly. She’s mad because I didn’t insist on her children wearing the deck shoes on the desk and the house slippers in the house. Her slipper rules are stupid and I was frankly a little mad that she insisted the socks would then be thrown out. My floors are clean! I have kids so I clean every day!

Try to control everything! I get that she can wait until almost 11 to have dinner and she wasn’t hungry at 9 for breakfast, but I’m not going to let my kids suffer because an adult woman is hung over and has an elaborate idea of what she wants to eat. Kids don’t mind bagged salad, crappy pizza and frozen waffles!

Berate and abuse your spouse. Not okay. I agree with another poster that we’d probably call the police if Hank treated her like this. Then again, Hank is a huge guy and makes way more money than her.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Flo sounds like she has a personality disorder, not that this is any excuse to be abusive. And I'm sure Hank knows she is horrible.

I'd just have your husband say, look, the family trips haven't been run and relaxing for you guys recently, how about just a dads and kids trip? He can word it in whatever way he thinks will be the least upsetting. You are not obligated to invite anyone to your home and you can always set the parameters for what you will and won't go for.

I definitely agree she has a personality disorder. I don’t think it is just cultural. I also think she’s depressed. She doesn’t seem to take a lot of joy in anything and that was definitely not the case before. She was always a fussy combative person, but since 2020 she’s been extra ragey.

I think Covid did a number on a lot of people. I had a friend who was always a bit *extra* but we had some good times together and I could just ignore the occasional rant (although alienating people was sort of a specialty of hers). During Covid the anger became permanent and pervasive. My DH and I both tried staying away from topics that would set her off, but it seemed everything set her off. When changing the subject didn’t work, we tried being very direct — “we’re not going to talk about this.” Finally, we just agreed that we couldn’t communicate with her anymore. I am still sad about it, but it was nothing but anger and angst, and we just don’t need that in our lives. I agree that you should let your DH spend time with Hank, but you don’t need to subject yourself or your children to that much rage.

Op here: Really and truly this is it. She was fun Flo for years! I loved her and she was definitely a good friend. We would text every day! But during covid it was clear she fell into a deep depression and her rages (which were sorta funny before) became dark. The yelling which didn’t exist before became loud and dark. Italy was hit hard during the pandemic, especially the early part, and I know she spent months worrying about her family. I don’t think she’s come out of this depression. DH spends a lot of time with Hank one on one (they do sports together), and I wonder if maybe we can quietly distance ourselves while letting them continue their friendship.

I think I’m just sad that our friendship the way it was is over I guess.

So the most obvious thing here is that you start a conversation with her. That you miss her and that you’re concerned. As a friend would.