Anonymous
10/25/2021 18:13
Subject: “They need cleaned up”
Anonymous wrote:There's also such a thing as horrible usage of the English language.
This. These people don’t know proper grammar.
Anonymous
10/25/2021 18:05
Subject: “They need cleaned up”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I haven’t heard this one before. Where’s the linguist? Come back! I need to know!Anonymous wrote:Please help me understand this one: DH drops “with” from phrases like “I’m done dinner” or “I’m done work”
I’m not a linguist but I’ve noticed this is something that many (all?) Canadians do.
I'm Canadian and didn't realize this was not the correct way.
Anonymous
10/25/2021 17:59
Subject: “They need cleaned up”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It's called regional English. You probably speak some too, and don't know it.
Uh, no. Because I’ve had an excellent education.
DP. I say "needs washed," among other regionalisms.
I have a PhD. In linguistics, fwiw.
Anonymous
10/25/2021 17:36
Subject: “They need cleaned up”
Anonymous wrote:It's called regional English. You probably speak some too, and don't know it.
Uh, no. Because I’ve had an excellent education.
Anonymous
10/25/2021 17:29
Subject: “They need cleaned up”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It’s regional. And it sounds fine to my Chicago ears!
None of my Chicago family say this. We are half north siders and half south siders. There are plenty of Chicago regionalisms but this is not one of them. If you want to talk about the "frunch room" or dese, dem, and dose, then that's another thing.
My DH's family is from northwest Indiana and they say this too.
Anonymous
10/25/2021 15:03
Subject: “They need cleaned up”
Anonymous wrote:I haven’t heard this one before. Where’s the linguist? Come back! I need to know!Anonymous wrote:Please help me understand this one: DH drops “with” from phrases like “I’m done dinner” or “I’m done work”
I’m not a linguist but I’ve noticed this is something that many (all?) Canadians do.
Anonymous
10/25/2021 15:02
Subject: “They need cleaned up”
It's called regional English. You probably speak some too, and don't know it.
Anonymous
10/25/2021 14:59
Subject: “They need cleaned up”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I’m a linguist and when people use these things I love it! The samification of American English is a drag. Give me more regional oddities!
Do you have a blog? What have you collected so far? We are here to help!
Anonymous
10/25/2021 13:22
Subject: Re:“They need cleaned up”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I don't mind slang and regional speak, but I don't like this phrasing, because I get confused at what's being said. Past tense, present tense? I wouldn't know what to think.
It's future imperfect continuous.
No way dude it's Subjunctive
Without to be, it is subjunctive. With to be, it is future imperfect continuous. OP isn't familiar with the subjunctive and needs a familiar tense to process the sentence.
Oh I see what you are saying. I also enjoy the construction I heard from someone in NC "Oh I used'ta could" meaning I used to be able to do something.
I'm the original PP and I love when a grammar "argument" breaks out.I'm in STEM and don't have a deep understanding of some of these tenses so I'll be looking them up. And to the person who asked if I wouldn't understand what was meant if someone handed me a dish, yes I would, but I think my brain would freeze for a moment, before I took the dish. It's just my familiarity with the phrase.
I am in the E in STEM. Even perfect English grammar is ambiguous in many respects. I also work with ESL coworkers, so insisting on perfect grammar is really quite pointless. Part of being an English speaker is knowing when something is "good enough." Even some programming languages, despite their seeming rigidity, have ambiguous constructs that are implemented inconsistently. If you want something that is completely unambiguous, I believe the only choice is mathematical proofs.
It's not about perfect grammar so much as making sure the person you are speaking with can understand what is being said. Using bizarre regional constructs, idioms, and colloquialism doesn't really help in that effort when someone's first language isn't English.
That's my point. Perfect grammar is likely to be confusing. Why do we need the "helper" verb to be? It's making the subjunctive tense into some imperfect tense. You have no idea which exists in the foreign speakers language. So keep the helper words to a minimum. How would I write the sentence for an ESL: They need cleaning. Clean up is an idiom that doesn't translate. Up to where?
Because there is standard and non standard. If everyone just makes up their own rules on what sounds right things only get more confusing. ESL learners are learning standard English, not some backwater smalltown-ese someone's meemaw and papaw grew up speaking.
Yes, I am sure they spend days covering the imperfect tenses in ESL. Just avoid complicated, grammatically correct, English. The fewer words, the better.
Anonymous
10/25/2021 12:59
Subject: Re:“They need cleaned up”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I don't mind slang and regional speak, but I don't like this phrasing, because I get confused at what's being said. Past tense, present tense? I wouldn't know what to think.
It's future imperfect continuous.
No way dude it's Subjunctive
Without to be, it is subjunctive. With to be, it is future imperfect continuous. OP isn't familiar with the subjunctive and needs a familiar tense to process the sentence.
Oh I see what you are saying. I also enjoy the construction I heard from someone in NC "Oh I used'ta could" meaning I used to be able to do something.
I'm the original PP and I love when a grammar "argument" breaks out.
I am in the E in STEM. Even perfect English grammar is ambiguous in many respects. I also work with ESL coworkers, so insisting on perfect grammar is really quite pointless. Part of being an English speaker is knowing when something is "good enough." Even some programming languages, despite their seeming rigidity, have ambiguous constructs that are implemented inconsistently. If you want something that is completely unambiguous, I believe the only choice is mathematical proofs.
It's not about perfect grammar so much as making sure the person you are speaking with can understand what is being said. Using bizarre regional constructs, idioms, and colloquialism doesn't really help in that effort when someone's first language isn't English.
I teach English to adults and idioms and colloquialisms are a very big part of teaching. They are incredibly important for conversational English.
I had a boss who never understood them, so I learned to adjust my speech in a way that was more professional and so we could understand each other. I didn't realize how many I used until this communication issue. There are other ways to get the point across when not everyone is as familiar with them. Isn't that part of code switching?
Anonymous
10/25/2021 12:55
Subject: Re:“They need cleaned up”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I don't mind slang and regional speak, but I don't like this phrasing, because I get confused at what's being said. Past tense, present tense? I wouldn't know what to think.
It's future imperfect continuous.
No way dude it's Subjunctive
Without to be, it is subjunctive. With to be, it is future imperfect continuous. OP isn't familiar with the subjunctive and needs a familiar tense to process the sentence.
Oh I see what you are saying. I also enjoy the construction I heard from someone in NC "Oh I used'ta could" meaning I used to be able to do something.
I'm the original PP and I love when a grammar "argument" breaks out.
I am in the E in STEM. Even perfect English grammar is ambiguous in many respects. I also work with ESL coworkers, so insisting on perfect grammar is really quite pointless. Part of being an English speaker is knowing when something is "good enough." Even some programming languages, despite their seeming rigidity, have ambiguous constructs that are implemented inconsistently. If you want something that is completely unambiguous, I believe the only choice is mathematical proofs.
It's not about perfect grammar so much as making sure the person you are speaking with can understand what is being said. Using bizarre regional constructs, idioms, and colloquialism doesn't really help in that effort when someone's first language isn't English.
That's my point. Perfect grammar is likely to be confusing. Why do we need the "helper" verb to be? It's making the subjunctive tense into some imperfect tense. You have no idea which exists in the foreign speakers language. So keep the helper words to a minimum. How would I write the sentence for an ESL: They need cleaning. Clean up is an idiom that doesn't translate. Up to where?
Because there is standard and non standard. If everyone just makes up their own rules on what sounds right things only get more confusing. ESL learners are learning standard English, not some backwater smalltown-ese someone's meemaw and papaw grew up speaking.
Anonymous
10/25/2021 11:38
Subject: Re:“They need cleaned up”
Yinzers say it. I love Pittburghese!
-professional editor and daughter of two yinzers
-professional editor and daughter of two yinzers
Anonymous
10/25/2021 11:32
Subject: Re:“They need cleaned up”
Hmm... I'm not sure what happened to this discussion. Is this what happens when you get a few E's in STEM together to discuss grammar?
Anonymous
10/25/2021 11:14
Subject: Re:“They need cleaned up”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I don't mind slang and regional speak, but I don't like this phrasing, because I get confused at what's being said. Past tense, present tense? I wouldn't know what to think.
It's future imperfect continuous.
No way dude it's Subjunctive
Without to be, it is subjunctive. With to be, it is future imperfect continuous. OP isn't familiar with the subjunctive and needs a familiar tense to process the sentence.
Oh I see what you are saying. I also enjoy the construction I heard from someone in NC "Oh I used'ta could" meaning I used to be able to do something.
I'm the original PP and I love when a grammar "argument" breaks out.
I am in the E in STEM. Even perfect English grammar is ambiguous in many respects. I also work with ESL coworkers, so insisting on perfect grammar is really quite pointless. Part of being an English speaker is knowing when something is "good enough." Even some programming languages, despite their seeming rigidity, have ambiguous constructs that are implemented inconsistently. If you want something that is completely unambiguous, I believe the only choice is mathematical proofs.
It's not about perfect grammar so much as making sure the person you are speaking with can understand what is being said. Using bizarre regional constructs, idioms, and colloquialism doesn't really help in that effort when someone's first language isn't English.
That's my point. Perfect grammar is likely to be confusing. Why do we need the "helper" verb to be? It's making the subjunctive tense into some imperfect tense. You have no idea which exists in the foreign speakers language. So keep the helper words to a minimum. How would I write the sentence for an ESL: They need cleaning. Clean up is an idiom that doesn't translate. Up to where?
Anonymous
10/25/2021 11:04
Subject: “They need cleaned up”
I do this often, and while I myself did not grow up in Pittsburgh, I come from Western PA stock.