Anonymous
Post 05/17/2022 11:37     Subject: How do we get top students (as defined by high school SAT and GPA) to enter public school teaching?
Anonymous wrote:I’m aware that this is a touchy subject. I know there’s also debate over whether teachers should be getting subject matter degrees then specializing in education in a master’s program, versus majoring in education as an undergraduate. My opinion is that that would need to take into account credential inflation and that students would need to pay more to become teachers than they previously needed to. Currently, universities that were historically and continue to ones that produce teachers have low average SAT scores, graduation rates and other factors.


1. Pay them better
2. Stop letting parents have so much control over everything in the school
3. Run it like a business.
Anonymous
Post 05/17/2022 11:35     Subject: How do we get top students (as defined by high school SAT and GPA) to enter public school teaching?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
One way that top students can be steered into public school teaching is through Teach for America. It's how one of my kids -- an honors graduate of a top 10 liberal arts college -- entered the field. While many TFA alums move on to other things, some don't -- including my kid and several others who I know well.

In the case of my kid, though, she was able to stay in the profession notwithstanding the relatively low pay because (1) she had no student loans and (2) her husband -- a graduate of the same college but with a less impressive college transcript -- went into private industry and almost immediately began making more money than her.


Teach for America really devalues the importance of training to creating effective teachers. I am sure your daughter and her friends have the best of intentions, but you don't learn to teach by going through a a brief course the summer before you're plunked into a classroom. And most of the TFA alumni I know didn't go back to learn how to teach. Some of them went to get MEds so they could go into administration, because those who can't do administrate.

Which gets to one of the main things that drive people from the profession: Being overseen and evaluated by things that don't reflect your ability by people who don't understand your job. That, and the low pay, are going to drain the pool of talent faster than anything else.



Teach for America teachers are college graduates who are required to enroll in graduate school to get a master's in teaching at the same time that they are "plunked into a classroom." You left a critical part of the program out when you were disparaging it. How much "training" does your typical college graduate with a bachelor's in teaching have before they're "plunked" into a classroom?




I had three 6 month long placements in three different classrooms as an undergrad. My TFA colleague had never been around kids prior to her first teaching gig. Big difference.


Right. And that's great. But the question originally posted was "how do we get top students (as defined by high school SAT and GPA) to enter public school teaching?" How many public school teachers who went your route had "high SATs and GPAs" in high school and were "top students?" All of the available statistics would suggest that the answer is very few. I'm not surprised you'd take offense that others ended up in your profession by going a different route. No, TFA isn't perfect -- far from it, in fact -- and yes, the program starts its participants off with less classroom experience that the typical first year teacher who went the traditional route, but TFA participants are, by and large, more driven than most college graduates and certainly, well, if I have to say it, "smarter" than your typical traditionally trained and educated teacher. AND, as I said, they're also required to get their master's degrees in education while they are working. It's not like they just hire a history major from Tufts and throw them in a classroom with zero training and zero expectation that they'll get any formal education or degree in teaching.

I personally know of several high school and college superstars who got into teaching through TFA and are sticking with it and prospering in the DMV. Honestly, and with all respect, the one issue that my daughter has sheepishly confided in me about the problems she faces in her day-to-day dealings with her colleagues and administrators is that she is obviously "smarter" than most of them. She certainly doesn't think that makes her "better" as a human being or anything like that, but she is certainly dealing with a less intellectually capable group of colleagues on a day-to-day basis as a public school teacher than she did as a college student at an elite college.
Anonymous
Post 05/17/2022 11:16     Subject: How do we get top students (as defined by high school SAT and GPA) to enter public school teaching?
They usually use it as a quick stopover before joining MBB. So virtuous
Anonymous
Post 05/17/2022 07:43     Subject: How do we get top students (as defined by high school SAT and GPA) to enter public school teaching?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
One way that top students can be steered into public school teaching is through Teach for America. It's how one of my kids -- an honors graduate of a top 10 liberal arts college -- entered the field. While many TFA alums move on to other things, some don't -- including my kid and several others who I know well.

In the case of my kid, though, she was able to stay in the profession notwithstanding the relatively low pay because (1) she had no student loans and (2) her husband -- a graduate of the same college but with a less impressive college transcript -- went into private industry and almost immediately began making more money than her.


Teach for America really devalues the importance of training to creating effective teachers. I am sure your daughter and her friends have the best of intentions, but you don't learn to teach by going through a a brief course the summer before you're plunked into a classroom. And most of the TFA alumni I know didn't go back to learn how to teach. Some of them went to get MEds so they could go into administration, because those who can't do administrate.

Which gets to one of the main things that drive people from the profession: Being overseen and evaluated by things that don't reflect your ability by people who don't understand your job. That, and the low pay, are going to drain the pool of talent faster than anything else.



Teach for America teachers are college graduates who are required to enroll in graduate school to get a master's in teaching at the same time that they are "plunked into a classroom." You left a critical part of the program out when you were disparaging it. How much "training" does your typical college graduate with a bachelor's in teaching have before they're "plunked" into a classroom?



TFA's own website makes clear how little practical experience its members are required to have before they start teaching. Short version: Much less than someone with a teaching certificate has.

https://www.teachforamerica.org/life-in-the-corps/corps-member-training

And while lots of TFAers do get MEds, that's an administrative degree, not one that gives them classroom skills.
Anonymous
Post 05/17/2022 07:36     Subject: Re:How do we get top students (as defined by high school SAT and GPA) to enter public school teaching?
Anonymous wrote:Is TFA even still around? The majority could not cut it as above posts state. Most lacked cultural competencies to work in the communities that they did. Think how little we think of poor children that we gave them completely unqualified teachers.


Without them, there would be nobody. They would be put into other classrooms and those teachers would be overwhelmed with an even larger class of low students. Then they would transfer or quit.
Anonymous
Post 05/17/2022 06:20     Subject: Re:How do we get top students (as defined by high school SAT and GPA) to enter public school teaching?
Is TFA even still around? The majority could not cut it as above posts state. Most lacked cultural competencies to work in the communities that they did. Think how little we think of poor children that we gave them completely unqualified teachers.
Anonymous
Post 05/17/2022 06:00     Subject: How do we get top students (as defined by high school SAT and GPA) to enter public school teaching?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
One way that top students can be steered into public school teaching is through Teach for America. It's how one of my kids -- an honors graduate of a top 10 liberal arts college -- entered the field. While many TFA alums move on to other things, some don't -- including my kid and several others who I know well.

In the case of my kid, though, she was able to stay in the profession notwithstanding the relatively low pay because (1) she had no student loans and (2) her husband -- a graduate of the same college but with a less impressive college transcript -- went into private industry and almost immediately began making more money than her.


Teach for America really devalues the importance of training to creating effective teachers. I am sure your daughter and her friends have the best of intentions, but you don't learn to teach by going through a a brief course the summer before you're plunked into a classroom. And most of the TFA alumni I know didn't go back to learn how to teach. Some of them went to get MEds so they could go into administration, because those who can't do administrate.

Which gets to one of the main things that drive people from the profession: Being overseen and evaluated by things that don't reflect your ability by people who don't understand your job. That, and the low pay, are going to drain the pool of talent faster than anything else.



Teach for America teachers are college graduates who are required to enroll in graduate school to get a master's in teaching at the same time that they are "plunked into a classroom." You left a critical part of the program out when you were disparaging it. How much "training" does your typical college graduate with a bachelor's in teaching have before they're "plunked" into a classroom?




I had three 6 month long placements in three different classrooms as an undergrad. My TFA colleague had never been around kids prior to her first teaching gig. Big difference.
Anonymous
Post 05/16/2022 21:13     Subject: How do we get top students (as defined by high school SAT and GPA) to enter public school teaching?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
One way that top students can be steered into public school teaching is through Teach for America. It's how one of my kids -- an honors graduate of a top 10 liberal arts college -- entered the field. While many TFA alums move on to other things, some don't -- including my kid and several others who I know well.

In the case of my kid, though, she was able to stay in the profession notwithstanding the relatively low pay because (1) she had no student loans and (2) her husband -- a graduate of the same college but with a less impressive college transcript -- went into private industry and almost immediately began making more money than her.


Teach for America really devalues the importance of training to creating effective teachers. I am sure your daughter and her friends have the best of intentions, but you don't learn to teach by going through a a brief course the summer before you're plunked into a classroom. And most of the TFA alumni I know didn't go back to learn how to teach. Some of them went to get MEds so they could go into administration, because those who can't do administrate.

Which gets to one of the main things that drive people from the profession: Being overseen and evaluated by things that don't reflect your ability by people who don't understand your job. That, and the low pay, are going to drain the pool of talent faster than anything else.



TFA is the epitome of white saviorism.


TFA is the epitome of white saviorism for college graduates looking to pad a resume before heading off to do something else, maybe -- but not for alums who stick with teaching as my kid did.
Anonymous
Post 05/16/2022 21:10     Subject: How do we get top students (as defined by high school SAT and GPA) to enter public school teaching?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
One way that top students can be steered into public school teaching is through Teach for America. It's how one of my kids -- an honors graduate of a top 10 liberal arts college -- entered the field. While many TFA alums move on to other things, some don't -- including my kid and several others who I know well.

In the case of my kid, though, she was able to stay in the profession notwithstanding the relatively low pay because (1) she had no student loans and (2) her husband -- a graduate of the same college but with a less impressive college transcript -- went into private industry and almost immediately began making more money than her.


Teach for America really devalues the importance of training to creating effective teachers. I am sure your daughter and her friends have the best of intentions, but you don't learn to teach by going through a a brief course the summer before you're plunked into a classroom. And most of the TFA alumni I know didn't go back to learn how to teach. Some of them went to get MEds so they could go into administration, because those who can't do administrate.

Which gets to one of the main things that drive people from the profession: Being overseen and evaluated by things that don't reflect your ability by people who don't understand your job. That, and the low pay, are going to drain the pool of talent faster than anything else.



Teach for America teachers are college graduates who are required to enroll in graduate school to get a master's in teaching at the same time that they are "plunked into a classroom." You left a critical part of the program out when you were disparaging it. How much "training" does your typical college graduate with a bachelor's in teaching have before they're "plunked" into a classroom?

Anonymous
Post 05/16/2022 21:03     Subject: Re:How do we get top students (as defined by high school SAT and GPA) to enter public school teaching?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I'm an elementary school teacher. You aren't going to get these people into education unless a lot of changes are made first. Here are a few:

1) Pay them what they would be paid if they chose another profession. I'm in year 15 of teaching. I have a Master's plus I don't know how many more credits. My DS just graduated from college last year and already makes more than I do (and he isn't in engineering or CS).

2) Pay for their undergrad degree or highly subsidize it.

3) Get rid of the higher-ups in education who haven't taught for at least 10 yrs prior to moving into admin. Basically, the people making the big decisions need to be a lot more in touch with teaching.

4) Enforce rules with consequences. Make it no-nonsense like my son's former Catholic school.



True, just because some can test well on the SAT and have a high GPA doesn't mean that person has good communication and people management skills.


I agree. Becoming an admin is way too easy. You should be required to teach at least 10 years before becoming an admin.



I'm the teacher who posted above. In many countries, the principal or head of school is called a lead teacher because they actually still teach while having admin duties. Also, I want to add that the best teachers I have worked with aren't necessarily the smartest. We have had many, many, many TFA people at our school over the years. The colleges they attended are very impressive however they quit way before the first school year ended. They couldn't deal with classroom management and the workload. Top grades and test scores don't mean much when you can't teach your students because you can't manage them.
Anonymous
Post 05/16/2022 20:58     Subject: Re:How do we get top students (as defined by high school SAT and GPA) to enter public school teaching?
Anonymous wrote:Standardized curriculum, standardized textbooks, standardized syllabus. Aides in each classroom. Teachers should not be responsible for classroom discipline. Aides and administrators need to handle discipline.

Standardized assignments, tests should be sent home after grading, parental involvement should be a must. Countywide or statewide final exams after each semester.

Extend the school year slightly, with breaks between each quarter.

Teachers need to be paid more and should have the right to remove 10% of disruptive students from their classroom.


CO and admin found this thread. We have most of this now and it’s what is driving people out of teaching.

We all must give the same syllabus, assignments and tests. We have districts tests created for us that must be given. For the data… The school year is slowly being extended with all of the religious holidays that are being added.

We can’t remove disruptive students, but they aren’t the problem and why teachers are leaving the profession. It’s the other suggestions here.
Anonymous
Post 05/16/2022 20:38     Subject: How do we get top students (as defined by high school SAT and GPA) to enter public school teaching?
The disconnect between decision makers and school leaders & teachers is a huge factor that erodes the quality of education and demoralizes teachers. Eliminating many central office positions and giving more autonomy to principals and teachers is the key.
Anonymous
Post 05/16/2022 20:28     Subject: Re:How do we get top students (as defined by high school SAT and GPA) to enter public school teaching?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Standardized curriculum, standardized textbooks, standardized syllabus. Aides in each classroom. Teachers should not be responsible for classroom discipline. Aides and administrators need to handle discipline.

Standardized assignments, tests should be sent home after grading, parental involvement should be a must. Countywide or statewide final exams after each semester.

Extend the school year slightly, with breaks between each quarter.

Teachers need to be paid more and should have the right to remove 10% of disruptive students from their classroom.


I'm not sure why you think standardization would make teaching a more appealing career. The teachers I know want more autonomy


The teachers you know are not the best and the brightest because those people are not teaching. Standardizing is less work for teachers and the successful ones are going to stand out easily - those are the ones you want to keep.

But the PP hit the nail on the head with their response.
Anonymous
Post 05/16/2022 15:43     Subject: Re:How do we get top students (as defined by high school SAT and GPA) to enter public school teaching?
Anonymous wrote:Standardized curriculum, standardized textbooks, standardized syllabus. Aides in each classroom. Teachers should not be responsible for classroom discipline. Aides and administrators need to handle discipline.

Standardized assignments, tests should be sent home after grading, parental involvement should be a must. Countywide or statewide final exams after each semester.

Extend the school year slightly, with breaks between each quarter.

Teachers need to be paid more and should have the right to remove 10% of disruptive students from their classroom.


I'm not sure why you think standardization would make teaching a more appealing career. The teachers I know want more autonomy
Anonymous
Post 05/16/2022 15:09     Subject: Re:How do we get top students (as defined by high school SAT and GPA) to enter public school teaching?
My high achiever children have been lucky to have a dedicated all-subject tutor from K-12, who was top student with high SAT, GPA and multiple degrees. Their Stay At Home Mom!!