Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What are "CTCL" schools?

An NYT education reporter coined the term, then wrote a book (maybe more) about them. They're mainly liberal arts colleges outside the Northeast. There are some posters on here who seem to live to hate them and accuse anyone who even mentions one of them of having veal for children. Yes, they may not be as prestigious as some of the NESCACs, but some crank out grads in certain fields who go on to top grad schools, etc. For example, Wooster is known for its physics program. They are a good alternative for students who can only afford in-state, but may better thrive in a LAC. There are some who offer generous merit packages to make that possible.

What this poster really means is that they're a good alternative for kids who don't have to smarts to get into top ranked private colleges but have parents with money who think their kids are too special for state schools.

What the PP is unwilling to recognize is that not all top-ranked private colleges provide merit aid. I know a kid in at Amherst, Harvard, and Stanford, but headed to a CTCL as the parents cannot afford four years of full-pay private tuition when there are two more right behind this kid. The parents make enough to not qualify for aid, but not enough to bank roll even one kid for those four years.

Part of what this thread reveals is the parochial nature of some parents, ones who can't contemplate a world other than their own.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What are "CTCL" schools?

An NYT education reporter coined the term, then wrote a book (maybe more) about them. They're mainly liberal arts colleges outside the Northeast. There are some posters on here who seem to live to hate them and accuse anyone who even mentions one of them of having veal for children. Yes, they may not be as prestigious as some of the NESCACs, but some crank out grads in certain fields who go on to top grad schools, etc. For example, Wooster is known for its physics program. They are a good alternative for students who can only afford in-state, but may better thrive in a LAC. There are some who offer generous merit packages to make that possible.

What this poster really means is that they're a good alternative for kids who don't have to smarts to get into top ranked private colleges but have parents with money who think their kids are too special for state schools.

You're so special. Must be good to be fortunate that your DC can thrive in any environment. Pray they never really need your support in an area you deem weak or insufficient because they already know not to come to you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I won’t pay a lot for clothes or cars or alcohol or beauty treatments or jewelry or fine dining any of that stuff but yeah, I will pay tuition at whatever college my kid wants to go to. My kid goes to an $80k school, my pants are from Old Navy. Makes me happy. YMMV.

+1000

DOn't understand the "I'll pay for an ivy or Stanford/MIT but after that, I'm not paying $80K". If you can afford to pay, why would you not want your kid to attend the best college of THEIR choice?

And if you would need to take loans for the IVY/S/M I don't call that affording it. I'd ask, why would you take $40-50K/year just for that. Ivies are great school, but really not that much better (or even better at all) than many of the other T50 schools. For me it's more about major and fit. But I wouldn't go into debt for any school if I had other choices I could afford (but it's a mute point as I have saved and can/am sending my kids to full pay expensive schools)

Because paying 80k "after that" is just plain stupid, that's why, and most 18 year olds aren't sophisticated enough financially to realize that. So you have to step in. Why is it that folks don't think twice about denying a kid anything but a college education on the ground that the thing they want just isn't worth the money.

We had one kid get into UVA and Notre Dame. Yes, we could have afforded Notre Dame, but we can afford lots of things that we don't buy. Are we really just expected to pay double for Notre Dame just because our kid wants us to? Sorry, no.

We value education. So yes, I'd happily pay if that's where my kid wants to attend. You obviously are not required to do that. But I'd rather spend on a college education than a fancy car or vacation

Ridiculous. UVA in state is less than half of ND and the educations are very comparable. Next?

Not ridiculous at all, just in your opinion. I suspect you don't have $320K saved so ND just isn't affordable for your family so you are just stating they are "comparable".

If one is a better fit for your kid and their major and you can afford to pay, why wouldn't you?
ND vs UVA stats
10K vs 17K undergrads alone is a huge difference for many kids.
8.3:1 vs 14:1 student:faculty ratio
2.3% vs 6.5% of classes with 100+ students
7.9% vs 14.5% of classes with 50+ students

In less than 5 mins I found these key data points demonstrating key differences and ones that I'd argue make ND "a better school" More access to faculty, smaller class sizes makes for a better educational experience IMO.

So while both are great schools, ND definately has an edge.

The first bolded sentence is just absolutely and unnecessarily gratuitous. And the second bolded one definitely calls everything into question.

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]...[/quote]

Lol I’m a fan of Notre Dame but UVA has the [b]highest graduation rate of any state school in the country[/b] and rivals the very best privates (including ND) in this department. In many ways UVA is basically Notre Dame without religion. [/quote]

If you think the two are in any way comparable, you have not seen both campuses. I wonder how much the UVA graduation rate is impacted by the multimillionaire parents who refuse to pay for their child to transfer to another school? At least with respect to these kids, the term “captivity rate” is more apt. [/quote]

Not sure where you are getting your facts.

4 year graduation rate:
Notre Dame 93% (highest in the country)
UVA 89%
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/highest-grad-rate

6 year graduation rate:
Notre Dame 97% (#3 in country tied with UC Berkeley and Yale)
UVA 94%
https://www.collegexpress.com/lists/list/colleges-with-the-highest-six-year-graduation-rates/665/

Hey isn't UC Berkeley a public university? I guess that theory goes out the window too (see bolded above).

And I agree, ND does have the most beautiful campus.

[/quote]
I am not sure what facts you think I did not know: I was well aware that Notre Dame’s graduation rate is the highest in the country. (Didn’t want to rub it in, mind you.) And Virginia’s is also high, which — if you can reread and find nuance, though you do not seem the nuance type — was precisely the point: where else do students have to go if they are unhappy at the UVA’s of the world? Having already gone there because of cost, the alternatives are very limited. They are essentially “in captivity.” In fact, it is a wonder that state flagships do not overwhelmingly dominate over private universities in graduation rates for that very reason. They do not, though, because of an inferior student experience. Again, Notre Dame’s student experience is in no way comparable to UVA. Get it? [/quote]

You're assuming that UVA, which has one of the wealthiest student bodies in the country, is full of kids who can't afford to go elsewhere? Ok . . .

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I won’t pay a lot for clothes or cars or alcohol or beauty treatments or jewelry or fine dining any of that stuff but yeah, I will pay tuition at whatever college my kid wants to go to. My kid goes to an $80k school, my pants are from Old Navy. Makes me happy. YMMV.

+1000

DOn't understand the "I'll pay for an ivy or Stanford/MIT but after that, I'm not paying $80K". If you can afford to pay, why would you not want your kid to attend the best college of THEIR choice?

And if you would need to take loans for the IVY/S/M I don't call that affording it. I'd ask, why would you take $40-50K/year just for that. Ivies are great school, but really not that much better (or even better at all) than many of the other T50 schools. For me it's more about major and fit. But I wouldn't go into debt for any school if I had other choices I could afford (but it's a mute point as I have saved and can/am sending my kids to full pay expensive schools)

Because paying 80k "after that" is just plain stupid, that's why, and most 18 year olds aren't sophisticated enough financially to realize that. So you have to step in. Why is it that folks don't think twice about denying a kid anything but a college education on the ground that the thing they want just isn't worth the money.

We had one kid get into UVA and Notre Dame. Yes, we could have afforded Notre Dame, but we can afford lots of things that we don't buy. Are we really just expected to pay double for Notre Dame just because our kid wants us to? Sorry, no.

We value education. So yes, I'd happily pay if that's where my kid wants to attend. You obviously are not required to do that. But I'd rather spend on a college education than a fancy car or vacation

Ridiculous. UVA in state is less than half of ND and the educations are very comparable. Next?

Not ridiculous at all, just in your opinion. I suspect you don't have $320K saved so ND just isn't affordable for your family so you are just stating they are "comparable".

If one is a better fit for your kid and their major and you can afford to pay, why wouldn't you?
ND vs UVA stats
10K vs 17K undergrads alone is a huge difference for many kids.
8.3:1 vs 14:1 student:faculty ratio
2.3% vs 6.5% of classes with 100+ students
7.9% vs 14.5% of classes with 50+ students

In less than 5 mins I found these key data points demonstrating key differences and ones that I'd argue make ND "a better school" More access to faculty, smaller class sizes makes for a better educational experience IMO.

So while both are great schools, ND definately has an edge.

I'm a Notre Dame grad. I know more about the school than you do. I was making nearly 7 figures a year when my kid was accepted to ND. I easily could have afforded it. None of the metrics that you have just listed necessarily make it a better school than UVA. Otherwise a school like, say, Hampshire College would be better than both ND and UVA by definition. Your presumption that the smaller, the better just doesn't hold true.

I'm fond of ND, but it's not worth nearly triple of UVA in state.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What are "CTCL" schools?

An NYT education reporter coined the term, then wrote a book (maybe more) about them. They're mainly liberal arts colleges outside the Northeast. There are some posters on here who seem to live to hate them and accuse anyone who even mentions one of them of having veal for children. Yes, they may not be as prestigious as some of the NESCACs, but some crank out grads in certain fields who go on to top grad schools, etc. For example, Wooster is known for its physics program. They are a good alternative for students who can only afford in-state, but may better thrive in a LAC. There are some who offer generous merit packages to make that possible.

What this poster really means is that they're a good alternative for kids who don't have to smarts to get into top ranked private colleges but have parents with money who think their kids are too special for state schools.

Both can be true. You don't always need to spin it in a nasty way, PP. God forbid you or your loved ones ever become sub-par at something and get reviled by others like you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What are "CTCL" schools?

An NYT education reporter coined the term, then wrote a book (maybe more) about them. They're mainly liberal arts colleges outside the Northeast. There are some posters on here who seem to live to hate them and accuse anyone who even mentions one of them of having veal for children. Yes, they may not be as prestigious as some of the NESCACs, but some crank out grads in certain fields who go on to top grad schools, etc. For example, Wooster is known for its physics program. They are a good alternative for students who can only afford in-state, but may better thrive in a LAC. There are some who offer generous merit packages to make that possible.

I think a lot of the insecurity from the bashers is geographic. It has always been hard for some posters on DCUM to accept how little much of the rest of the US cares about going to school in the Northeast.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What are "CTCL" schools?

An NYT education reporter coined the term, then wrote a book (maybe more) about them. They're mainly liberal arts colleges outside the Northeast. There are some posters on here who seem to live to hate them and accuse anyone who even mentions one of them of having veal for children. Yes, they may not be as prestigious as some of the NESCACs, but some crank out grads in certain fields who go on to top grad schools, etc. For example, Wooster is known for its physics program. They are a good alternative for students who can only afford in-state, but may better thrive in a LAC. There are some who offer generous merit packages to make that possible.

What this poster really means is that they're a good alternative for kids who don't have to smarts to get into top ranked private colleges but have parents with money who think their kids are too special for state schools.

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]...[/quote]

Lol I’m a fan of Notre Dame but UVA has the [b]highest graduation rate of any state school in the country[/b] and rivals the very best privates (including ND) in this department. In many ways UVA is basically Notre Dame without religion. [/quote]

If you think the two are in any way comparable, you have not seen both campuses. I wonder how much the UVA graduation rate is impacted by the multimillionaire parents who refuse to pay for their child to transfer to another school? At least with respect to these kids, the term “captivity rate” is more apt. [/quote]

Not sure where you are getting your facts.

4 year graduation rate:
Notre Dame 93% (highest in the country)
UVA 89%
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/highest-grad-rate

6 year graduation rate:
Notre Dame 97% (#3 in country tied with UC Berkeley and Yale)
UVA 94%
https://www.collegexpress.com/lists/list/colleges-with-the-highest-six-year-graduation-rates/665/

Hey isn't UC Berkeley a public university? I guess that theory goes out the window too (see bolded above).

And I agree, ND does have the most beautiful campus.

[/quote]
I am not sure what facts you think I did not know: I was well aware that Notre Dame’s graduation rate is the highest in the country. (Didn’t want to rub it in, mind you.) And Virginia’s is also high, which — if you can reread and find nuance, though you do not seem the nuance type — was precisely the point: where else do students have to go if they are unhappy at the UVA’s of the world? Having already gone there because of cost, the alternatives are very limited. They are essentially “in captivity.” In fact, it is a wonder that state flagships do not overwhelmingly dominate over private universities in graduation rates for that very reason. They do not, though, because of an inferior student experience. Again, Notre Dame’s student experience is in no way comparable to UVA. Get it?

[quote=Anonymous]...[/quote]

Lol I’m a fan of Notre Dame but UVA has the [b]highest graduation rate of any state school in the country[/b] and rivals the very best privates (including ND) in this department. In many ways UVA is basically Notre Dame without religion. [/quote]

If you think the two are in any way comparable, you have not seen both campuses. I wonder how much the UVA graduation rate is impacted by the multimillionaire parents who refuse to pay for their child to transfer to another school? At least with respect to these kids, the term “captivity rate” is more apt. [/quote]

Not sure where you are getting your facts.

4 year graduation rate:
Notre Dame 93% (highest in the country)
UVA 89%
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/highest-grad-rate

6 year graduation rate:
Notre Dame 97% (#3 in country tied with UC Berkeley and Yale)
UVA 94%
https://www.collegexpress.com/lists/list/colleges-with-the-highest-six-year-graduation-rates/665/

Hey isn't UC Berkeley a public university? I guess that theory goes out the window too (see bolded above).

And I agree, ND does have the most beautiful campus.

...[/quote]

Lol I’m a fan of Notre Dame but UVA has the highest graduation rate of any state school in the country and rivals the very best privates (including ND) in this department. In many ways UVA is basically Notre Dame without religion. [/quote]

If you think the two are in any way comparable, you have not seen both campuses. I wonder how much the UVA graduation rate is impacted by the multimillionaire parents who refuse to pay for their child to transfer to another school? At least with respect to these kids, the term “captivity rate” is more apt.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I won’t pay a lot for clothes or cars or alcohol or beauty treatments or jewelry or fine dining any of that stuff but yeah, I will pay tuition at whatever college my kid wants to go to. My kid goes to an $80k school, my pants are from Old Navy. Makes me happy. YMMV.

+1000

DOn't understand the "I'll pay for an ivy or Stanford/MIT but after that, I'm not paying $80K". If you can afford to pay, why would you not want your kid to attend the best college of THEIR choice?

And if you would need to take loans for the IVY/S/M I don't call that affording it. I'd ask, why would you take $40-50K/year just for that. Ivies are great school, but really not that much better (or even better at all) than many of the other T50 schools. For me it's more about major and fit. But I wouldn't go into debt for any school if I had other choices I could afford (but it's a mute point as I have saved and can/am sending my kids to full pay expensive schools)

Because paying 80k "after that" is just plain stupid, that's why, and most 18 year olds aren't sophisticated enough financially to realize that. So you have to step in. Why is it that folks don't think twice about denying a kid anything but a college education on the ground that the thing they want just isn't worth the money.

We had one kid get into UVA and Notre Dame. Yes, we could have afforded Notre Dame, but we can afford lots of things that we don't buy. Are we really just expected to pay double for Notre Dame just because our kid wants us to? Sorry, no.

We value education. So yes, I'd happily pay if that's where my kid wants to attend. You obviously are not required to do that. But I'd rather spend on a college education than a fancy car or vacation

Ridiculous. UVA in state is less than half of ND and the educations are very comparable. Next?

Not ridiculous at all, just in your opinion. I suspect you don't have $320K saved so ND just isn't affordable for your family so you are just stating they are "comparable".

If one is a better fit for your kid and their major and you can afford to pay, why wouldn't you?
ND vs UVA stats
10K vs 17K undergrads alone is a huge difference for many kids.
8.3:1 vs 14:1 student:faculty ratio
2.3% vs 6.5% of classes with 100+ students
7.9% vs 14.5% of classes with 50+ students

In less than 5 mins I found these key data points demonstrating key differences and ones that I'd argue make ND "a better school" More access to faculty, smaller class sizes makes for a better educational experience IMO.

So while both are great schools, ND definately has an edge.

I posted earlier that ND is a great school, but not for everyone. But I will add that in addition to all above, its biggest asset is the alumni network you have at your disposal, which is one of the best in the country. Everyone knows that. Its #13 on this list, which looks to be quite accurate based on the other schools on the list. https://www.collegeconsensus.com/rankings/best-college-alumni-networks/

ND and Emory boosters must be having a cocktail party today...next time they should invite the Tulane and SLAC/CTLT boosters and get the full crowd together.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I won’t pay a lot for clothes or cars or alcohol or beauty treatments or jewelry or fine dining any of that stuff but yeah, I will pay tuition at whatever college my kid wants to go to. My kid goes to an $80k school, my pants are from Old Navy. Makes me happy. YMMV.

+1000

DOn't understand the "I'll pay for an ivy or Stanford/MIT but after that, I'm not paying $80K". If you can afford to pay, why would you not want your kid to attend the best college of THEIR choice?

And if you would need to take loans for the IVY/S/M I don't call that affording it. I'd ask, why would you take $40-50K/year just for that. Ivies are great school, but really not that much better (or even better at all) than many of the other T50 schools. For me it's more about major and fit. But I wouldn't go into debt for any school if I had other choices I could afford (but it's a mute point as I have saved and can/am sending my kids to full pay expensive schools)

Because paying 80k "after that" is just plain stupid, that's why, and most 18 year olds aren't sophisticated enough financially to realize that. So you have to step in. Why is it that folks don't think twice about denying a kid anything but a college education on the ground that the thing they want just isn't worth the money.

We had one kid get into UVA and Notre Dame. Yes, we could have afforded Notre Dame, but we can afford lots of things that we don't buy. Are we really just expected to pay double for Notre Dame just because our kid wants us to? Sorry, no.

We value education. So yes, I'd happily pay if that's where my kid wants to attend. You obviously are not required to do that. But I'd rather spend on a college education than a fancy car or vacation

Ridiculous. UVA in state is less than half of ND and the educations are very comparable. Next?

Not ridiculous at all, just in your opinion. I suspect you don't have $320K saved so ND just isn't affordable for your family so you are just stating they are "comparable".

If one is a better fit for your kid and their major and you can afford to pay, why wouldn't you?
ND vs UVA stats
10K vs 17K undergrads alone is a huge difference for many kids.
8.3:1 vs 14:1 student:faculty ratio
2.3% vs 6.5% of classes with 100+ students
7.9% vs 14.5% of classes with 50+ students

In less than 5 mins I found these key data points demonstrating key differences and ones that I'd argue make ND "a better school" More access to faculty, smaller class sizes makes for a better educational experience IMO.

So while both are great schools, ND definately has an edge.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just one person's opinion but I don't get paying $75k+ a year for a school not named HYPSM.

Any top 20 college is worth it.

What makes it worth it?