Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Feminism is about supporting women’s agency in making choices for their own lives, whatever they may be. If an MIL is a real feminist, she’ll embrace her DIL the way she is and become her supporter. I can’t think of a better gift than unconditional acceptance from any parent, no matter how they met their new child, by giving birth, by adoption or by law.

this is a relatively new concept in the women’s movement. My mother fought for women to be able to stay in the workplace after marriage and children as she was forced out of her job after becoming pregnant with me in 1964. In the 70’s women were finally able to get credit cards in their name. In the 1960’s women could get the pill IF they had permission of their husband. Unmarried women could not get it. These are the things she and others fought for. Many have trouble when a daughter or DIL chooses to sah because if feels like a betrayal to them for all the hard work it took to be able to be in the workplace. My mother had a really hard time when I quit to SAH - and my children have SN -something DCUM tends to forgive if someone SAH when children are in school. She understood it intellectually- but emotionally it was difficult for her.I think of her as a real feminist even if you do not.

My generation had a hard time with SAH because we were supposed to be the Enjoli generation, (bring home the bacon, fry it up in the pan and never let you forget your a man….’ We were told we could have it all and we could do it all. We had the hatchback babies - my son was born at noon on Monday and we were released at 9am Tuesday and no parental leave (paid or unpaid). I still have my $.59 pin - I think women are now over $.75 to men’s $1 now. That is progress.

My hope for the next wave is toward more equitable and affordable childcare options. I like that this generation has more options for parental leave for everyone.

I’m sorry but no, you can’t have it all. The truth is your relationships with your children will just not be as close if you aren’t around. That’s the hard fact. Are you really going to wish you’d spent more time at work being a corporate monkey or some other such thing? I know I won’t. I won’t ever regret investing time into the relationship with my children.

+1000. “Having it all” is yet another lie of the left.

Literally sitting next to my mom right now, who is one of my best friends. Guess I better tell her we aren’t as close as we think, because she worked outside of the home. And she didn’t even have to, she chose to! Bad mom, bad. (Yes, she’s a liberal).

My bet is that she did not work in some high power career that took her away from the family for many hours a week.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Feminism is about supporting women’s agency in making choices for their own lives, whatever they may be. If an MIL is a real feminist, she’ll embrace her DIL the way she is and become her supporter. I can’t think of a better gift than unconditional acceptance from any parent, no matter how they met their new child, by giving birth, by adoption or by law.

this is a relatively new concept in the women’s movement. My mother fought for women to be able to stay in the workplace after marriage and children as she was forced out of her job after becoming pregnant with me in 1964. In the 70’s women were finally able to get credit cards in their name. In the 1960’s women could get the pill IF they had permission of their husband. Unmarried women could not get it. These are the things she and others fought for. Many have trouble when a daughter or DIL chooses to sah because if feels like a betrayal to them for all the hard work it took to be able to be in the workplace. My mother had a really hard time when I quit to SAH - and my children have SN -something DCUM tends to forgive if someone SAH when children are in school. She understood it intellectually- but emotionally it was difficult for her.I think of her as a real feminist even if you do not.

My generation had a hard time with SAH because we were supposed to be the Enjoli generation, (bring home the bacon, fry it up in the pan and never let you forget your a man….’ We were told we could have it all and we could do it all. We had the hatchback babies - my son was born at noon on Monday and we were released at 9am Tuesday and no parental leave (paid or unpaid). I still have my $.59 pin - I think women are now over $.75 to men’s $1 now. That is progress.

My hope for the next wave is toward more equitable and affordable childcare options. I like that this generation has more options for parental leave for everyone.

I’m sorry but no, you can’t have it all. The truth is your relationships with your children will just not be as close if you aren’t around. That’s the hard fact. Are you really going to wish you’d spent more time at work being a corporate monkey or some other such thing? I know I won’t. I won’t ever regret investing time into the relationship with my children.

+1000. “Having it all” is yet another lie of the left.

Literally sitting next to my mom right now, who is one of my best friends. Guess I better tell her we aren’t as close as we think, because she worked outside of the home. And she didn’t even have to, she chose to! Bad mom, bad. (Yes, she’s a liberal).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Free daycare isn’t the answer, long term parent leave is.

This. I’m so tired of people treating daycare, especially for infants, as some gold standard to which we should all aspire. Even the most loving daycare worker only has so many arms, and with multiple infants competing for her time, none of them is getting the absolute best in infant care. Western societies, especially, devalue stable family life and make production of goods and services the goal. So, instead of encouraging more family time, we’ve told ourselves it’s best to farm the children out to others so we can get back to “being productive.” As I get older, I realize I won’t be on my deathbed wishing I’d been “more productive” -society won’t be there to hold my hand, but hopefully, my family will.

Yes! Thank you. Well put. I feel the exact same way. No one can hold my babies and raise my children as well as I can. My sister tried to tell me years ago that it’s not about quantity of time, but quality of time. What a bunch of crappy she was trying to feed herself to justify her own bad decisions. Her kid was always a mess. Yes, it’s about quality. But 15 minutes of quality time at the end of the day when you are putting your kid to bed after they’ve spent 10-12 hours in childcare (before care, after care, whatever) doesn’t equal being an engaged presence in the home and in their lives.

I’m the PP you are quoting. While I do agree it’s quantity AND quality time that count, some of us do have to work. I am paying off student debt and a huge medical debt from a prior illness. Don’t paint too broad a stroke that working is just someone’s bad decision. From where I sit, though, I do understand that being in the work force comes at a definite cost. I have also met some SAHMs who are mailing it in, so SAH does not automatically connote some sort of virtue status in my book. There are lazy or disengaged people in both groups. My gripe is not about picking apart individuals and their choices; rather, I’m commenting on the overall system we are all a part of. What are its goals? And how much does the system really contribute to or hinder the flourishing of the individual and the communities in which we live?

In my sister’s case, it was purely bad decisions. 😉 not even work related.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Feminism is about supporting women’s agency in making choices for their own lives, whatever they may be. If an MIL is a real feminist, she’ll embrace her DIL the way she is and become her supporter. I can’t think of a better gift than unconditional acceptance from any parent, no matter how they met their new child, by giving birth, by adoption or by law.

this is a relatively new concept in the women’s movement. My mother fought for women to be able to stay in the workplace after marriage and children as she was forced out of her job after becoming pregnant with me in 1964. In the 70’s women were finally able to get credit cards in their name. In the 1960’s women could get the pill IF they had permission of their husband. Unmarried women could not get it. These are the things she and others fought for. Many have trouble when a daughter or DIL chooses to sah because if feels like a betrayal to them for all the hard work it took to be able to be in the workplace. My mother had a really hard time when I quit to SAH - and my children have SN -something DCUM tends to forgive if someone SAH when children are in school. She understood it intellectually- but emotionally it was difficult for her.I think of her as a real feminist even if you do not.

My generation had a hard time with SAH because we were supposed to be the Enjoli generation, (bring home the bacon, fry it up in the pan and never let you forget your a man….’ We were told we could have it all and we could do it all. We had the hatchback babies - my son was born at noon on Monday and we were released at 9am Tuesday and no parental leave (paid or unpaid). I still have my $.59 pin - I think women are now over $.75 to men’s $1 now. That is progress.

My hope for the next wave is toward more equitable and affordable childcare options. I like that this generation has more options for parental leave for everyone.

I’m sorry but no, you can’t have it all. The truth is your relationships with your children will just not be as close if you aren’t around. That’s the hard fact. Are you really going to wish you’d spent more time at work being a corporate monkey or some other such thing? I know I won’t. I won’t ever regret investing time into the relationship with my children.

+1000. “Having it all” is yet another lie of the left.

No, it the lie of the right, because many of them do and believe that means everyone can, and if they don't, it's their own fault. The left knows most of us have far, far less than "it all" and working to help make life easier with parental leave, healthcare, child tax credits, universal preK, etc.

But I thought the most educated and rich among us were mostly liberals these days? A lot of conservatives are actually working class families like you are describing the left to be. It’s flip flopped.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Free daycare isn’t the answer, long term parent leave is.

This. I’m so tired of people treating daycare, especially for infants, as some gold standard to which we should all aspire. Even the most loving daycare worker only has so many arms, and with multiple infants competing for her time, none of them is getting the absolute best in infant care. Western societies, especially, devalue stable family life and make production of goods and services the goal. So, instead of encouraging more family time, we’ve told ourselves it’s best to farm the children out to others so we can get back to “being productive.” As I get older, I realize I won’t be on my deathbed wishing I’d been “more productive” -society won’t be there to hold my hand, but hopefully, my family will.

Yes! Thank you. Well put. I feel the exact same way. No one can hold my babies and raise my children as well as I can. My sister tried to tell me years ago that it’s not about quantity of time, but quality of time. What a bunch of crappy she was trying to feed herself to justify her own bad decisions. Her kid was always a mess. Yes, it’s about quality. But 15 minutes of quality time at the end of the day when you are putting your kid to bed after they’ve spent 10-12 hours in childcare (before care, after care, whatever) doesn’t equal being an engaged presence in the home and in their lives.

I’m the PP you are quoting. While I do agree it’s quantity AND quality time that count, some of us do have to work. I am paying off student debt and a huge medical debt from a prior illness. Don’t paint too broad a stroke that working is just someone’s bad decision. From where I sit, though, I do understand that being in the work force comes at a definite cost. I have also met some SAHMs who are mailing it in, so SAH does not automatically connote some sort of virtue status in my book. There are lazy or disengaged people in both groups. My gripe is not about picking apart individuals and their choices; rather, I’m commenting on the overall system we are all a part of. What are its goals? And how much does the system really contribute to or hinder the flourishing of the individual and the communities in which we live?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Feminism is about supporting women’s agency in making choices for their own lives, whatever they may be. If an MIL is a real feminist, she’ll embrace her DIL the way she is and become her supporter. I can’t think of a better gift than unconditional acceptance from any parent, no matter how they met their new child, by giving birth, by adoption or by law.

this is a relatively new concept in the women’s movement. My mother fought for women to be able to stay in the workplace after marriage and children as she was forced out of her job after becoming pregnant with me in 1964. In the 70’s women were finally able to get credit cards in their name. In the 1960’s women could get the pill IF they had permission of their husband. Unmarried women could not get it. These are the things she and others fought for. Many have trouble when a daughter or DIL chooses to sah because if feels like a betrayal to them for all the hard work it took to be able to be in the workplace. My mother had a really hard time when I quit to SAH - and my children have SN -something DCUM tends to forgive if someone SAH when children are in school. She understood it intellectually- but emotionally it was difficult for her.I think of her as a real feminist even if you do not.

My generation had a hard time with SAH because we were supposed to be the Enjoli generation, (bring home the bacon, fry it up in the pan and never let you forget your a man….’ We were told we could have it all and we could do it all. We had the hatchback babies - my son was born at noon on Monday and we were released at 9am Tuesday and no parental leave (paid or unpaid). I still have my $.59 pin - I think women are now over $.75 to men’s $1 now. That is progress.

My hope for the next wave is toward more equitable and affordable childcare options. I like that this generation has more options for parental leave for everyone.

I’m sorry but no, you can’t have it all. The truth is your relationships with your children will just not be as close if you aren’t around. That’s the hard fact. Are you really going to wish you’d spent more time at work being a corporate monkey or some other such thing? I know I won’t. I won’t ever regret investing time into the relationship with my children.

+1000. “Having it all” is yet another lie of the left.

No, it the lie of the right, because many of them do and believe that means everyone can, and if they don't, it's their own fault. The left knows most of us have far, far less than "it all" and working to help make life easier with parental leave, healthcare, child tax credits, universal preK, etc.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Free daycare isn’t the answer, long term parent leave is.

This. I’m so tired of people treating daycare, especially for infants, as some gold standard to which we should all aspire. Even the most loving daycare worker only has so many arms, and with multiple infants competing for her time, none of them is getting the absolute best in infant care. Western societies, especially, devalue stable family life and make production of goods and services the goal. So, instead of encouraging more family time, we’ve told ourselves it’s best to farm the children out to others so we can get back to “being productive.” As I get older, I realize I won’t be on my deathbed wishing I’d been “more productive” -society won’t be there to hold my hand, but hopefully, my family will.

Yes! Thank you. Well put. I feel the exact same way. No one can hold my babies and raise my children as well as I can. My sister tried to tell me years ago that it’s not about quantity of time, but quality of time. What a bunch of crappy she was trying to feed herself to justify her own bad decisions. Her kid was always a mess. Yes, it’s about quality. But 15 minutes of quality time at the end of the day when you are putting your kid to bed after they’ve spent 10-12 hours in childcare (before care, after care, whatever) doesn’t equal being an engaged presence in the home and in their lives.

Anonymous wrote:Free daycare isn’t the answer, long term parent leave is.

This. I’m so tired of people treating daycare, especially for infants, as some gold standard to which we should all aspire. Even the most loving daycare worker only has so many arms, and with multiple infants competing for her time, none of them is getting the absolute best in infant care. Western societies, especially, devalue stable family life and make production of goods and services the goal. So, instead of encouraging more family time, we’ve told ourselves it’s best to farm the children out to others so we can get back to “being productive.” As I get older, I realize I won’t be on my deathbed wishing I’d been “more productive” -society won’t be there to hold my hand, but hopefully, my family will.

Anonymous wrote:Free daycare isn’t the answer, long term parent leave is.

Good extended family and community networks can help too but yes, children deserve people who decided to bring them into this world, not hired help or volunteer substitutes.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Feminism is about supporting women’s agency in making choices for their own lives, whatever they may be. If an MIL is a real feminist, she’ll embrace her DIL the way she is and become her supporter. I can’t think of a better gift than unconditional acceptance from any parent, no matter how they met their new child, by giving birth, by adoption or by law.

this is a relatively new concept in the women’s movement. My mother fought for women to be able to stay in the workplace after marriage and children as she was forced out of her job after becoming pregnant with me in 1964. In the 70’s women were finally able to get credit cards in their name. In the 1960’s women could get the pill IF they had permission of their husband. Unmarried women could not get it. These are the things she and others fought for. Many have trouble when a daughter or DIL chooses to sah because if feels like a betrayal to them for all the hard work it took to be able to be in the workplace. My mother had a really hard time when I quit to SAH - and my children have SN -something DCUM tends to forgive if someone SAH when children are in school. She understood it intellectually- but emotionally it was difficult for her.I think of her as a real feminist even if you do not.

My generation had a hard time with SAH because we were supposed to be the Enjoli generation, (bring home the bacon, fry it up in the pan and never let you forget your a man….’ We were told we could have it all and we could do it all. We had the hatchback babies - my son was born at noon on Monday and we were released at 9am Tuesday and no parental leave (paid or unpaid). I still have my $.59 pin - I think women are now over $.75 to men’s $1 now. That is progress.

My hope for the next wave is toward more equitable and affordable childcare options. I like that this generation has more options for parental leave for everyone.

I’m sorry but no, you can’t have it all. The truth is your relationships with your children will just not be as close if you aren’t around. That’s the hard fact. Are you really going to wish you’d spent more time at work being a corporate monkey or some other such thing? I know I won’t. I won’t ever regret investing time into the relationship with my children.

+1000. “Having it all” is yet another lie of the left.

No human can have it all. Life doesn’t work that way. If you are having it all then either your wife, husband, employer, colleagues , children or parents are the one who aren’t getting it what they need from you.

Free daycare isn’t the answer, long term parent leave is.

It doesn’t matter if it’s mother or father who does it or both but if you want children, leaving them in daycares or with Nannie’s for most of their waking hours is just not fair. It’s fine if you don’t want to or can afford to spend time on child rearing but then use birth control.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Feminism is about supporting women’s agency in making choices for their own lives, whatever they may be. If an MIL is a real feminist, she’ll embrace her DIL the way she is and become her supporter. I can’t think of a better gift than unconditional acceptance from any parent, no matter how they met their new child, by giving birth, by adoption or by law.

this is a relatively new concept in the women’s movement. My mother fought for women to be able to stay in the workplace after marriage and children as she was forced out of her job after becoming pregnant with me in 1964. In the 70’s women were finally able to get credit cards in their name. In the 1960’s women could get the pill IF they had permission of their husband. Unmarried women could not get it. These are the things she and others fought for. Many have trouble when a daughter or DIL chooses to sah because if feels like a betrayal to them for all the hard work it took to be able to be in the workplace. My mother had a really hard time when I quit to SAH - and my children have SN -something DCUM tends to forgive if someone SAH when children are in school. She understood it intellectually- but emotionally it was difficult for her.I think of her as a real feminist even if you do not.

My generation had a hard time with SAH because we were supposed to be the Enjoli generation, (bring home the bacon, fry it up in the pan and never let you forget your a man….’ We were told we could have it all and we could do it all. We had the hatchback babies - my son was born at noon on Monday and we were released at 9am Tuesday and no parental leave (paid or unpaid). I still have my $.59 pin - I think women are now over $.75 to men’s $1 now. That is progress.

My hope for the next wave is toward more equitable and affordable childcare options. I like that this generation has more options for parental leave for everyone.

I’m sorry but no, you can’t have it all. The truth is your relationships with your children will just not be as close if you aren’t around. That’s the hard fact. Are you really going to wish you’d spent more time at work being a corporate monkey or some other such thing? I know I won’t. I won’t ever regret investing time into the relationship with my children.

+1000. “Having it all” is yet another lie of the left.

Listen, everyone is different. I was a feminist my whole life and never expected to be a SAHM. Then I became one partially by choice (partially because sometimes your choices are garbage) and even though I was already a feminist, the experience was eye opening and radicalizing in terms of realizing the degree to which our society, including a lot of mainstream feminism, just ignores/dismisses/devalues care work. Like as I became friends with the neighborhood nannies and also listened to my friends who were returning to work talk about childcare and mothering, I realized a lot of us (me included) just have some very effed up misogynist ideas baked into our supposedly feminist ideas about labor and money and equality.

Now I'm working again but I carry that experience with me every day. For instance, I never refer to myself as a "working mom" except in the sense that we are all working moms. This phrase by itself totally ignores the work of caring for children or homes. All mothers are working mothers, and while sure there are SAHMs who don't labor that hard (due to privilege) there are also WOHM who don't labor that hard either (due to privilege). But simply being a mom is work.

But more than that, I have really come to embrace much more radical ideas about feminism, labor, and the social contract. I think a lot of the feminism I embraced when I was a young, childless, professional had been heavily filtered through capitalist ideals designed to extract as much value from laborers as possible. One thing I wound up loving about being a SAHM was how much of my labor benefitted society and my family but didn't earn some rich shareholder a dime. Including some of the crunchy SAHM activities that a lot of women will look down on as regressive. I know how this will sound, but breastfeeding, making your own baby food, and getting all your kids clothes and toys from buy-nothing groups or consignment shops owned and run by women feels effing powerful. It is a reminder that we are all a lot more competent and resourceful than contemporary capitalism would like us to believe, and that if you retake one of your most precious resources (TIME) you actually need a lot fewer consumer goods than you think.

I know, I know. My point is that being a SAHP gets painted as this freeloading activity, but if you've ever actually done if for any length of time, you might discover it's the opposite. I felt really liberated during that time. I returned to work because my family needed more money and also because I derive s significant part of my sense of self from my professional life. But I've never forgotten what it is to just feel divorced from capitalism for a bit. I think an MIL (or DIL) who understands that experience might be more supportive of of women who make different choices in this area because it's really not a binary of WOHM/feminist versus SAHM/regressive. At all.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Feminism is about supporting women’s agency in making choices for their own lives, whatever they may be. If an MIL is a real feminist, she’ll embrace her DIL the way she is and become her supporter. I can’t think of a better gift than unconditional acceptance from any parent, no matter how they met their new child, by giving birth, by adoption or by law.

this is a relatively new concept in the women’s movement. My mother fought for women to be able to stay in the workplace after marriage and children as she was forced out of her job after becoming pregnant with me in 1964. In the 70’s women were finally able to get credit cards in their name. In the 1960’s women could get the pill IF they had permission of their husband. Unmarried women could not get it. These are the things she and others fought for. Many have trouble when a daughter or DIL chooses to sah because if feels like a betrayal to them for all the hard work it took to be able to be in the workplace. My mother had a really hard time when I quit to SAH - and my children have SN -something DCUM tends to forgive if someone SAH when children are in school. She understood it intellectually- but emotionally it was difficult for her.I think of her as a real feminist even if you do not.

My generation had a hard time with SAH because we were supposed to be the Enjoli generation, (bring home the bacon, fry it up in the pan and never let you forget your a man….’ We were told we could have it all and we could do it all. We had the hatchback babies - my son was born at noon on Monday and we were released at 9am Tuesday and no parental leave (paid or unpaid). I still have my $.59 pin - I think women are now over $.75 to men’s $1 now. That is progress.

My hope for the next wave is toward more equitable and affordable childcare options. I like that this generation has more options for parental leave for everyone.

I’m sorry but no, you can’t have it all. The truth is your relationships with your children will just not be as close if you aren’t around. That’s the hard fact. Are you really going to wish you’d spent more time at work being a corporate monkey or some other such thing? I know I won’t. I won’t ever regret investing time into the relationship with my children.