Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Geez, are you the same poster who went on and on about feeling duped by that Shen Yun show? Atheist here, and I think you need to get a grip and let it go. Who the heck cares whether your belief system is associated with the devil in some people’s religions? Since I don’t believe in it, whatever, it’s like being associated with the tooth fairy or something.

They 100% are. And for those that are confused, no one in OP’s thread in the Entertainment forum said he didn’t have morals. You do not need to be religious to have morals. Otherwise we wouldn’t have millions of stories of religious men acting without morals.

Thank you for admitting the bolded part. I never claimed anything about what was said on the other thread. I just wanted to separate this discussion from that thread because there were several people saying that atheists should not be offended by any association with the Devil (because the Devil doesn't exist for them). It happens that I personally don't agree with that line of thought.

DP. From a religious point of view, your morals are meaningless. They likely have a teological origin rooted in observations and outcomes. In most, I hesitate to say all because I am not familiar with every religion, morals are derived from a divine source, either through enlightenment or direct communication with their Supreme Being. This deontological origin is troubling to some, because there is no why. It's just the rules that your religion asks you to follow. From a religious point of view, if your morals don't come from God, the only other choice is the hubris of man. To believe you can know the mind of God is sacrilegious in many religions.

Thank you for the additional background. Now back to the original question: should an atheist feel offended by the association with the Devil, or this association is just a tenderhearted, compassionate compliment?

As I tried to explain, your morals are literally offensive to many religions. It doesn't matter that your morals overlap theirs to some extent. You hold them for the wrong reasons. Lucky for you, you live in a country that tolerates religious, including none, diversity. But whether it offends you, is up to you.

Well, they were forced to change their attitude in time. And they will have to continue changing their attitude to keep up with the times. You have quite a few options:
1. You can sit back and pretend that it's just freedom of speech and you can't do anything about it.
2. You can pretend that you have no idea what they mean when they associate you with the devil.
3. You can pretend that you are above all this and their devil is just another comic book character.
4. You can point out that their attitude is hateful and force them to change.

So, your argument is basically, I am an atheist, therefore I am right. People must accept and admit that I am right.

FYI, forcing people to change never works.

Do you still believe that religious people were right when they were imprisoning, torturing, burning, and killing atheists?

Atheist persecution never happened on a large scale.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists

Would you suggest that atheists prosecution was / is ok because (according to you) it never happened on a large scale?

Yes.

DP here. Are you a troll trying to make believers look like monsters? If so, nice job. But we caught you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Geez, are you the same poster who went on and on about feeling duped by that Shen Yun show? Atheist here, and I think you need to get a grip and let it go. Who the heck cares whether your belief system is associated with the devil in some people’s religions? Since I don’t believe in it, whatever, it’s like being associated with the tooth fairy or something.

They 100% are. And for those that are confused, no one in OP’s thread in the Entertainment forum said he didn’t have morals. You do not need to be religious to have morals. Otherwise we wouldn’t have millions of stories of religious men acting without morals.

Thank you for admitting the bolded part. I never claimed anything about what was said on the other thread. I just wanted to separate this discussion from that thread because there were several people saying that atheists should not be offended by any association with the Devil (because the Devil doesn't exist for them). It happens that I personally don't agree with that line of thought.

DP. From a religious point of view, your morals are meaningless. They likely have a teological origin rooted in observations and outcomes. In most, I hesitate to say all because I am not familiar with every religion, morals are derived from a divine source, either through enlightenment or direct communication with their Supreme Being. This deontological origin is troubling to some, because there is no why. It's just the rules that your religion asks you to follow. From a religious point of view, if your morals don't come from God, the only other choice is the hubris of man. To believe you can know the mind of God is sacrilegious in many religions.

Thank you for the additional background. Now back to the original question: should an atheist feel offended by the association with the Devil, or this association is just a tenderhearted, compassionate compliment?

As I tried to explain, your morals are literally offensive to many religions. It doesn't matter that your morals overlap theirs to some extent. You hold them for the wrong reasons. Lucky for you, you live in a country that tolerates religious, including none, diversity. But whether it offends you, is up to you.

Well, they were forced to change their attitude in time. And they will have to continue changing their attitude to keep up with the times. You have quite a few options:
1. You can sit back and pretend that it's just freedom of speech and you can't do anything about it.
2. You can pretend that you have no idea what they mean when they associate you with the devil.
3. You can pretend that you are above all this and their devil is just another comic book character.
4. You can point out that their attitude is hateful and force them to change.

So, your argument is basically, I am an atheist, therefore I am right. People must accept and admit that I am right.

FYI, forcing people to change never works.

Do you still believe that religious people were right when they were imprisoning, torturing, burning, and killing atheists?

Atheist persecution never happened on a large scale.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists

Would you suggest that atheists prosecution was / is ok because (according to you) it never happened on a large scale?

Yes.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm an atheist. Why would I care what someone who believes in fictional stories thinks about me? Doesn't insult me, doesn't offend me in the slightest.

Maybe because you use critical thinking and see context. They demonize your identity to make it easier for them as a group to hate you. Then they turn that hate into political action to advance their own interest against your interest.

You have just described living in a society. Congratulations.

I appreciate the insight and the congratulatory remarks. I will only add that I described living in a society with hateful people. Not the kind of society that I find ideal.

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Geez, are you the same poster who went on and on about feeling duped by that Shen Yun show? Atheist here, and I think you need to get a grip and let it go. Who the heck cares whether your belief system is associated with the devil in some people’s religions? Since I don’t believe in it, whatever, it’s like being associated with the tooth fairy or something.

They 100% are. And for those that are confused, no one in OP’s thread in the Entertainment forum said he didn’t have morals. You do not need to be religious to have morals. Otherwise we wouldn’t have millions of stories of religious men acting without morals.

Thank you for admitting the bolded part. I never claimed anything about what was said on the other thread. I just wanted to separate this discussion from that thread because there were several people saying that atheists should not be offended by any association with the Devil (because the Devil doesn't exist for them). It happens that I personally don't agree with that line of thought.

DP. From a religious point of view, your morals are meaningless. They likely have a teological origin rooted in observations and outcomes. In most, I hesitate to say all because I am not familiar with every religion, morals are derived from a divine source, either through enlightenment or direct communication with their Supreme Being. This deontological origin is troubling to some, because there is no why. It's just the rules that your religion asks you to follow. From a religious point of view, if your morals don't come from God, the only other choice is the hubris of man. To believe you can know the mind of God is sacrilegious in many religions.

Thank you for the additional background. Now back to the original question: should an atheist feel offended by the association with the Devil, or this association is just a tenderhearted, compassionate compliment?

As I tried to explain, your morals are literally offensive to many religions. It doesn't matter that your morals overlap theirs to some extent. You hold them for the wrong reasons. Lucky for you, you live in a country that tolerates religious, including none, diversity. But whether it offends you, is up to you.

Well, they were forced to change their attitude in time. And they will have to continue changing their attitude to keep up with the times. You have quite a few options:
1. You can sit back and pretend that it's just freedom of speech and you can't do anything about it.
2. You can pretend that you have no idea what they mean when they associate you with the devil.
3. You can pretend that you are above all this and their devil is just another comic book character.
4. You can point out that their attitude is hateful and force them to change.

So, your argument is basically, I am an atheist, therefore I am right. People must accept and admit that I am right.

FYI, forcing people to change never works.

Do you still believe that religious people were right when they were imprisoning, torturing, burning, and killing atheists?

Atheist persecution never happened on a large scale.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists

Would you suggest that atheists prosecution was / is ok because (according to you) it never happened on a large scale?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Geez, are you the same poster who went on and on about feeling duped by that Shen Yun show? Atheist here, and I think you need to get a grip and let it go. Who the heck cares whether your belief system is associated with the devil in some people’s religions? Since I don’t believe in it, whatever, it’s like being associated with the tooth fairy or something.

They 100% are. And for those that are confused, no one in OP’s thread in the Entertainment forum said he didn’t have morals. You do not need to be religious to have morals. Otherwise we wouldn’t have millions of stories of religious men acting without morals.

Thank you for admitting the bolded part. I never claimed anything about what was said on the other thread. I just wanted to separate this discussion from that thread because there were several people saying that atheists should not be offended by any association with the Devil (because the Devil doesn't exist for them). It happens that I personally don't agree with that line of thought.

DP. From a religious point of view, your morals are meaningless. They likely have a teological origin rooted in observations and outcomes. In most, I hesitate to say all because I am not familiar with every religion, morals are derived from a divine source, either through enlightenment or direct communication with their Supreme Being. This deontological origin is troubling to some, because there is no why. It's just the rules that your religion asks you to follow. From a religious point of view, if your morals don't come from God, the only other choice is the hubris of man. To believe you can know the mind of God is sacrilegious in many religions.

Thank you for the additional background. Now back to the original question: should an atheist feel offended by the association with the Devil, or this association is just a tenderhearted, compassionate compliment?

As I tried to explain, your morals are literally offensive to many religions. It doesn't matter that your morals overlap theirs to some extent. You hold them for the wrong reasons. Lucky for you, you live in a country that tolerates religious, including none, diversity. But whether it offends you, is up to you.

Well, they were forced to change their attitude in time. And they will have to continue changing their attitude to keep up with the times. You have quite a few options:
1. You can sit back and pretend that it's just freedom of speech and you can't do anything about it.
2. You can pretend that you have no idea what they mean when they associate you with the devil.
3. You can pretend that you are above all this and their devil is just another comic book character.
4. You can point out that their attitude is hateful and force them to change.

So, your argument is basically, I am an atheist, therefore I am right. People must accept and admit that I am right.

FYI, forcing people to change never works.

Do you still believe that religious people were right when they were imprisoning, torturing, burning, and killing atheists?

Atheist persecution never happened on a large scale.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It certainly doesn’t offend me, an atheist, because Satan doesn’t exist.

I believe that you should consider the intent of the people saying the word rather than your interpretation of the word. For religious people, Satan / Devil is the worst thing that they can think of. If you were in the middle ages, you would be tortured to change your belief system, then burned alive. There are parts of the world where atheists face similar type of treatment at the hands of religious people.

Could you list the countries where atheists are burned and tortured? I’ve never heard of this.

Thank you for your interest in the topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_for_non-violent_offenses#Apostasy_and_blasphemy

Apostasy and blasphemy
Edit

Further information: Apostasy in Islam by country and Blasphemy law
See also: Discrimination against atheists
Apostasy means renouncing/abandoning/leaving one's religion for another religion (known as conversion) or irreligion (known as deconversion or disaffiliation, including to stances such as atheism, agnosticism and freethought). In the 21st century, this is considered a crime only for Muslims, in a limited number of countries and territories (25 as of 2014 according to Pew Research Center, all of which were located in Africa or Asia[2]), about ten of whom have the death penalty on it, while the other jurisdictions may inflict less severe punishments such as imprisonment, a fine or loss of some civil rights (in Jordan all civil rights), notably one's marriage and child custody.[2] Converting a Muslim to another religion or irreligion is sometimes also criminalised as being an 'accomplice to apostasy'.[3] Apostasy is not known to be a crime (let alone a capital crime) for adherents of any other religion in any country in the 21st century.[4] Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948) includes the 'freedom to change [one's] religion or belief', therefore any obstruction of apostasy is considered a human rights violation in international law.[4]

Blasphemy means insult, defamation or desecration/sacrilege of something that or someone who is deemed holy in one or more religions. Unlike apostasy, the religious status of the person suspected/accused of blasphemy is generally regarded as irrelevant; for example, a Muslim may be accused of 'blaspheming' a thing or person deemed holy by some Christians (or Christian organisation or authority), and vice versa, even if that thing or person is not 'holy' to the suspect. In the 21st century, blasphemy is much more widely criminalised than apostasy, in jurisdictions around the world, and is influenced by several religions including Christianity, Islam and Judaism.[2] As of July 2020, blasphemy could be punished by the death penalty in eight countries, all of which were Muslim-majority.[5]

In some jurisdictions influenced by Sharia (Islamic law), apostasy and blasphemy are closely linked offences. 'Apostasy', or 'public expression of apostasy', is sometimes considered a form/'evidence' of 'blasphemy' and is then prosecuted as such, even though 'apostasy' itself may not be a crime (example: Pakistan).[6] Likewise, 'blasphemy' is sometimes considered a form/'evidence' of 'apostasy' and is then prosecuted as such, even though 'blasphemy' itself may not be a (capital) crime (example: Qatar).[7] Furthermore, apostasy and blasphemy tend to be closely legally linked to atheism. Formally, being an atheist (or otherwise non-religious person) itself is not an offence in any country, but in practice it is difficult to be an atheist without being able to become an atheist (which is legally impossible for Muslims in many countries, some of which impose capital punishment) or while needing to keep it a secret to everyone that one is an atheist. Therefore, although there is a technical difference between becoming an atheist (a form of apostasy), being an atheist (atheism), and expressing that one is an atheist (which is considered a form of 'blasphemy' by some), some commentators frame the legal situation such that 'being an atheist is punishable by death'[8] or that 'atheism is punishable by the death penalty' in some countries.[9]


From your link, it seems like Muslim countries are the only countries who do this.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm an atheist. Why would I care what someone who believes in fictional stories thinks about me? Doesn't insult me, doesn't offend me in the slightest.

Maybe because you use critical thinking and see context. They demonize your identity to make it easier for them as a group to hate you. Then they turn that hate into political action to advance their own interest against your interest.

You have just described living in a society. Congratulations.

I just don’t care what other people think of me. They are who they are and I am who I am. I don’t judge others. I am comfortable with my own beliefs and other people are comfortable with their own beliefs.

Someone could try to change my mind with rational arguments, but no one can force me to change my mind. Nor can I force someone else to change their mind about their beliefs, even if I for some reason wanted to.

I spend my energy on positive, useful actions and I don’t waste it on caring what some person down the street thinks of me. People who are confident in themselves will not be affected by peer attitudes. No one can force someone else to change what they believe.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm an atheist. Why would I care what someone who believes in fictional stories thinks about me? Doesn't insult me, doesn't offend me in the slightest.

Maybe because you use critical thinking and see context. They demonize your identity to make it easier for them as a group to hate you. Then they turn that hate into political action to advance their own interest against your interest.

What if you “used critical thinking and see context” and the context is laughable to you?

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Geez, are you the same poster who went on and on about feeling duped by that Shen Yun show? Atheist here, and I think you need to get a grip and let it go. Who the heck cares whether your belief system is associated with the devil in some people’s religions? Since I don’t believe in it, whatever, it’s like being associated with the tooth fairy or something.

They 100% are. And for those that are confused, no one in OP’s thread in the Entertainment forum said he didn’t have morals. You do not need to be religious to have morals. Otherwise we wouldn’t have millions of stories of religious men acting without morals.

Thank you for admitting the bolded part. I never claimed anything about what was said on the other thread. I just wanted to separate this discussion from that thread because there were several people saying that atheists should not be offended by any association with the Devil (because the Devil doesn't exist for them). It happens that I personally don't agree with that line of thought.

DP. From a religious point of view, your morals are meaningless. They likely have a teological origin rooted in observations and outcomes. In most, I hesitate to say all because I am not familiar with every religion, morals are derived from a divine source, either through enlightenment or direct communication with their Supreme Being. This deontological origin is troubling to some, because there is no why. It's just the rules that your religion asks you to follow. From a religious point of view, if your morals don't come from God, the only other choice is the hubris of man. To believe you can know the mind of God is sacrilegious in many religions.

Thank you for the additional background. Now back to the original question: should an atheist feel offended by the association with the Devil, or this association is just a tenderhearted, compassionate compliment?

I’m not atheist so let me flip this in order to answer. If an atheist told me that I’m a moron for believing in God, that there is no God, God ruins the world, my afterlife is just being worm food, etc, then no I won’t be offended. I don’t care - you can believe what you want. I’m happy and am assured with my faith.

If you want to flip the question, let's add some fictitious background. The atheists were in charge of the world and they prosecuted you for your beliefs throughout the history. You could be imprisoned, tortured, and / or burned alive because your beliefs. After millennia of prosecution, you are finally free to talk about your God and practice your religion. But there are still those people who call you a moron for believing in God, that there is no God, God ruins the world, my afterlife is just being worm food. Would that offend you?

No. As I said, I don’t care - you can believe what you want. I’m happy and am assured with my faith.

Can you see why an atheist might be offended by association with the Devil though?

At some point, you have to care only about yourself and your own beliefs and not care what other people think. People are different and have different beliefs. We can’t control other people’s beliefs: we just have to live our own lives the way we choose.

You may be able to live your life the way you choose, but not everyone can. Do you remember the fight to keep religion out of science classes? There is a supermajority of religious nuts on the supreme court who started ruling based on their religious beliefs. It is easy to suggest that everyone can live their lives the way they choose when that is clearly not an option.

Not thinking and worrying about what other people think of you has nothing to do with the Supreme Court. You can’t change other people’s beliefs, just as they can’t change yours. Not everyone is going to like you or agree with you and you are not going to like or agree with everyone else. It is life and you can’t go around getting upset that everyone else is not exact Like you or the other way around.

That is not true. I never thought that the position of the furniture in the room mattered. Then I heard about Feng Shui and I started to place my furniture accordingly. After a while I figured out what a nonsense I believed in and I stopped paying attention to the way I arrange my furniture. People change their beliefs all the time.

You changed your own belief. Someone else didn’t somehow go into your mind and change your beliefs.

I disagree. People who described Feng Shui on Internet made me aware of the practice. Initially it made sense that orienting your bed according to the Earth's poles may make a difference in your well-being. Without those people, I wouldn't have acquired that belief. It lasted for a while until I started reading opinions stating the opposite. It took a while to realize that my belief in Feng Shui was not supported by any type of evidence. It was these other people who convinced me that my belief in Feng Shui doesn't make sense. It's all about educating yourself and using critical thinking to acquire new beliefs or change the old ones. You just need the flexibility to change your mind based on the evidence that is available to you. I would not be comfortable being stuck in my own beliefs in spite of all the evidence that I am wrong.

You took your own action to change your mind about something. No one charged your mind for you. You did your own research and made decisions for yourself based on that research. No one did that for you or to you. No one can change your inner beliefs except you.

pp was affected by information available to them - some pro Feng shui, some con Feng shui. pp analyzed the info and came to a conclusion. The information changed app's inner beliefs.

Yes, pp took action with researched information and changed their own inner beliefs. No one forced a change of inner beliefs on the pp. We can all change our inner beliefs if we choose to when we acquire new information, but no one can force us to change our inner beliefs.

What is an "inner" belief?

Is there such a thing as an "outer" belief?

I googled "inner beliefs" and what I got instead is "core beliefs." Here is one of the links that explain what core beliefs are:
https://eddinscounseling.com/uncover-core-beliefs-can-change/
Apparently, they are beliefs that you consider absolute truths (whether they are true or not). Changing them may require therapy. The Feng Shui case may not be a good example of core belief.

Thanks for clarification, “inner belief” makes no sense imho.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Geez, are you the same poster who went on and on about feeling duped by that Shen Yun show? Atheist here, and I think you need to get a grip and let it go. Who the heck cares whether your belief system is associated with the devil in some people’s religions? Since I don’t believe in it, whatever, it’s like being associated with the tooth fairy or something.

They 100% are. And for those that are confused, no one in OP’s thread in the Entertainment forum said he didn’t have morals. You do not need to be religious to have morals. Otherwise we wouldn’t have millions of stories of religious men acting without morals.

Thank you for admitting the bolded part. I never claimed anything about what was said on the other thread. I just wanted to separate this discussion from that thread because there were several people saying that atheists should not be offended by any association with the Devil (because the Devil doesn't exist for them). It happens that I personally don't agree with that line of thought.

DP. From a religious point of view, your morals are meaningless. They likely have a teological origin rooted in observations and outcomes. In most, I hesitate to say all because I am not familiar with every religion, morals are derived from a divine source, either through enlightenment or direct communication with their Supreme Being. This deontological origin is troubling to some, because there is no why. It's just the rules that your religion asks you to follow. From a religious point of view, if your morals don't come from God, the only other choice is the hubris of man. To believe you can know the mind of God is sacrilegious in many religions.

Thank you for the additional background. Now back to the original question: should an atheist feel offended by the association with the Devil, or this association is just a tenderhearted, compassionate compliment?

I’m not atheist so let me flip this in order to answer. If an atheist told me that I’m a moron for believing in God, that there is no God, God ruins the world, my afterlife is just being worm food, etc, then no I won’t be offended. I don’t care - you can believe what you want. I’m happy and am assured with my faith.

If you want to flip the question, let's add some fictitious background. The atheists were in charge of the world and they prosecuted you for your beliefs throughout the history. You could be imprisoned, tortured, and / or burned alive because your beliefs. After millennia of prosecution, you are finally free to talk about your God and practice your religion. But there are still those people who call you a moron for believing in God, that there is no God, God ruins the world, my afterlife is just being worm food. Would that offend you?

No. As I said, I don’t care - you can believe what you want. I’m happy and am assured with my faith.

Can you see why an atheist might be offended by association with the Devil though?

At some point, you have to care only about yourself and your own beliefs and not care what other people think. People are different and have different beliefs. We can’t control other people’s beliefs: we just have to live our own lives the way we choose.

You may be able to live your life the way you choose, but not everyone can. Do you remember the fight to keep religion out of science classes? There is a supermajority of religious nuts on the supreme court who started ruling based on their religious beliefs. It is easy to suggest that everyone can live their lives the way they choose when that is clearly not an option.

Not thinking and worrying about what other people think of you has nothing to do with the Supreme Court. You can’t change other people’s beliefs, just as they can’t change yours. Not everyone is going to like you or agree with you and you are not going to like or agree with everyone else. It is life and you can’t go around getting upset that everyone else is not exact Like you or the other way around.

That is not true. I never thought that the position of the furniture in the room mattered. Then I heard about Feng Shui and I started to place my furniture accordingly. After a while I figured out what a nonsense I believed in and I stopped paying attention to the way I arrange my furniture. People change their beliefs all the time.

You changed your own belief. Someone else didn’t somehow go into your mind and change your beliefs.

I disagree. People who described Feng Shui on Internet made me aware of the practice. Initially it made sense that orienting your bed according to the Earth's poles may make a difference in your well-being. Without those people, I wouldn't have acquired that belief. It lasted for a while until I started reading opinions stating the opposite. It took a while to realize that my belief in Feng Shui was not supported by any type of evidence. It was these other people who convinced me that my belief in Feng Shui doesn't make sense. It's all about educating yourself and using critical thinking to acquire new beliefs or change the old ones. You just need the flexibility to change your mind based on the evidence that is available to you. I would not be comfortable being stuck in my own beliefs in spite of all the evidence that I am wrong.

You took your own action to change your mind about something. No one charged your mind for you. You did your own research and made decisions for yourself based on that research. No one did that for you or to you. No one can change your inner beliefs except you.

pp was affected by information available to them - some pro Feng shui, some con Feng shui. pp analyzed the info and came to a conclusion. The information changed app's inner beliefs.

Yes, pp took action with researched information and changed their own inner beliefs. No one forced a change of inner beliefs on the pp. We can all change our inner beliefs if we choose to when we acquire new information, but no one can force us to change our inner beliefs.

What is an "inner" belief?

Is there such a thing as an "outer" belief?

I googled "inner beliefs" and what I got instead is "core beliefs." Here is one of the links that explain what core beliefs are:
https://eddinscounseling.com/uncover-core-beliefs-can-change/
Apparently, they are beliefs that you consider absolute truths (whether they are true or not). Changing them may require therapy. The Feng Shui case may not be a good example of core belief.

THe feng Sui belief was never presented as an example of a core belief - but rather of a belief that was acquired with information and then dropped with more reliable information.

I guess the point is that it is easier to acquire (then drop) a random belief than a core belief. Once a belief makes it into your core belief system, it is harder to drop. I can see why religion is so difficult to renounce. If you are brainwashed weekly from the time when you are a child, religion is likely part of your core belief system.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Geez, are you the same poster who went on and on about feeling duped by that Shen Yun show? Atheist here, and I think you need to get a grip and let it go. Who the heck cares whether your belief system is associated with the devil in some people’s religions? Since I don’t believe in it, whatever, it’s like being associated with the tooth fairy or something.

They 100% are. And for those that are confused, no one in OP’s thread in the Entertainment forum said he didn’t have morals. You do not need to be religious to have morals. Otherwise we wouldn’t have millions of stories of religious men acting without morals.

Thank you for admitting the bolded part. I never claimed anything about what was said on the other thread. I just wanted to separate this discussion from that thread because there were several people saying that atheists should not be offended by any association with the Devil (because the Devil doesn't exist for them). It happens that I personally don't agree with that line of thought.

DP. From a religious point of view, your morals are meaningless. They likely have a teological origin rooted in observations and outcomes. In most, I hesitate to say all because I am not familiar with every religion, morals are derived from a divine source, either through enlightenment or direct communication with their Supreme Being. This deontological origin is troubling to some, because there is no why. It's just the rules that your religion asks you to follow. From a religious point of view, if your morals don't come from God, the only other choice is the hubris of man. To believe you can know the mind of God is sacrilegious in many religions.

Thank you for the additional background. Now back to the original question: should an atheist feel offended by the association with the Devil, or this association is just a tenderhearted, compassionate compliment?

I’m not atheist so let me flip this in order to answer. If an atheist told me that I’m a moron for believing in God, that there is no God, God ruins the world, my afterlife is just being worm food, etc, then no I won’t be offended. I don’t care - you can believe what you want. I’m happy and am assured with my faith.

If you want to flip the question, let's add some fictitious background. The atheists were in charge of the world and they prosecuted you for your beliefs throughout the history. You could be imprisoned, tortured, and / or burned alive because your beliefs. After millennia of prosecution, you are finally free to talk about your God and practice your religion. But there are still those people who call you a moron for believing in God, that there is no God, God ruins the world, my afterlife is just being worm food. Would that offend you?

No. As I said, I don’t care - you can believe what you want. I’m happy and am assured with my faith.

Can you see why an atheist might be offended by association with the Devil though?

At some point, you have to care only about yourself and your own beliefs and not care what other people think. People are different and have different beliefs. We can’t control other people’s beliefs: we just have to live our own lives the way we choose.

You may be able to live your life the way you choose, but not everyone can. Do you remember the fight to keep religion out of science classes? There is a supermajority of religious nuts on the supreme court who started ruling based on their religious beliefs. It is easy to suggest that everyone can live their lives the way they choose when that is clearly not an option.

Not thinking and worrying about what other people think of you has nothing to do with the Supreme Court. You can’t change other people’s beliefs, just as they can’t change yours. Not everyone is going to like you or agree with you and you are not going to like or agree with everyone else. It is life and you can’t go around getting upset that everyone else is not exact Like you or the other way around.

That is not true. I never thought that the position of the furniture in the room mattered. Then I heard about Feng Shui and I started to place my furniture accordingly. After a while I figured out what a nonsense I believed in and I stopped paying attention to the way I arrange my furniture. People change their beliefs all the time.

You changed your own belief. Someone else didn’t somehow go into your mind and change your beliefs.

I disagree. People who described Feng Shui on Internet made me aware of the practice. Initially it made sense that orienting your bed according to the Earth's poles may make a difference in your well-being. Without those people, I wouldn't have acquired that belief. It lasted for a while until I started reading opinions stating the opposite. It took a while to realize that my belief in Feng Shui was not supported by any type of evidence. It was these other people who convinced me that my belief in Feng Shui doesn't make sense. It's all about educating yourself and using critical thinking to acquire new beliefs or change the old ones. You just need the flexibility to change your mind based on the evidence that is available to you. I would not be comfortable being stuck in my own beliefs in spite of all the evidence that I am wrong.

You took your own action to change your mind about something. No one charged your mind for you. You did your own research and made decisions for yourself based on that research. No one did that for you or to you. No one can change your inner beliefs except you.

pp was affected by information available to them - some pro Feng shui, some con Feng shui. pp analyzed the info and came to a conclusion. The information changed app's inner beliefs.

Yes, pp took action with researched information and changed their own inner beliefs. No one forced a change of inner beliefs on the pp. We can all change our inner beliefs if we choose to when we acquire new information, but no one can force us to change our inner beliefs.

What is an "inner" belief?

Is there such a thing as an "outer" belief?

I googled "inner beliefs" and what I got instead is "core beliefs." Here is one of the links that explain what core beliefs are:
https://eddinscounseling.com/uncover-core-beliefs-can-change/
Apparently, they are beliefs that you consider absolute truths (whether they are true or not). Changing them may require therapy. The Feng Shui case may not be a good example of core belief.

THe feng Sui belief was never presented as an example of a core belief - but rather of a belief that was acquired with information and then dropped with more reliable information.

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Anonymous wrote:Geez, are you the same poster who went on and on about feeling duped by that Shen Yun show? Atheist here, and I think you need to get a grip and let it go. Who the heck cares whether your belief system is associated with the devil in some people’s religions? Since I don’t believe in it, whatever, it’s like being associated with the tooth fairy or something.

They 100% are. And for those that are confused, no one in OP’s thread in the Entertainment forum said he didn’t have morals. You do not need to be religious to have morals. Otherwise we wouldn’t have millions of stories of religious men acting without morals.

Thank you for admitting the bolded part. I never claimed anything about what was said on the other thread. I just wanted to separate this discussion from that thread because there were several people saying that atheists should not be offended by any association with the Devil (because the Devil doesn't exist for them). It happens that I personally don't agree with that line of thought.

DP. From a religious point of view, your morals are meaningless. They likely have a teological origin rooted in observations and outcomes. In most, I hesitate to say all because I am not familiar with every religion, morals are derived from a divine source, either through enlightenment or direct communication with their Supreme Being. This deontological origin is troubling to some, because there is no why. It's just the rules that your religion asks you to follow. From a religious point of view, if your morals don't come from God, the only other choice is the hubris of man. To believe you can know the mind of God is sacrilegious in many religions.

Thank you for the additional background. Now back to the original question: should an atheist feel offended by the association with the Devil, or this association is just a tenderhearted, compassionate compliment?

I’m not atheist so let me flip this in order to answer. If an atheist told me that I’m a moron for believing in God, that there is no God, God ruins the world, my afterlife is just being worm food, etc, then no I won’t be offended. I don’t care - you can believe what you want. I’m happy and am assured with my faith.

If you want to flip the question, let's add some fictitious background. The atheists were in charge of the world and they prosecuted you for your beliefs throughout the history. You could be imprisoned, tortured, and / or burned alive because your beliefs. After millennia of prosecution, you are finally free to talk about your God and practice your religion. But there are still those people who call you a moron for believing in God, that there is no God, God ruins the world, my afterlife is just being worm food. Would that offend you?

No. As I said, I don’t care - you can believe what you want. I’m happy and am assured with my faith.

Can you see why an atheist might be offended by association with the Devil though?

At some point, you have to care only about yourself and your own beliefs and not care what other people think. People are different and have different beliefs. We can’t control other people’s beliefs: we just have to live our own lives the way we choose.

You may be able to live your life the way you choose, but not everyone can. Do you remember the fight to keep religion out of science classes? There is a supermajority of religious nuts on the supreme court who started ruling based on their religious beliefs. It is easy to suggest that everyone can live their lives the way they choose when that is clearly not an option.

Not thinking and worrying about what other people think of you has nothing to do with the Supreme Court. You can’t change other people’s beliefs, just as they can’t change yours. Not everyone is going to like you or agree with you and you are not going to like or agree with everyone else. It is life and you can’t go around getting upset that everyone else is not exact Like you or the other way around.

That is not true. I never thought that the position of the furniture in the room mattered. Then I heard about Feng Shui and I started to place my furniture accordingly. After a while I figured out what a nonsense I believed in and I stopped paying attention to the way I arrange my furniture. People change their beliefs all the time.

You changed your own belief. Someone else didn’t somehow go into your mind and change your beliefs.

I disagree. People who described Feng Shui on Internet made me aware of the practice. Initially it made sense that orienting your bed according to the Earth's poles may make a difference in your well-being. Without those people, I wouldn't have acquired that belief. It lasted for a while until I started reading opinions stating the opposite. It took a while to realize that my belief in Feng Shui was not supported by any type of evidence. It was these other people who convinced me that my belief in Feng Shui doesn't make sense. It's all about educating yourself and using critical thinking to acquire new beliefs or change the old ones. You just need the flexibility to change your mind based on the evidence that is available to you. I would not be comfortable being stuck in my own beliefs in spite of all the evidence that I am wrong.

You took your own action to change your mind about something. No one charged your mind for you. You did your own research and made decisions for yourself based on that research. No one did that for you or to you. No one can change your inner beliefs except you.

pp was affected by information available to them - some pro Feng shui, some con Feng shui. pp analyzed the info and came to a conclusion. The information changed app's inner beliefs.

Yes, pp took action with researched information and changed their own inner beliefs. No one forced a change of inner beliefs on the pp. We can all change our inner beliefs if we choose to when we acquire new information, but no one can force us to change our inner beliefs.

What is an "inner" belief?

Is there such a thing as an "outer" belief?

I googled "inner beliefs" and what I got instead is "core beliefs." Here is one of the links that explain what core beliefs are:
https://eddinscounseling.com/uncover-core-beliefs-can-change/
Apparently, they are beliefs that you consider absolute truths (whether they are true or not). Changing them may require therapy. The Feng Shui case may not be a good example of core belief.

Anonymous wrote:I'm an atheist. Why would I care what someone who believes in fictional stories thinks about me? Doesn't insult me, doesn't offend me in the slightest.

Maybe because you use critical thinking and see context. They demonize your identity to make it easier for them as a group to hate you. Then they turn that hate into political action to advance their own interest against your interest.

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Anonymous wrote:Geez, are you the same poster who went on and on about feeling duped by that Shen Yun show? Atheist here, and I think you need to get a grip and let it go. Who the heck cares whether your belief system is associated with the devil in some people’s religions? Since I don’t believe in it, whatever, it’s like being associated with the tooth fairy or something.

They 100% are. And for those that are confused, no one in OP’s thread in the Entertainment forum said he didn’t have morals. You do not need to be religious to have morals. Otherwise we wouldn’t have millions of stories of religious men acting without morals.

Thank you for admitting the bolded part. I never claimed anything about what was said on the other thread. I just wanted to separate this discussion from that thread because there were several people saying that atheists should not be offended by any association with the Devil (because the Devil doesn't exist for them). It happens that I personally don't agree with that line of thought.

DP. From a religious point of view, your morals are meaningless. They likely have a teological origin rooted in observations and outcomes. In most, I hesitate to say all because I am not familiar with every religion, morals are derived from a divine source, either through enlightenment or direct communication with their Supreme Being. This deontological origin is troubling to some, because there is no why. It's just the rules that your religion asks you to follow. From a religious point of view, if your morals don't come from God, the only other choice is the hubris of man. To believe you can know the mind of God is sacrilegious in many religions.

Thank you for the additional background. Now back to the original question: should an atheist feel offended by the association with the Devil, or this association is just a tenderhearted, compassionate compliment?

I’m not atheist so let me flip this in order to answer. If an atheist told me that I’m a moron for believing in God, that there is no God, God ruins the world, my afterlife is just being worm food, etc, then no I won’t be offended. I don’t care - you can believe what you want. I’m happy and am assured with my faith.

If you want to flip the question, let's add some fictitious background. The atheists were in charge of the world and they prosecuted you for your beliefs throughout the history. You could be imprisoned, tortured, and / or burned alive because your beliefs. After millennia of prosecution, you are finally free to talk about your God and practice your religion. But there are still those people who call you a moron for believing in God, that there is no God, God ruins the world, my afterlife is just being worm food. Would that offend you?

No. As I said, I don’t care - you can believe what you want. I’m happy and am assured with my faith.

Can you see why an atheist might be offended by association with the Devil though?

At some point, you have to care only about yourself and your own beliefs and not care what other people think. People are different and have different beliefs. We can’t control other people’s beliefs: we just have to live our own lives the way we choose.

You may be able to live your life the way you choose, but not everyone can. Do you remember the fight to keep religion out of science classes? There is a supermajority of religious nuts on the supreme court who started ruling based on their religious beliefs. It is easy to suggest that everyone can live their lives the way they choose when that is clearly not an option.

Not thinking and worrying about what other people think of you has nothing to do with the Supreme Court. You can’t change other people’s beliefs, just as they can’t change yours. Not everyone is going to like you or agree with you and you are not going to like or agree with everyone else. It is life and you can’t go around getting upset that everyone else is not exact Like you or the other way around.

That is not true. I never thought that the position of the furniture in the room mattered. Then I heard about Feng Shui and I started to place my furniture accordingly. After a while I figured out what a nonsense I believed in and I stopped paying attention to the way I arrange my furniture. People change their beliefs all the time.

You changed your own belief. Someone else didn’t somehow go into your mind and change your beliefs.

I disagree. People who described Feng Shui on Internet made me aware of the practice. Initially it made sense that orienting your bed according to the Earth's poles may make a difference in your well-being. Without those people, I wouldn't have acquired that belief. It lasted for a while until I started reading opinions stating the opposite. It took a while to realize that my belief in Feng Shui was not supported by any type of evidence. It was these other people who convinced me that my belief in Feng Shui doesn't make sense. It's all about educating yourself and using critical thinking to acquire new beliefs or change the old ones. You just need the flexibility to change your mind based on the evidence that is available to you. I would not be comfortable being stuck in my own beliefs in spite of all the evidence that I am wrong.

You took your own action to change your mind about something. No one charged your mind for you. You did your own research and made decisions for yourself based on that research. No one did that for you or to you. No one can change your inner beliefs except you.

Have you been into any sensitivity training? Has anyone helped you understand your own biases? I would say that the people who ran those sessions changed your attitude. If you want to take credit for it, you can say that it was you who listened to them and changed your inner beliefs. But it is just a matter of semantics. They helped you understand that you can be a better person and you decided to be a better person.