Anonymous wrote:My wife was way hotter than the woman I cheated with. I never said a bad word about her, never have to anyone. She’s pretty much perfect in every way and I still cheated on her. It’s something I will always regret doing. Therapy really helped me get my head straight.

So what was the reason you cheated on her then, if you state she was perfect in every way?

Men love with their hearts, but their junk is heartless. It only lusts.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes. But, how you will know is how they deal with the aftermath and what happens to the relationship going forward. If there was a very loving foundation, chemistry, true friendship prior and the couple rebuilds and goes onto thrive--the love was real. EVERY long and overall happy marriage will be faced with some sort of test along the way that could nearly break it. This is one of those variations (if the person isn't serial--and it didn't happen at the start).

If the person leaves, stonewalls, continues, shifts blame, denigrates, is not supportive, etc., no the love was not real (at least for the cheater).

Are you on crack? Infidelity is a serious betrayal and a form of emotional abuse under any circumstances. Women are not obliged to stay in a relationship after such abuse and betrayal no matter how much they may have loved, had chemistry and been friends with their partner. Nor are they obliged to stay even if the affair perpetrator “seems remorseful” and “wants to rebuild”. The true test of marriage is not accepting and continuing it after abuse. That’s like saying you should stay with a partner who hits you, just because they said sorry and cried and promised never to do it again.

These love survives abuse justifications/myths make me nauseous.

You jumped the gun. Physical/emotional abuse is different than a midlife infidelity. If the person was a loving spouse and monogamous for 20 years and messed up for a few months—and has great shame, remorse and commits to therapy/change, I do not see that as abuse. It is up to the betrayed partner and the level of deception/trauma and overall marriage if they choose to reconcile. But, yes, it’s free will. Nobody is forcing a victim to stay married in any circumstance.

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote] Anonymous wrote:
[b]I think people cheat because they feel unloved, unappreciated, undesired. [/b]

Yes, they may still love their partner very much. Even be in love with them and want to stay in the marriage. [b]But some of their fundamental needs are going unmet so they cheat to feel satisfied again. To feel like it’s ok for them to have needs, which are often getting shut down due to issues in the primary relationship. [b]

It just isn’t so black and white like you love someone and so you don’t want anyone else. [/b]I really believe that if your needs are satisfied and you feel good then cheating won’t be appealing[b] — why put in the energy? If people do there has to be a reason.[/quote]

This is complete BS and you are a cheater’s apologist. Read this thread. Many, many people cheat because of childhood trauma, sexual abuse, narcissism, mania, etc. Despite what open marriage guy wants you to believe, cheating almost never has anything to do with the spouse.[/quote]

I didn’t say it had to do with the spouse. I think if your needs are not being met in the relationship you need to do some work to dig deeper and look at why. Maybe it has to do with your spouse. Maybe it’s you. Maybe it’s the dynamic.

Regardless, we are talking about two different things. I’m talking about why people feel motivated to cheat. Why the desire exists. You’re talking about why in the sense of a justification.[/quote]

NO. You cannot place that on the spouse. Some of these people who didn't have mommy or daddy's attention, or one of them walked out on the family, or there was an alcoholic parent (and the family learned to lie to cover for it--which sets the pattern for ease with lying and compartmentalization), domestic or emotional abuse in the home. These people grow up in midlife and equate 'DRAMA' or 'STRIFE' with being loved or 'family'. So--when their home life is stable and everything is good at home---they seek out the drama and external validation from outside partners. The feeling of unease and thrill and lying. People like this can have the best spouse in the world, AND still be having sex at home. Nobody would be able to fill their deficiencies---no matter how smart, intelligent, loving and sexy--over time. These people need to address their inner void. Brain imaging scans show that kids that suffered that type of strife in their childhood homes have actual brain changes, pre-narcissism ,bpd, etc. Continued therapy to address their coping skills and to address their inner child and void can make them whole again. The problem is, so many of these people completely blow up their lives/relationships instead of doing this hard work---and/or they think nothing is wrong with them--it's always someone else's fault.

[/quote]

Right. And that’s why I said they have to dig deeper and maybe it’s them.

Sometimes it’s not though. [/b]Sometimes it is the spouse.[b] I mean surely you can accommodate different life situations in your view of the world? I’m not saying if it is the spouse that justifies cheating. But if you want to get to the root cause of a behavior, consider both internal and external factors.[/quote]

NP. I am very disturbed by your inability to acknowledge that your framing is just a way of blaming the spouse.

In a mature, adult relationship, people express their needs explicitly and verbally and negotiate for them to be met. In a mature, adult relationship, people acknowledge that one partner is not going to be able to meet all their needs and they negotiate about or create the other relationships in their life that meet those needs - but in a monogamous marriage that is done explicitly, transparently and honestly and can involve other non-sexual friendships and activities and, by mutual partner consent, other sexual relationship (which can vary widely in type and May or may not involve third parties).

A core part of the work that many abusers have to do in therapy is to stop blaming others for their feelings and explore the connection between what happens to them and in their life and why they respond with certain feelings and whether those feelings are reasonably sized, appropriate for the situation, provoke effective response/solutions and are manageable.

Your view - that another Human #1 is responsible for Human #2’s happiness, fulfillment of all/any needs, to feel loved, desired, etc. — is at its core the belief that drives abuse. I literally do not have the power to make another human being feel any specific feeling. I may send my actions into the world with the intention of making another person feel loved, but the reality is that how my actions are received and interpreted is solely within the control of the recipient.


Your logic is no different than saying that a woman who is hit by a man because he feels angry or insulted or ill-served is the cause of his abuse. [/quote]

I agree with all that. You seem to not have room in your picture for the idea that a woman who is being abused in a relationship might seek comfort outside of it. Or a man. I think you need to look at why you’re so resistant to that possibility, which to me seems totally understandable and fits within everything you’ve said. Some people aren’t capable of relationships and if you’re married to one of them but don’t want to leave because of the kids or for financial reasons maybe you would seek love elsewhere.

Anonymous wrote:Yes. But, how you will know is how they deal with the aftermath and what happens to the relationship going forward. If there was a very loving foundation, chemistry, true friendship prior and the couple rebuilds and goes onto thrive--the love was real. EVERY long and overall happy marriage will be faced with some sort of test along the way that could nearly break it. This is one of those variations (if the person isn't serial--and it didn't happen at the start).

If the person leaves, stonewalls, continues, shifts blame, denigrates, is not supportive, etc., no the love was not real (at least for the cheater).

Are you on crack? Infidelity is a serious betrayal and a form of emotional abuse under any circumstances. Women are not obliged to stay in a relationship after such abuse and betrayal no matter how much they may have loved, had chemistry and been friends with their partner. Nor are they obliged to stay even if the affair perpetrator “seems remorseful” and “wants to rebuild”. The true test of marriage is not accepting and continuing it after abuse. That’s like saying you should stay with a partner who hits you, just because they said sorry and cried and promised never to do it again.

These love survives abuse justifications/myths make me nauseous.

Anonymous wrote:Yes. But, how you will know is how they deal with the aftermath and what happens to the relationship going forward. If there was a very loving foundation, chemistry, true friendship prior and the couple rebuilds and goes onto thrive--the love was real. EVERY long and overall happy marriage will be faced with some sort of test along the way that could nearly break it. This is one of those variations (if the person isn't serial--and it didn't happen at the start).

If the person leaves, stonewalls, continues, shifts blame, denigrates, is not supportive, etc., no the love was not real (at least for the cheater).

And, of course, lots of therapy for individuals and couple in this scenario.

Yes. But, how you will know is how they deal with the aftermath and what happens to the relationship going forward. If there was a very loving foundation, chemistry, true friendship prior and the couple rebuilds and goes onto thrive--the love was real. EVERY long and overall happy marriage will be faced with some sort of test along the way that could nearly break it. This is one of those variations (if the person isn't serial--and it didn't happen at the start).

If the person leaves, stonewalls, continues, shifts blame, denigrates, is not supportive, etc., no the love was not real (at least for the cheater).

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote] Anonymous wrote:
[b]I think people cheat because they feel unloved, unappreciated, undesired. [/b]

Yes, they may still love their partner very much. Even be in love with them and want to stay in the marriage. [b]But some of their fundamental needs are going unmet so they cheat to feel satisfied again. To feel like it’s ok for them to have needs, which are often getting shut down due to issues in the primary relationship. [b]

It just isn’t so black and white like you love someone and so you don’t want anyone else. [/b]I really believe that if your needs are satisfied and you feel good then cheating won’t be appealing[b] — why put in the energy? If people do there has to be a reason.[/quote]

This is complete BS and you are a cheater’s apologist. Read this thread. Many, many people cheat because of childhood trauma, sexual abuse, narcissism, mania, etc. Despite what open marriage guy wants you to believe, cheating almost never has anything to do with the spouse.[/quote]

I didn’t say it had to do with the spouse. I think if your needs are not being met in the relationship you need to do some work to dig deeper and look at why. Maybe it has to do with your spouse. Maybe it’s you. Maybe it’s the dynamic.

Regardless, we are talking about two different things. I’m talking about why people feel motivated to cheat. Why the desire exists. You’re talking about why in the sense of a justification.[/quote]

NO. You cannot place that on the spouse. Some of these people who didn't have mommy or daddy's attention, or one of them walked out on the family, or there was an alcoholic parent (and the family learned to lie to cover for it--which sets the pattern for ease with lying and compartmentalization), domestic or emotional abuse in the home. These people grow up in midlife and equate 'DRAMA' or 'STRIFE' with being loved or 'family'. So--when their home life is stable and everything is good at home---they seek out the drama and external validation from outside partners. The feeling of unease and thrill and lying. People like this can have the best spouse in the world, AND still be having sex at home. Nobody would be able to fill their deficiencies---no matter how smart, intelligent, loving and sexy--over time. These people need to address their inner void. Brain imaging scans show that kids that suffered that type of strife in their childhood homes have actual brain changes, pre-narcissism ,bpd, etc. Continued therapy to address their coping skills and to address their inner child and void can make them whole again. The problem is, so many of these people completely blow up their lives/relationships instead of doing this hard work---and/or they think nothing is wrong with them--it's always someone else's fault.

[/quote]

Right. And that’s why I said they have to dig deeper and maybe it’s them.

Sometimes it’s not though. [/b]Sometimes it is the spouse.[b] I mean surely you can accommodate different life situations in your view of the world? I’m not saying if it is the spouse that justifies cheating. But if you want to get to the root cause of a behavior, consider both internal and external factors.[/quote]

NP. I am very disturbed by your inability to acknowledge that your framing is just a way of blaming the spouse.

In a mature, adult relationship, people express their needs explicitly and verbally and negotiate for them to be met. In a mature, adult relationship, people acknowledge that one partner is not going to be able to meet all their needs and they negotiate about or create the other relationships in their life that meet those needs - but in a monogamous marriage that is done explicitly, transparently and honestly and can involve other non-sexual friendships and activities and, by mutual partner consent, other sexual relationship (which can vary widely in type and May or may not involve third parties).

A core part of the work that many abusers have to do in therapy is to stop blaming others for their feelings and explore the connection between what happens to them and in their life and why they respond with certain feelings and whether those feelings are reasonably sized, appropriate for the situation, provoke effective response/solutions and are manageable.

Your view - that another Human #1 is responsible for Human #2’s happiness, fulfillment of all/any needs, to feel loved, desired, etc. — is at its core the belief that drives abuse. I literally do not have the power to make another human being feel any specific feeling. I may send my actions into the world with the intention of making another person feel loved, but the reality is that how my actions are received and interpreted is solely within the control of the recipient.

Your logic is no different than saying that a woman who is hit by a man because he feels angry or insulted or ill-served is the cause of his abuse.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I think people cheat because they feel unloved, unappreciated, undesired.

Yes, they may still love their partner very much. Even be in love with them and want to stay in the marriage. But some of their fundamental needs are going unmet so they cheat to feel satisfied again. To feel like it’s ok for them to have needs, which are often getting shut down due to issues in the primary relationship.

It just isn’t so black and white like you love someone and so you don’t want anyone else. I really believe that if your needs are satisfied and you feel good then cheating won’t be appealing — why put in the energy? If people do there has to be a reason.

This is complete BS and you are a cheater’s apologist. Read this thread. Many, many people cheat because of childhood trauma, sexual abuse, narcissism, mania, etc. Despite what open marriage guy wants you to believe, cheating almost never has anything to do with the spouse.

I didn’t say it had to do with the spouse. I think if your needs are not being met in the relationship you need to do some work to dig deeper and look at why. Maybe it has to do with your spouse. Maybe it’s you. Maybe it’s the dynamic.

Regardless, we are talking about two different things. I’m talking about why people feel motivated to cheat. Why the desire exists. You’re talking about why in the sense of a justification.

NO. You cannot place that on the spouse. Some of these people who didn't have mommy or daddy's attention, or one of them walked out on the family, or there was an alcoholic parent (and the family learned to lie to cover for it--which sets the pattern for ease with lying and compartmentalization), domestic or emotional abuse in the home. These people grow up in midlife and equate 'DRAMA' or 'STRIFE' with being loved or 'family'. So--when their home life is stable and everything is good at home---they seek out the drama and external validation from outside partners. The feeling of unease and thrill and lying. People like this can have the best spouse in the world, AND still be having sex at home. Nobody would be able to fill their deficiencies---no matter how smart, intelligent, loving and sexy--over time. These people need to address their inner void. Brain imaging scans show that kids that suffered that type of strife in their childhood homes have actual brain changes, pre-narcissism ,bpd, etc. Continued therapy to address their coping skills and to address their inner child and void can make them whole again. The problem is, so many of these people completely blow up their lives/relationships instead of doing this hard work---and/or they think nothing is wrong with them--it's always someone else's fault.

Right. And that’s why I said they have to dig deeper and maybe it’s them.

Sometimes it’s not though. Sometimes it is the spouse. I mean surely you can accommodate different life situations in your view of the world? I’m not saying if it is the spouse that justifies cheating. But if you want to get to the root cause of a behavior, consider both internal and external factors.

In my case it was my physically, verbally and emotionally abusive spouse. But it was also my inability to leave him instead of cheat.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I think people cheat because they feel unloved, unappreciated, undesired.

Yes, they may still love their partner very much. Even be in love with them and want to stay in the marriage. But some of their fundamental needs are going unmet so they cheat to feel satisfied again. To feel like it’s ok for them to have needs, which are often getting shut down due to issues in the primary relationship.

It just isn’t so black and white like you love someone and so you don’t want anyone else. I really believe that if your needs are satisfied and you feel good then cheating won’t be appealing — why put in the energy? If people do there has to be a reason.

This is complete BS and you are a cheater’s apologist. Read this thread. Many, many people cheat because of childhood trauma, sexual abuse, narcissism, mania, etc. Despite what open marriage guy wants you to believe, cheating almost never has anything to do with the spouse.

I didn’t say it had to do with the spouse. I think if your needs are not being met in the relationship you need to do some work to dig deeper and look at why. Maybe it has to do with your spouse. Maybe it’s you. Maybe it’s the dynamic.

Regardless, we are talking about two different things. I’m talking about why people feel motivated to cheat. Why the desire exists. You’re talking about why in the sense of a justification.

NO. You cannot place that on the spouse. Some of these people who didn't have mommy or daddy's attention, or one of them walked out on the family, or there was an alcoholic parent (and the family learned to lie to cover for it--which sets the pattern for ease with lying and compartmentalization), domestic or emotional abuse in the home. These people grow up in midlife and equate 'DRAMA' or 'STRIFE' with being loved or 'family'. So--when their home life is stable and everything is good at home---they seek out the drama and external validation from outside partners. The feeling of unease and thrill and lying. People like this can have the best spouse in the world, AND still be having sex at home. Nobody would be able to fill their deficiencies---no matter how smart, intelligent, loving and sexy--over time. These people need to address their inner void. Brain imaging scans show that kids that suffered that type of strife in their childhood homes have actual brain changes, pre-narcissism ,bpd, etc. Continued therapy to address their coping skills and to address their inner child and void can make them whole again. The problem is, so many of these people completely blow up their lives/relationships instead of doing this hard work---and/or they think nothing is wrong with them--it's always someone else's fault.

Right. And that’s why I said they have to dig deeper and maybe it’s them.

Sometimes it’s not though. Sometimes it is the spouse. I mean surely you can accommodate different life situations in your view of the world? I’m not saying if it is the spouse that justifies cheating. But if you want to get to the root cause of a behavior, consider both internal and external factors.

Yes, they may still love their partner very much. Even be in love with them and want to stay in the marriage. But some of their fundamental needs are going unmet so they cheat to feel satisfied again. To feel like it’s ok for them to have needs, which are often getting shut down due to issues in the primary relationship.

These people usually don't even articulate these needs to the spouse before looking to the outside. Some of this is due to 'toxic masculinity' and childhood needs having been ignored. They bury everything down inside and the extracurricular partner/sex is a numbing of those issues/pain. It's temporary. They usually end up feeling worse about themselves when they actually slow down. These are the people that when they blow up a great marriage with a wife they loved dearly, they sit there shell-shocked and can't believe they did this. It often takes a partner leaving --these are the same people begging, pleading, crying, doing anything to win the spouse back.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I think people cheat because they feel unloved, unappreciated, undesired.

Yes, they may still love their partner very much. Even be in love with them and want to stay in the marriage. But some of their fundamental needs are going unmet so they cheat to feel satisfied again. To feel like it’s ok for them to have needs, which are often getting shut down due to issues in the primary relationship.

It just isn’t so black and white like you love someone and so you don’t want anyone else. I really believe that if your needs are satisfied and you feel good then cheating won’t be appealing — why put in the energy? If people do there has to be a reason.

This is complete BS and you are a cheater’s apologist. Read this thread. Many, many people cheat because of childhood trauma, sexual abuse, narcissism, mania, etc. Despite what open marriage guy wants you to believe, cheating almost never has anything to do with the spouse.

I didn’t say it had to do with the spouse. I think if your needs are not being met in the relationship you need to do some work to dig deeper and look at why. Maybe it has to do with your spouse. Maybe it’s you. Maybe it’s the dynamic.

Regardless, we are talking about two different things. I’m talking about why people feel motivated to cheat. Why the desire exists. You’re talking about why in the sense of a justification.

NO. You cannot place that on the spouse. Some of these people who didn't have mommy or daddy's attention, or one of them walked out on the family, or there was an alcoholic parent (and the family learned to lie to cover for it--which sets the pattern for ease with lying and compartmentalization), domestic or emotional abuse in the home. These people grow up in midlife and equate 'DRAMA' or 'STRIFE' with being loved or 'family'. So--when their home life is stable and everything is good at home---they seek out the drama and external validation from outside partners. The feeling of unease and thrill and lying. People like this can have the best spouse in the world, AND still be having sex at home. Nobody would be able to fill their deficiencies---no matter how smart, intelligent, loving and sexy--over time. These people need to address their inner void. Brain imaging scans show that kids that suffered that type of strife in their childhood homes have actual brain changes, pre-narcissism ,bpd, etc. Continued therapy to address their coping skills and to address their inner child and void can make them whole again. The problem is, so many of these people completely blow up their lives/relationships instead of doing this hard work---and/or they think nothing is wrong with them--it's always someone else's fault.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I think people cheat because they feel unloved, unappreciated, undesired.

Yes, they may still love their partner very much. Even be in love with them and want to stay in the marriage. But some of their fundamental needs are going unmet so they cheat to feel satisfied again. To feel like it’s ok for them to have needs, which are often getting shut down due to issues in the primary relationship.

It just isn’t so black and white like you love someone and so you don’t want anyone else. I really believe that if your needs are satisfied and you feel good then cheating won’t be appealing — why put in the energy? If people do there has to be a reason.

This is complete BS and you are a cheater’s apologist. Read this thread. Many, many people cheat because of childhood trauma, sexual abuse, narcissism, mania, etc. Despite what open marriage guy wants you to believe, cheating almost never has anything to do with the spouse.

I didn’t say it had to do with the spouse. I think if your needs are not being met in the relationship you need to do some work to dig deeper and look at why. Maybe it has to do with your spouse. Maybe it’s you. Maybe it’s the dynamic.

Regardless, we are talking about two different things. I’m talking about why people feel motivated to cheat. Why the desire exists. You’re talking about why in the sense of a justification.

Anonymous wrote:
I think people cheat because they feel unloved, unappreciated, undesired.

Yes, they may still love their partner very much. Even be in love with them and want to stay in the marriage. But some of their fundamental needs are going unmet so they cheat to feel satisfied again. To feel like it’s ok for them to have needs, which are often getting shut down due to issues in the primary relationship.

It just isn’t so black and white like you love someone and so you don’t want anyone else. I really believe that if your needs are satisfied and you feel good then cheating won’t be appealing — why put in the energy? If people do there has to be a reason.

This is complete BS and you are a cheater’s apologist. Read this thread. Many, many people cheat because of childhood trauma, sexual abuse, narcissism, mania, etc. Despite what open marriage guy wants you to believe, cheating almost never has anything to do with the spouse.

Anonymous wrote:I think people cheat because they feel unloved, unappreciated, undesired.

Yes, they may still love their partner very much. Even be in love with them and want to stay in the marriage. But some of their fundamental needs are going unmet so they cheat to feel satisfied again. To feel like it’s ok for them to have needs, which are often getting shut down due to issues in the primary relationship.

It just isn’t so black and white like you love someone and so you don’t want anyone else. I really believe that if your needs are satisfied and you feel good then cheating won’t be appealing — why put in the energy? If people do there has to be a reason.

Excluding people with sex addictions or other issues that make them fundamentally ambivalent about monogamy, I mean. I’m just talking about cases where the person would in theory be satisfied with having sex with one person if they could get their needs met.

I think this is also at the root of a confusion people have about what it means to be committed to their partner. Many cheating people, commonly men, believe they are or feel they are still committed to their wives while they cheat. They still love and want to stay married to them. What they don’t see is that commitment isn’t just to a person or a state of affairs. Commitment in a relationship means you commit to getting your needs met in the relationship. Unfortunately people don’t see marriage that way, on both sides.